Jump to content
[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, MadMattPrime said:

How is it RIP? They clearly stated CO is going to be buffed from 60 to a higher number. I use 100% status zaw with 3 60/60 mods depending on faction and on average depending on IPS RNG I proc mostly 2-3 status effects on an enemy as either the status slips off the target or the slash procs already killed them. Higher % is still higher damage numbers.

 

Its more like RIP quick melee lifestrike the reliable healing for us solo endurance players. Don't say "we have pizzas for that", we all know 2 lifestrike quick melees heal most frames to full. Having to make heavy attacks creates a window for enemies to kill us.

You procs 2-3 status on average? I have specific loadout/build that can proc 10-12 status in secs. 

CO/BR/MS and the current combo system all work exponentially together. Now the true power of melee seems to be nerfed to the ground and become much less effective overall. 

  • Haha 3
  • Applause 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Condition Overload - Now stacks at a maximum of 3 Status Effects, however damage is being increased from 60% to a higher percent to balance the change.

It feels like weapons that already pretty overpowered (like Gram Prime or Redeemer Prime) will receive a buff, while pure status weapons (like Lesion) are going to trash.

If you want to nerf Condition Overload why wouldn't you just nerf the bonus damage percentage, while not limit its potential with the cap. If you reduce bonus damage from the current +60% to +40% numbers will look like this:

If an enemy have 8 statuses applied:

1.6 * 1.6 * 1.6 * 1.6 * 1.6 * 1.6 * 1.6 * 1.6 = ~43 (with +60% CO)

versus

1.4 * 1.4 * 1.4 * 1.4 * 1.4 * 1.4 * 1.4 * 1.4 = ~15 (with +40% CO)

So we go from x43 damage multiplier down to x15 damage multiplier (for 8 statuses), which is a MASSIVE nerf, yet it will keep one of the most fun game mechanics relevant.

Edited by Gluckogon
  • Upvote 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For once I'm gonna wait for it to come out and judge reading all this is fine but builds are something else 

  • Applause 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your intentions with the stance rework sound good; no more will we be propelled away by certain stances while trying to finish off a more stubborn enemy.

One point though, as an occasional user of glaives and particularly the Wolf Sledge, please please please do away with the really annoying half-swing before you actually start to throw the weapon. As it stands, throwing has such a long wind-up time - breaking fluidity and leaving you vulnerable - that it is very clunky and off-putting even with amalgam organ shatter equipped. The throw when dual-wielding is much better.

Otherwise, I can't wait to try this out!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of these changes look amazing but I have just one gripe.

Blood Rush / Weeping Wounds and Gladiator set bonus. As long as these mods are tied to the combo multiplier, I will likely never use a Heavy Attack with them equipped, it's just not worth it unless I can either reach the cap on the mod's stacks really quick, or I can rebuild the lost combos just as quick. Regardless of which one of the two, it will still be a DPS loss while I'm stacking the mods back up.

My suggestion for these is:

Make them reward the player for executing combos with a 5 seconds stacking buff that keeps refreshing as long as they don't spam the same combo continuously. This will drive players using those mods to not just spam W+E or W+Block+E over and over and instead play around with the full stance. As long as the same combo isn't repeated twice in a row, the buff would refresh and stack up, when the same combo is repeated, the buff will drop down in stacks and no longer refresh the duration.

Not only will this drive for more engaging gameplay, it will also no longer make one feel bad for using his combo meter on a heavy attack.

Edited by TheRealShade
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Condition Overload - Now stacks at a maximum of 3 Status Effects, however damage is being increased from 60% to a higher percent to balance the change. Final % to come. "

"Reach / Primed Reach - Will now increase range in a way that has been normalized. In the previous incarnation, long-range weapons were getting too much of a benefit, while short-range weapons were barely seeing any increase at all."

Why??? did anyone ever complained about this????

"
Maiming Strike - Changes from an additive buff to a stacking buff, but base functionality increased to a Significant % of the old version to balance the change. Final % to come soon."

 

So actually you're nerfing CO and Reach but buff MS ???? what is going on???

I'm so done with those random changes...


Fact is that you actually wanted to give more attention to melee , but with those changes everyone will drop their melee ...


Edit : in fact , i guess that's a way to give "endgame content" ....

 

 

Edited by Yemesis
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

blocking still involved in combos? Will it put the player into ranged mode after the combo is finished as of right now (even if you let go of the button long ago)? That's absolutely unacceptable. And please don't tell me to use the new hard melee only mode and I still can't use block combos in fluid mode.

 

Also maiming strike will remain most effective way of playing? Really?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding the new arsenal UI, it'd be nice to have an operator tab there where focus, amps, magus arcanes, and virtuos arcanes can be changed out and profiled without having to faff about with the pause menu and transference chamber UI.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Yemesis said:


"Maiming Strike - Changes from an additive buff to a stacking buff, but base functionality increased to a Significant % of the old version to balance the change. Final % to come soon."

So actually you're nerfing CO and Reach but buff MS ???? what is going on???

Current maiming strike is a straight up addition of 90% to a weapon when doing the slide attack, so a low 5% crit chance weapon would get 95% on slide attack.  With the change, we'll keep it at 90% for ease here, 5% would be 9.5% on that first attack.  Yes it stacks but it will never be able to make a low crit weapon crit viable, that is a huge nerf anyway you try and sell it. 

Luckily I don't actually build around it so I'm more concerned with other changes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While you guys are looking at Dodge can you finally revert the animation priority issue cause with the attempted QT nerf a long time ago so stagger no longer overrides it? Ever since that revert a frame can get pulled out of a Dodge roll in spite of being immune to CC during the dodge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, LSG501 said:

Current maiming strike is a straight up addition of 90% to a weapon when doing the slide attack, so a low 5% crit chance weapon would get 95% on slide attack.  With the change, we'll keep it at 90% for ease here, 5% would be 9.5% on that first attack.  Yes it stacks but it will never be able to make a low crit weapon crit viable, that is a huge nerf anyway you try and sell it. 

Luckily I don't actually build around it so I'm more concerned with other changes.

I'm using a Scoliac as horde clearing weapon (room full of moas spread out everywhere is a pain to deal with in "legit" ways). Luckily I haven't spent a single plat on my setup and I have several alternatives to fall back on but someone who spent silly amount of plat on a Scoliac Riven is going to get burned...

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've said that on another post, but... by reducing the cap of status procs on CO and raising the damage percent, you'll actually make killing enemies faster, so there's a whole lot of implications: you'll depend less on tanky frames/heavy healing to go melee, you won't have to spend a whole lot of your build off of that, which takes time to build and even though you might be the kind that likes seeing big numbers, on an actual mission that's not pretty viable because while you're setting all that up, you're either on a tanking situation that anything else could be applied, or you're getting yourself killed and start using the full extent of your build less and less...
And let's be honest, applying 8+ status procs sounds a lot like a thing that should only be optimal on a boss/miniboss battle, rather than a thing you should be using on a horde of enemies, isn't it?
And about maiming strike, those changes look really ambiguous. What do you mean for "stacking buff"? Like, each slide attack landed in a 3 second window adds +15% crit chance kind of stacking buff? Or stacking as it stacks with the other crit mods as a simple percentage mod?

Now, I'm REALLY curious as to what'll happen to:

-Saryn's Toxic Lash damage reduction buff on blocking (raw damage reduction? block angle increase?)
-Zenurik's passive that increases channeling efficiency (Like, I dont think it'll relate to heavy attacks or combo counter because it doesnt fit the Zenurik "energy related" niche, so... what will happen to it?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The new fluidity and variety of melee attacks is incredible! I can't wait to play it! It seems much more flexible and and player-controlled than the current melee system. Particularly interested in the (for lack of a different term) combo chaining, which I think will probably make combos a lot more fun to use. Thank you for all your hard work!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Unimira said:

I'm using a Scoliac as horde clearing weapon (room full of moas spread out everywhere is a pain to deal with in "legit" ways). Luckily I haven't spent a single plat on my setup and I have several alternatives to fall back on but someone who spent silly amount of plat on a Scoliac Riven is going to get burned...

I actually got a scoliac riven by luck... don't even use it and couldn't be bothered to sell it just in case this rework made whips enjoyable, which seems doubtful at this moment lol.

Actually that made me think... wonder how much the nerfs will hurt on melee rivens when they get their dispo changes to compensate for this rework....

Edited by LSG501

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Neutral Combo (Melee button only) - Hard hitting, movement-free attacks to allow a player to destroy their target

This would be good if and only if "movement free" means "does not interfere with player movement". From what I've seen of Donkey Kong's ultimate, his neutral combo is utterly terrible because it still glues you to the floor. The forward combo is OK... but that's only good if you're actively going forward all the time. It's extremely common where I'm going to be moving in all directions, or not moving and then suddenly wanting to move. Dodging to interrupt is not a good answer because it moves you too far, even the "tactical" dodge is still going to be too much in some situations.

If I'm still going to get glued into place or rocketed away in some random direction, then spin attacks are still going to be the best form of combat - maiming strike or not.

Secondly, it looks like we're still going to be denied our syndicate procs or the ability to alt-fire immediately without having to go through a mode change. Syndicate procs especially - the whole reason why syndicate weapons held their own niche is because it could charge up, detonate and refill all while you were meleeing from squadmate XP. Take that away and there is no longer a reason to use a Sanctigris over a Tigris Prime.

Edited by DoomFruit
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How does the Javlok amalgam mod work now that channelling is going? You need to channel to reflect. I can't see anything about this mechanic, or what is happening to the mod.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like melee is now a low level option only. Unless they plan to remove scaling content altogether.

Capping condition overload,  turning maiming strike into just another basic crit buff and turning the combo counter into an expendable resource that is drained with every heavy attack rendering bloodrush ineffective for large portions of combat are all incredible nerfs. 

These are fine provided you give players different scaling options.

If heavy attacks were to do fixed percentages of enemy health based on combo counter,  then melee could focus on building combo quickly,  using it efficiently and increasing heavy attack damage % per combo spent. 

If you do not provide additional scaling options for melee all of your hard work on this system only serves to render it obsolete. 

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After reading through all the upcoming changes, I personally believe that this is an amazing step in the right direction. Though, there is one thing that’s bothering me more personally.

19 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Gladiator Mod Set - Adds a multiplier with the Combo Counter up to 60% for the whole set.

What exactly do you mean by this? Will this be the normal scaling crit multiplier we have with the current Gladiator Mod Set/Blood Rush, or will it be something completely different like a multiplicative damage buff? This change is bothering me mainly because of its vagueness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vor 3 Stunden schrieb Gravemind93:

If I'm doing a Hidden Flourish with my Plague Kripath rapier, I'll do substantially more damage if I channel as opposed to fitting for combo counters because I would simply lose too much up-front damage. Y'know why? Cause it's a short string and there's no time to build for super maximum combo-counter numbers. "But what if I can't kill them with a short combo/string? Then counters make sense!"-Sure but it doesn't make sense why you're going into a mission planning on spending longer than you probably have to just to see that number go big-high-yay.

thats because this specific charge attack is pretty special. rapiers as a whole are pretty special simply due to vulpine mask forcing slash proccs non-stop, which means u can get away with only dmg increase since u will force these proccs even without any good status chance. wiith other specific stances which force slash like cyclone kraken u could also get away with it, but u could as well use the better alternatives to increase flat dps.

i dont ususally use combo counter builds but even i know that u can build ur combo counter to 3.5 pretty easily, especially with rapiers so even this argument of urs only applies when u attack an enemy for the first time in a mission, but if u ignore the ramp up of combo builds right now then ur point is pretty much invalid.

also, ever thought that there is a statistical reason for the removal of channeling ? noone uses it.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Gravemind93:

Y'know why?

because its bad.

spending energy for a weak pseudo-crit is not a good way to increase ur dps when u have much better alternatives, especially considering u sacrifice at least 2 slots for it to make it at least half way usable and a riven with these stats is a wasted slot, i tried that myself and its a huge disappointment in comparison.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't understand why people freak out so badly.

Except for the users (or more like, abuser) of Maiming strike which get a long overdue nerf, overall the change looks pretty amazing. I'm a bit concerned about how Glaive and other throwing weapons will work after that tho.

- Base damage will get buffed massively. If I'm now wrong, current maximum damage buff on combo is x3. So if they buff the base damage by this much, it will be like having a constant maximum combo counter.

- Covert Lethality is removed but will get added to the new "weapon slot" so no loss there.

- CO lose the ability to apply more than 3 status. Okay, that hurts my Rad/Viral Quatz + Gaz Glaive Prime combo (which is insanely strong btw) but it will get both buffed in term of percentage provided AND base damage buff will still be there.

- Blood Rush is nerfed/changed. Welp, that one was long overdue too. I still think it won't be a strong nerf however considering they say building combo counter tier will also be easier.

 

Overall the change looks good. The instant switch is still there. The new combos looks far better than what we currently have, the heavy attack don't look bad...

I think we really should see the numbers before freaking out. A lot of things will depends on the new base damage, and the % buff/nerf of CO and BR.

Edited by Isokaze_BestKaze
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the moment, I'm curious about how the Parazon is going to play into all this, since it will be a default part of every Tenno's loadout that can equip Covert Lethality. 

I just like the idea of being able to bring any melee weapon I want to a mission, yet still having a way to instantly execute heavy units without needing a dagger. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Sharkgoblin said:

 i used to go 4.5x with ash rising storm

oh no my ash

what is going to happen to him

fatal teleport invalidated by the removal of covert lethality

and rising storm? oh no

 OH NOO

This is what worries me the most.  Ash is a melee stealth frame who has been utterly slapped into Vaubans territory suddenly.

 

WHY WOULD YOU REMOVE COVERT LEATHALITY?!  Melee 3.0 isn't even touching it!  There was literally no reason!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, IRInsane said:

This is what worries me the most.  Ash is a melee stealth frame who has been utterly slapped into Vaubans territory suddenly.

 

WHY WOULD YOU REMOVE COVERT LEATHALITY?!  Melee 3.0 isn't even touching it!  There was literally no reason!

Dude , it will applied to Parazon,a knife EVERY warframe will have despite equipped melee, they're basically allowing you to have covert letality AND other weapon

  • Like 5
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

Dude , it will applied to Parazon,a knife EVERY warframe will have despite equipped melee, they're basically allowing you to have covert letality AND other weapon

This. Seriously, read things properly before freaking out, people...

Edited by Isokaze_BestKaze
  • Like 1
  • Applause 2
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

This. Seriously, read this properly before freaking out, people...

I feel like these people are just searching a specific word, reading a single line and then posting. 

  • Applause 2
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...