Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

[danitot]

19 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Condition Overload - Now stacks at a maximum of 3 Status Effects, however damage is being increased from 60% to a higher percent to balance the change. Final % to come. 

CO gave the opportunity to play around multiple sources for different status types. With this change, you grab eg.:IPS and you are done.
I think this change will discourage players using their whole arsenal in a mission, there will be no benefit. No squad diversity, no elemental diversity, etc.

[Azamagon]

Just a question; What's that Follow Through stat? Is it a damage loss factor when hitting multiple targets in one swing or something?

[SuperSmog]

RANGE: I hope that max range for higher range weapons will be only knocked down abit say from 8 to 7 (6.5 minimum) as it is melee and I would say that is a fair distance for a large weapon, but for like say a dagger/fist weapon bump it up to at say 4.5-5.25 meters max, because their damage and combos are already great ingame currently however its the range as you said for weapons like the tekko suffer from and what makes them irrelavant to things like polearms and heavy blades.

MOD CHANGES (apart from range): I think that the condition overload change is fine as by the time we have applied 3 status effects on an enemy anyway they are basically dead with a decnt combo counter already up for like lvl 80-110 enemies, so bonus dmg ontop of that with a buff from 60% dmg will actually feel basically the same if not slightly better. Now Blood rush I'm unclear on as based of the new description and the current one they sound to similar without any specific numbers being given in the new description, so we will have to wait for that and obv the devs will revert it if the numbers are terrible for the new one.

EVERYTHING ELSE: Pretty solid, it being easier and cooler to perform is great, it being more combo based than one shotting I agree with as the one shotting could completely nullify any future challenging content that intend on adding (which the liches might be with their whole eventually getting stronger thing), but I hope these base dmg stat changes will make them still feel as effective as my guns.

MELEE CHANGES: 8/10

MOD CHANGES: 7/10 (could be great like 8 or 9/10 if we are given numbers which are suitable to balance the melee system to the same power level as the gun system)

[Isokaze_BestKaze]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Dersu42 said:

It's the obvious decision to remove scaling modifiers from a game that has endless scaling content.

No matter what they decide on for new values, this philosophy will eventually come up short.

If they incorporated a scaling damage system into the new melee somewhere else, then these changes are fine.

But I don't see that.

If they wanted to remove the emphasis on spin attacks, then get rid if the spin attack modifier for maiming strike and rivens. 

Have it stack base crit chances per melee hit, similar to how berserk stacks melee attack speed. And have this apply to all melee attacks. Done.

Unless they introduce new mechanics that can carry melee into the highest levels of content, this latest update is going to hurt. 

But if the base damage is x3, it's essentially the same as the current combo counter... So scaling isn't there, BUT the damage is buffed so hard it replaces it.

Again it's a matter of percentage. If CO % is buffed enough, it will be as strong/stronger than the current CO. Blood Rush will be "modified" based on the new combo counter, not on the damage buff of the counter.

[Kawalorn]

So I guess Atlas's Landslide won't be getting any bonus damage from combo counter either? Too bad.

[Jessadactyl]

So how are the combo changes going to affect Atlas's Landslide ability? The changes to combo counter and how combos are stringed seem like they're going to affect how Landslide functions overall, and could easily break and build based around that ability. 

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

13 minutes ago, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

But if the base damage is x3, it's essentially the same as the current combo counter... So scaling isn't there, BUT the damage is buffed so hard it replaces it.

Again it's a matter of percentage. If CO % is buffed enough, it will be as strong/stronger than the current CO. Blood Rush will be "modified" based on the new combo counter, not on the damage buff of the counter.

I rather see the percent lowered with more procs than higher with less procs if they are going to nerf it. Because it'll just be rewarding weapon with less procs like weapons like gram p atterax and such slash monsters getting all procs from ips and weeping wounds than builds that can proc multiple procs. That condition overload cap isnt the way to go.

[KitMeHarder]

• It'd be nice if we could rebind stance combos to whichever button-mash we prefer. Rebinding per stance instead of for each weapon is fine (maybe even preferable), and should be much less memory/server intensive.
• This has been bugging me since its inception. But if you could have Umbra use Exalted Blade, or have him redraw it after I toggle operator mode, that'd be really nice. Because it really kills the "dynamic duo" vibe when I have to waste time and energy to re-draw Exalted Blade every time I need to use my operator.
• If combo is no longer affecting the damage of melee weapons, make sure to not forget pseudo-exalteds in your stat re-balance. 
  • Ability 1 of Khora, Atlas, Gara, Excalibur
  • Ash's Blade Storm
  • Etc...

[MadMattPrime]

4 hours ago, George_PPS said:

You procs 2-3 status on average? I have specific loadout/build that can proc 10-12 status in secs. 

CO/BR/MS and the current combo system all work exponentially together. Now the true power of melee seems to be nerfed to the ground and become much less effective overall. 

Read My post as I stated enemies are either dead due to slash procs killing them or the status has SLIPPED off because negative status duration rivens exist, 2-3 status procs froms +Damage rivens and Primed Pressure Point with condition overload  is more than enough to kill enemies below level 250.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

Please for the love of God don’t put a cap on the amount of status effects Condition Overload will stack the melee damage buff. That’ll be a hard nerf for any endurance player utilizing status to deal scaling damage against enemies in Survival/Defense missions. It’ll only promote the playerbase to use generic melee loadouts instead of diversifying their full arsenal and warframe to strategize their dps on the field.

Basically we’ll just be unga-bunga-ing with CO instead of planning ahead of what we can do to utilize CO to its fullest potential (Warframe status procs, primary/secondary status procs/Companion status procs).

If you’re going to cap the amount of status effects Condition Overload is going to utilize and increase the melee damage multiplier to compensate for it, that’ll be poor foresight and execution on how this mod was used for endurance play. Please reconsider, DE. 

[(PSN)AchiXes]

Awesome, thank you so much for this. I've been waiting all year and the wait has been worth it. 

Can yall add a lock on system at some point for example ff15 or kh

[Vactro]

I like pretty much everything EXCEPT two things:

- Heavy Attacks/Slams consume ALL of the combo counter.

- Life Strike requires you to do heavy attacks.

Both are actually connected, and it would be nice if they could be tweaked somehow. Mostly the first one so sending your counter to heal a bit doesn't feel so bad.

[Talon881]

I will give this a chance, but my initial impression is as follows:

Nerfs. You cut condition overloads damage in half, critical weapons just got burned into the ground because crit combo mult got turned into a gimmicky hover hoover giver, and status weapons will now reign supreme over the crit based weapons rotting corpses. Oh, and riven changes so more nerfs there.
Oh, and loss of channeling which means harder stealth missions/focus farming, and loss of damage.

But hey we can float a few enemies and smack them so it looks cooler yay....

Overall, this seems like a heavy handed course correction of a 18 wheeler to the problem of a duck crossing the road.

[Isokaze_BestKaze]

Again, people, WAIT FOR THE ACTUAL NUMBERS.

How hard it is to understand...

For example, if new CO is 120% instead of 60%,  3 status effect will give base damage x 2.20^3. That's as strong as current 1.6 with FIVE status effect.

[(PSN)StarDustKillah]

- Condition Overload being capped at 3 statuses honestly kills the enjoyment of playing around with incorporating more statuses in my loadouts

I'm not really a fan of fun mods with unique functionality being clipped. PLEASE consider just Nerfing it's +60% damage per status proc instead DE!

- Heavy Attack already feel like a *MASSIVE* Improvement to channeling. Even if they possibly may see minimal use. The Lift status give every warframe some form of CC. Which is waaaaay more than what current channeling can say. Hopefully it translates well... AND I'M PRAYING That HEAVY ATTACKS give way to useful interactions for HARDER ENEMIES AND CONTENT! An example is maybe enemies like thumper? Maybe once when one of his legs' Shield Plating is removed... Heavy Melee attacks don't need to hit the specified weak point to hurt that limb... Just hit ANYWHERE on the limb! Heavy attacks would see a lot of use if enemies where designed more like that

- I CANNOT wait to see what Rage Mode looks like!!!

Looking for to when this update hits console!

[Bioboygamer]

@[DE]Bear Sorry if this is bothering you, but I think it might be very useful to know...

How does the feedback so far line up with what you were expecting?

What concerns have people raised that you anticipated?

What are some concerns and feedback that you didn't expect?

Is there any feedback that isn't necessarily valid given Warframe's design direction and goals?

As an example, some people are concerned that the removal of channeling will cause Life Strike to no longer be an effective way for more fragile frames to stay alive. Is that something you weren't anticipating, or were you aware that it might be an issue?

Also, in particular, a lot of feedback is predicting that the changes will remove melee's ability to deal scaling damage, and as such will make it difficult or even impossible to do endurance/endless runs with high-level enemies. Is that an unintended consequence of the changes, or a deliberate design decision?

I feel that knowing some of these things would help us to give more useful and more accurate feedback - we could refrain from repeating feedback that you're already aware of, and focus on the things that would truly help to fine-tune the melee system.

[Dragazer]

21 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Condition Overload - Now stacks at a maximum of 3 Status Effects, however damage is being increased from 60% to a higher percent to balance the change. Final % to come. 

1 hour ago, danitot said:

CO gave the opportunity to play around multiple sources for different status types. With this change, you grab eg.:IPS and you are done.
I think this change will discourage players using their whole arsenal in a mission, there will be no benefit. No squad diversity, no elemental diversity, etc.

Agreed, CO should not be touched. It is nowhere near maiming strike's slot-in-and-forget brainless macro spam. Maintaining multiple status effects require managing proc timers and had to be reapplied for each new enemy. CO encourages and rewards you for mix gunplay with melee and planning your loadout with different elements to maximize its potential along with your squads.

The proposed change will kill this interaction.

[(NSW)zook-pl]

5 hours ago, HolySeraphin said:

Do you know that to reach 3.5x you have to hit 405 times, don't you? And to reach 4.0x you must hit 1,215 times. Most people don't reach/need these numbers, even for lvl 160 enemies.

That’s true. In normal gameplay counter don’t exceed 3-3,5x taking to 4x take long time, 4,5x is for nolifes, how much time one must spend in game to hit 4,5x or 5x?

I start to thinking most people complaining here is just scared of change.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Lol look at all those slaty people mad because their favourite build got nerfed 

Just accept change

Melee is bland, boring and numb 

These changes is going to rethink how you play melee

 

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)zook-pl said:

That’s true. In normal gameplay counter don’t exceed 3-3,5x taking to 4x take long time, 4,5x is for nolifes, how much time one must spend in game to hit 4,5x or 5x?

I start to thinking most people complaining here is just scared of change.

I average about 1000+ kills with melee before the 30min mark if unless im 2shotting everything, which im not, i'll have atleast a 4x combo before i hit 30min.

[Quickbash]

I don't understand why you didn't make manual blocking use the aim button instead. I seriously don't get it. It's right there. It's such a simple solution.

Why would it matter being able to aim down sights when switching from melee?

Press melee to pull out sword = you get manual block as well on the aim button

Press shoot to pull out gun = you get aim down sights as well on the aim button

They each get their own state, and you keep the flow of it, best of both worlds in 1.

Is it because of sniper rifles? Then make a "Aim is manual block" gameplay toggle option. People that love snipers don't care to get close anyway, correct? Or just make snipers work the current way, and let every other weapon use the shoot to pull out gun way. 

Beyond this, I really see no reason to rollback to the clunky ways of holding a button. It's nonsense. We can have both in 1. Don't give us a rollback and call it a feature.

And if we can get channel hold back as well until rage comes out, that'd be swell too!

 

Air juggling - from what i've seen in the devstream, slam was one of the ways to lift enemies up. Naturally, I hope this isn't the only way. Jump>Go downward>Jump Again is really jarring design for air juggling, so i hope combos get some form of lift move. The best way to do this is like any hack and slash does it. Backwards + Melee. You have Forwards + Melee combos, you can do backwards. Steve said you guys are taking inspiration from DMC, so do it right!

Also when's Enemy Step.

[Kings17]

Over all, I do like these changes, it looks like a breath of fresh air,

but I am concerned about the combo meter changes, These changes have me worried that all of my current crit builds need to be completely redone.

SO I was wondering if you could give us an example of what the changes would do for our current builds.

you could post a current meta crit build that we might see anywhere, one of the youtube builds or a basic blood rush build, then but it next to the the phase too changed build, that way, we can see the impact of the new system more directly.

I also have a bit of fears of tying the combo counter purely to the heavy attack option, as it seems to make the base melee attacks far less gratifying. I haven't played with the new system, so I'll reserve most of my judgment, but much of the current game play is tied with a growing sense of building power with your base melee attacks. And while I admit that it does need to change, to remove this completely after the entire community is so use to this feels a little jarring. I'm not sure how useful that is, but it is my current opinion.

my final concern would be on warframe builds, such as wukong, who's current meta are wholly reliant on the crits. Using him as example, is it possible to see how he plays with the new system?

Overall I do really like the changes, but again, the changes to crit do have me a little concerned, 

thank you for your time.

[LordChronos]

Dear DE,

Could we have some awesome sidesteps and shadow-dodging instead of the old roll? Maybe have certain frames have different looking dodges and side-steps and dash-dodging. 

Make them unique to each character, like if Ember does a dodge/roll, double-jump  or something, she's on fire or something. Volt can be all lightning and electricity when he dodges left and right with lots of electricity and particle effects. 

Ash could dash forward almost like slash-dash but he's a shadowy smoky figure or something. 

The old roll is just been around forever and it'd be refreshing to change it up.

[Drachnyn]

vor 21 Stunden schrieb [DE]Bear:

Condition Overload - Now stacks at a maximum of 3 Status Effects, however damage is being increased from 60% to a higher percent to balance the change. Final % to come. 

Will it still function like it used to (exponential stacking)? otherwise you might aswell delete the mod right now.

[AnastasiaMichenko]

 

20 hours ago, lihimsidhe said:

All in all this rework looks pretty incredible I must say.  As someone I think at least slightly influenced Melee 2.x,There is only one core suggestion I have:

Block Anytime, Anywhere. The Tenno either can execute a single command (single key or multi key press)  to block. Allow most actions to be cancelled into blocks. Blocking always should have been a fallback action for when a Tenno finds themselves in trouble regardless of what they are doing. This is another clear example how dedicated firearm/melee modes hold back Warframe's potential. Also I can't mention blocking in a serious manner without referencing this. 

Imagine a combat scenario where a Tenno is highly engaged with the enemy.  Suddenly, a huge attack comes barrelling towards them and they do not have time to dodge.  Only block.  What sounds more fun and natural to you:

A) At the last moment the Tenno stops firing his/her gun and brings up their arms in the nick of time to block the attack.  Perhaps timing the block could lead to parries.

B) The Tenno has to stop firing their weapon, put it away, wait for their melee weapon to get pulled out, and then block.  If they have the time to do this you know what they could have also done?  Just about anything else in the game including moving out of the way thereby defeating the point of blocking.

Again the rework looks f**king AMAZING.  It does truly.  However, until DE discards the notion of dedicated firearms/melee modes completely and amps up the challenge of the game in general... Warframe will always be playing 2nd fiddle to its own 1st rate potential.

Lastly, DE could literally create the most eloquent, complex, and incredible combat system known to man. However, if the enemies remain stuck as ants we crush with hammers, all this work to make combat more engaging becomes a moot point.  We are still hammers crushing ants and combos and in depth combat is a distant option to nuking dumb, enfeebled enemies that literally run to their slaughter

Love you guys, the game you make, and the work you do.  🙂

"Perhaps timing the block could lead to parries."

 

Eidolon: "Parry this you casual."

*swings tree arm*

Me, a casual: *PARRIES*

>:00

 

Does sound great though, just tricky business to go about doing when it comes to blasts or lasers, which there is an unfortunate amount of.

Hopefully all this makes dueling more fun and strategic overall, rather than wait for timer to hit 00:00 so you can either pop them or get sliced in half a second.