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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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Dear DE,

Could we have some awesome sidesteps and shadow-dodging instead of the old roll? Maybe have certain frames have different looking dodges and side-steps and dash-dodging. 

Make them unique to each character, like if Ember does a dodge/roll, double-jump  or something, she's on fire or something. Volt can be all lightning and electricity when he dodges left and right with lots of electricity and particle effects. 

Ash could dash forward almost like slash-dash but he's a shadowy smoky figure or something. 

The old roll is just been around forever and it'd be refreshing to change it up.

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vor 21 Stunden schrieb [DE]Bear:

Condition Overload - Now stacks at a maximum of 3 Status Effects, however damage is being increased from 60% to a higher percent to balance the change. Final % to come. 

Will it still function like it used to (exponential stacking)? otherwise you might aswell delete the mod right now.

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20 hours ago, lihimsidhe said:

All in all this rework looks pretty incredible I must say.  As someone I think at least slightly influenced Melee 2.x,There is only one core suggestion I have:

Block Anytime, Anywhere. The Tenno either can execute a single command (single key or multi key press)  to block. Allow most actions to be cancelled into blocks. Blocking always should have been a fallback action for when a Tenno finds themselves in trouble regardless of what they are doing. This is another clear example how dedicated firearm/melee modes hold back Warframe's potential. Also I can't mention blocking in a serious manner without referencing this. 


Imagine a combat scenario where a Tenno is highly engaged with the enemy.  Suddenly, a huge attack comes barrelling towards them and they do not have time to dodge.  Only block.  What sounds more fun and natural to you:

A) At the last moment the Tenno stops firing his/her gun and brings up their arms in the nick of time to block the attack.  Perhaps timing the block could lead to parries.

B) The Tenno has to stop firing their weapon, put it away, wait for their melee weapon to get pulled out, and then block.  If they have the time to do this you know what they could have also done?  Just about anything else in the game including moving out of the way thereby defeating the point of blocking.

Again the rework looks f**king AMAZING.  It does truly.  However, until DE discards the notion of dedicated firearms/melee modes completely and amps up the challenge of the game in general... Warframe will always be playing 2nd fiddle to its own 1st rate potential.

Lastly, DE could literally create the most eloquent, complex, and incredible combat system known to man. However, if the enemies remain stuck as ants we crush with hammers, all this work to make combat more engaging becomes a moot point.  We are still hammers crushing ants and combos and in depth combat is a distant option to nuking dumb, enfeebled enemies that literally run to their slaughter

Love you guys, the game you make, and the work you do.  🙂

"Perhaps timing the block could lead to parries."

 

Eidolon: "Parry this you casual."

*swings tree arm*

Me, a casual: *PARRIES*

>:00

 

Does sound great though, just tricky business to go about doing when it comes to blasts or lasers, which there is an unfortunate amount of.

Hopefully all this makes dueling more fun and strategic overall, rather than wait for timer to hit 00:00 so you can either pop them or get sliced in half a second.

Edited by CrimsonRain14

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Just don’t touch Condition Overload. If need be, lower the melee damage multiplier. Just don’t force cap the mod to only 3 Status Effects. The proposed change is a hard nerf for planned diversified builds across your arsenal and will only promote burst damage gameplay for only melee.

Proc’ing 3 Status Effects is already easy enough in normal play. That’s basically a given for any melee mod configuration. Restricting Condition Overload to just 3 Status Effects will be a hard nerf for overall arsenal synergy between Warframe, primary, secondary, and companion status procs.

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18 minutes ago, (NSW)zook-pl said:

That’s true. In normal gameplay counter don’t exceed 3-3,5x taking to 4x take long time, 4,5x is for nolifes, how much time one must spend in game to hit 4,5x or 5x?

I start to thinking most people complaining here is just scared of change.

Just because a slower weapon like the gram p average about 3-3.5x combo doesn't mean weaker faster weapons like rapiers (my weapon of choice) average a 3.5x combo. A weapon like the rapier have to compensate the damage speed with more hits and increasing the the combo counter to match the power of the Juggernaut slower weapons.

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12 minutes ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

I average about 1000+ kills with melee before the 30min mark if unless im 2shotting everything, which im not, i'll have atleast a 4x combo before i hit 30min.

I’m rather one-slash-kill everything in range of my blade up to about 25 mins. I hit 4x (Under 25 mins) onece when I intentionally drop dps of my weapon. And playing over 30 mins is hmm... bad when you try co contain play sessions in 1h.

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5 minutes ago, CrimsonRain14 said:

 

"Perhaps timing the block could lead to parries."

 

Eidolon: "Parry this you casual."

*swings tree arm*

Me, a casual: *PARRIES*

>:00

 

Does sound great though, just tricky business to go about doing when it comes to blasts or lasers, which there is an unfortunate amount of.

 

20 hours ago, lihimsidhe said:

A) At the last moment the Tenno stops firing his/her gun and brings up their arms in the nick of time to block the attack.  Perhaps timing the block could lead to parries.

 

That's literally Sekiro combat system. And Dark Souls to an extent.

Sekiro whole gameplay is about using the blocks when your opponent attacks land, which open them to a deathblow. It makes boss battle in particular a real sword dance where you have to both be agressive and time your blocks to fill the Stance bar of the enemy and land a death blow.

Dark Souls is about landing a parry when your opponent attacks which open them to a critical attacks that deals huge damage.

 

However warframe isn't suited for this. First because we kill hordes, not a single enemy, and second because hitscan weapons exists.

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Just because a slower weapon like the gram p average about 3-3.5x combo doesn't mean weaker faster weapons like rapiers (my weapon of choice) average a 3.5x combo. A weapon like the rapier have to compensate the damage speed with more hits and increasing the the combo counter to match the power of the Juggernaut slower weapons.

Truth I generally use slower weapons but nikana prime with berserker is not that slow. Daggers are to fast to use witch berserker I can’t mash button that fast.

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I don't like the sound of removing ragdoll effects from slam attacks - that's one of my favorite features of this game. Will anything ragdoll enemies anymore while they are still living? Just certain abilities? I feel like having the enemies levitate or whatever is going on there after the slam attack should be an option not a replacement 

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2 minutes ago, Gnohme said:

I don't like the sound of removing ragdoll effects from slam attacks - that's one of my favorite features of this game. Will anything ragdoll enemies anymore while they are still living? Just certain abilities? I feel like having the enemies levitate or whatever is going on there after the slam attack should be an option not a replacement 

Some weapon will still rag doll.

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6 minutes ago, (NSW)zook-pl said:

Truth I generally use slower weapons but nikana prime with berserker is not that slow. Daggers are to fast to use witch berserker I can’t mash button that fast.

Think about it like this gram p have about 2x the base damage as a rapier with a stance that does 4x the damage the rapier stance does. If the gram p average about 3-3.5 what do you think the rapier have to do to keep up? Lol. If gram p gets 3.5x damage i want atleast 5x on my rapier

Edited by (PS4)Dyin-Kyo

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7 minutes ago, (NSW)zook-pl said:

Some weapon will still rag doll.

O ok - thank u  -

 

not with slams tho?

Edited by Gnohme

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Ok, so basically combo is dead, since now we can use it to kill multiple enemies over a large period of time but its changing to 1 enemy once every few mins, ok i may be making it sound worse that it seems but that is my expectations

Crit n Combo, ok so before we would get both the dmg multiplier from combo and crit/status from acolyte mods, but how will it function now? Will we get enough crit to have a same lvl of damage? How will it work with slide cc?

Status, so CO getting a cap, to be honest if the mod rises to 90-120% i will be happy, more if i knew how the heat is getting reworked, but how will it benefit the fact that crit (and thus hybrid) weapons are getting nerfed?

Ok something that is lacking from this thread is the rework of shattering impact, that mod is extremely situational as most of the time the enemy will be dead before the armor gets removed, how about buffing it? A 15-20 armor strip would be much more helpful, also since daggers are losing their one and only viable endgame build, how about making covert lethality to a buffed shattering impact? Removing 40-50 armor per hit and all armor on finishers/stealth attacks

Heavy attacks, they are going to be utterly useless, you will lose benefits of weeping wounds,blood rush etc for a single attack, please make a way to use them without consuming any combo (for example, tapping the button will do a heavy attack that does not drain combo, but also doesnt generate any,but refreshes the combo depletion timer, if you hold the button for 0.3 secs then it drains combo and gains all the bonuses)

And lastly, completely random, make conclave mods available in pve, but only obtainable through pvp, especially now with the weapon exilus they will prove really handy (since none of the mods adds dmg or dps, and the IPS convertion mods really fit the tactical/utility theme)

 

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25 minutes ago, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

 

That's literally Sekiro combat system. And Dark Souls to an extent.

Sekiro whole gameplay is about using the blocks when your opponent attacks land, which open them to a deathblow. It makes boss battle in particular a real sword dance where you have to both be agressive and time your blocks to fill the Stance bar of the enemy and land a death blow.

Dark Souls is about landing a parry when your opponent attacks which open them to a critical attacks that deals huge damage.

 

However warframe isn't suited for this. First because we kill hordes, not a single enemy, and second because hitscan weapons exists.

Sad but true.

Consider: we used to, and still technically do have this in game already. If you had channeling active, and blocked just before an enemy attacked, you would open them for a finisher. Most people had no idea that move even existed. I only have it in my head because it's very occasionally useful for Skiajati.

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)argirisgarios said:

Ok, so basically combo is dead, since now we can use it to kill multiple enemies over a large period of time but its changing to 1 enemy once every few mins, ok i may be making it sound worse that it seems but that is my expectations

Crit n Combo, ok so before we would get both the dmg multiplier from combo and crit/status from acolyte mods, but how will it function now? Will we get enough crit to have a same lvl of damage? How will it work with slide cc?

Status, so CO getting a cap, to be honest if the mod rises to 90-120% i will be happy, more if i knew how the heat is getting reworked, but how will it benefit the fact that crit (and thus hybrid) weapons are getting nerfed?

Ok something that is lacking from this thread is the rework of shattering impact, that mod is extremely situational as most of the time the enemy will be dead before the armor gets removed, how about buffing it? A 15-20 armor strip would be much more helpful, also since daggers are losing their one and only viable endgame build, how about making covert lethality to a buffed shattering impact? Removing 40-50 armor per hit and all armor on finishers/stealth attacks

Heavy attacks, they are going to be utterly useless, you will lose benefits of weeping wounds,blood rush etc for a single attack, please make a way to use them without consuming any combo (for example, tapping the button will do a heavy attack that does not drain combo, but also doesnt generate any,but refreshes the combo depletion timer, if you hold the button for 0.3 secs then it drains combo and gains all the bonuses)

And lastly, completely random, make conclave mods available in pve, but only obtainable through pvp, especially now with the weapon exilus they will prove really handy (since none of the mods adds dmg or dps, and the IPS convertion mods really fit the tactical/utility theme)

 

If they trying to nerf condition overload just nerf it. I rather see the damage lowered and uncapped than higher with a cap of 3. Because the way it looks gram p with weeping wounds and condition overload blood rush going to be the meta. It's rewarding having less procs than rewarding the weapons with multiple procs that need it.

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22 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

7. Replacing Channeling with Heavy Attacks and the ‘Lifted’ Status

 

Channeling will be saying its final farewells in the Melee Rework: Phase 2 update, and instead is being replaced with a new form of Heavy Attack, as well as a new Lifted status effect. As we said before, Channeling Mods will also be changed to support this new system, as well as providing a larger pool of utility to choose from in your builds.

These are the changes planned:

  • Heavy Attacks (Alt-Fire for Melee) - Heavy attacks can now occur at any time, simply by pressing the Alt-fire button while you have melee equipped or in your hand. This costs all of your Combo Counter (affected by Mods), so make sure you lay down the hurt! If you don’t have any Combo Counter active, you will use a Heavy Attack, but it will not benefit from any damage bonus from the Combo Counter. 
  • Heavy Slam Attacks (Jump + Alt-Fire for Melee) - This new Slam Attack will create a new effect on targets, known as the LIFTED STATUS. When a target is Lifted, it is held suspended in the air, allowing a player to follow up on attacks while the target is held helplessly aloft. Again, if you do not have any Combo Counter active, this will act as a Heavy Slam attack without a damage bonus, and minimal Lifting Status.

 

 

                >>>>>> [Heavy Attacks (Alt-Fire for Melee) ... costs all of your Combo Counter (affected by Mods)] <<<<<<

 

NOOOOOOOO!


... Ok, outburst aside; everything else looks great! This little detail? Not so much.

This means that a single heavy attack will rob you of any stacking bonuses, which hits hard especially as the changes listed to mods like Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds still rely on combo counter tiers. The Naramon tree, Drifting Contact, and the aforementioned BR/WW etc. are now only useful to those who refuse to use the new heavy attack, as the bonuses that players like me work to accrue through combat will just outright disappear as soon as a heavy attack is used.

I see two ways this could go; either the mods in question aren't used, or the heavy attack feature is not used. Admittedly there's some room for player preference here, but having an option that's supposed to display melee combat's strength instead make the weapon you're using weaker seems a bit counter to theme.

Further on this, if heavy attacks can be strung together, or for heavy attacks that strike more than once (currently daggers and some dual/twin melee), will only the first hit get the bonus?

A quick and easy fix for this is to, as you state, turn your combo counter into an economy, and give heavy attacks a 'price', so you can budget your combo meter as a resource, rather than a switch.
If a heavy attack costs 10 combo combo points, you can then mix it up more often and not lose functionality of your combo-stacking mods and/or features if you're careful. Surging Dash remains useful, Blood Rush remains useful, so on and so forth, and the new heavy strike can be incorporated into those builds, rather than being a problem for them. You could even have some of those mods that need redone increase or decrease the cost of heavy attacks.

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In my opinion paying 20p everytime you want a fourth build for your weapon OR to customize your Frame further is A BIG NOGO. I beg DE to change that for obvious reasons. I already paid enough plat for riven slots. There are 42 Frames ingame and buying at least 1 more customisation-slot for each would be around 840 Plat only spend for this trash. Well, actually if you wish to customize your frame you already have to buy more than enough is what i want to tell with that. You already have to pay for Cloropalettes, Armour and Syadanas when you want to make your frame look at least a bit fashionable. But paying 20 for just one capacity on one frame, nah, fam. I would pay for a completly new Mag (40p) instead of buying 3 more customisation-slots (60p) on my other Mag...

(PS: As always: I am sorry for my bad english)

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Ok so, all of the changes i see here look delicious, except for the combo counter being totally consumed on a heavy attack. 

Is there a way to change it so heavy attacks consumes a porcentage of the total hits on the combo instead of the whole thing? I ask for this so we don't have to build our whole combo counter back from scratch and to not feel the need to always use a combo-counter-efficiency mod. Also, if i do a heavy attack, but i miss, do i still get my combo counter drained?

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7 hours ago, HolySeraphin said:

The skana currently deals 35 base damage, the one in the devstream had 120 base damage, that's 3.4x higher, so you're basically starting with a 3.5x combo counter, which is insane.

But I lose the bonus on Atlas' landslide. And that's why it sucks.

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Regarding arsenal changes: will companions still be included in loadouts? It looks like Vehicles and companions will be similarly handled, and vehicles aren't included in loadouts currently.

I'm worried that this will just add *another* step when switching pets too. It's bad enough that we have to put one in stasis, wait, pull the other one out, then go re-equip the new pet.. without adding another step to that.

If we're getting 2 dedicated melee buttons, can we get 2 dedicated keybinds for primary and secondary? I'd prefer to just push a button and know which weapon i'm going to get. Would also like to be able to drop items (power cells and the like) without always switching to my primary

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22 hours ago, Etzu said:

There is also Zenurik Focus passive about channeling to rework, don't forgot it xP

And half of Zaw arcanes

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Let me start by saying i'm cautiously optimistic about this change, cautious because it can go one of 2 ways. Either open up more melee options and viability for all the weapons, or stop me from touching it entirely.

Lets begin with range. Currently high range melee are great becasue they compete with guns by hitting things with relative ease and mobility. To keep melee feeling as good as it does the base range and added range from mods needs to be kept similar. From what i have read if primed reach grants at least 4m of range most melee weapons will need to at least be 3-6m at base (a 2.5m skana is too short to feel good to use). I think 3m for short one handed weapons like daggers 4m for one handed swords 5m for two handed weapons like polearms and 6m for whips is fairly necessary to maintain consistency and the rage players are used to. Whips will reach 10m without a riven (11m currently) with 14-16m with a good riven (currently 20m), more than enough range even with the changes. Daggers, nikanas and all the other unusable melee weapons will be reaching around 8m, perfect for hitting enemies comfortably. Previously the minimal range led to them feeling awful to play with (especially when you have guns) becasue if all you hit is air you aren't dealing damage. I do hope that melee will keep it's reach.

Lets address slide attacks and crit now. It doesn't really matter where the damage comes from whether it's from crit stacking or whatever but i would hope that melee DPS remains similar to how it currently is with most long melee weapons at around 50k with 3x combo. To touch on maiming strike, it was never the reason why slide attacks are so good. Slide attacks not only have the most range and damage already but they also maintain strong forward momentum and consistency with the swing pattern. Who cares if they crit or not when they have everything you want from a melee strike and the speed to cover everything. What worries me though is the change from added crit, almost all melee weapons have low crit and true steel isn't changing that. Maiming strike simply allowed these low crit weapons an option to be built as crit, even if it also stacks with blood rush currently. I hope that if not through critting on the slide attacks we wont stop using, melee weapons can maintain good damage and viability even if new mods need to be added or changed to accomplish this.

Thanks.

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Any chance you could stick the corpse-erasing effect on Focus Energy?  It's the main reason I use channeling aside from the damage boost. Even if the heavy attacks still do it, that's not a toggle anymore and will be limited.

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First, I have no complaints at all about making changes like this.  Often changes to the base mechanics are the only thing that keeps things interesting. BUT, you have to do it in a way that isn't annoying. When you changed to damage 2.0 ages ago, I literally walked away from the game for about 2.5 years.

There is only one way to make this okay and not induce every level 27 player to leave the game:  Give us a two to four week period where our melee weapon polarity slots can be changed at will.

Even a FREE 498327590832745098234758902347509 forma pack so I can fix all my weapons would be woefully inadequate.  I am not willing to grind old content for months to redo all of my melee weapons. I'd rather walk away from the game forever than do that.

 

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Since channeling is being removed, why not add a dedicated 'guard' button? That way we can guard manually without having to fully switch into melee, like how 3.0 v1 was. Daggers also need some heavy reworking before removing covert lethality. Additionally, why not simplify attack combos? I know they're different games, but Dragon's Dogma had a good balance between ranged and melee combat. A combo system from a game like that might be a good fit for Warframe.

Also, what happened to being able to dual wield other single-handed melee weapons with a secondary?

Edited by Horosha

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