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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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It seems people here belive the missinformation that the skana they showed having 3.4x more base damage means "its like you have a permanent 3x combo counter"

This cannot be further from the truth.

Base damage is the numbers you start with then multiplicate by other mods

Combo counter bonus damage is the LAST multiplication in the calculation. So no, it's not a permanent 3x combo, if you test it on warframe builder with an actual build, and reworked Skana having 1x combo (since combo counter will only mess with heavy attacks) you see that the Reworked Skana actually deals less by around 40% (witht he build i tested) than a skana with 3x combo with the same build
 

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23 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Blood Rush - Will now scale differently, using a stacking multiplier based on the Combo Counter, raising (X)% per Combo Counter tier (something much easier to achieve in Phase 2). We will provide the final % pending more testing. 

Condition Overload - Now stacks at a maximum of 3 Status Effects, however damage is being increased from 60% to a higher percent to balance the change. Final % to come. 

Maiming Strike - Changes from an additive buff to a stacking buff, but base functionality increased to a Significant % of the old version to balance the change. Final % to come soon.

I'm pretty concerned about these three mods... Well, only about Blood Rush and Condition Overload, since i don't use Maiming Strike that much, but still.

We don't know how much these mods would be either buffed or nerfed, and how they would affect people's builds.

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I still want slam attacks to ragdoll things tho.  the lifted status is interesting for like air combos but - yea idk. I dont want the slam attack being touched at its base concept - it feels wrong. Because right now it feels so right to me. 

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If the goal is to make me hit every enemy five times to kill it with my melee, this sounds like a really stylish way to achieve that goal

WIth one minor problem. Melee used to be the only form of damage output that could be scaled insanely enough to deal with the raw amount of health and the absolute one-hitscan-bullet-tap problem that high level enemies pose once they get high enough. We already have a problem with a dynamic in the game right now, where vs endgame loadouts enemies either uselessly melt, or they oneshot veteran players. Theres no middle ground. They pose no intriguing interaction, it's just "kill or be killed" (to quote my favorite flower)

With these changes? You can bet i'll be running around with my Ignis Wraith a heck of a lot more. Why bother running into the range of an enemy one finger death punch if i don't get rewarded with sweeping clearance of multiple enemies for doing so? Considering you made it sound like you wanted to bring the rest of melee up to the power level of the typical slide&dice builds this is a surprisingly sweeping sum of nerfs. Each individual one might even make sense, but all at once?

I cant see myself even killing Sortie level enemies in melee combat anymore. If i have to hit them half a dozen times, they WILL get a counterpunch in, and currently that counterpunch means most of my non-tank frames are flat on their back, floored by 600-1500 damage.

I'll certainly film myself in quite a bit of simulacrum mode tomorrow to have a comparison, but this feels like the already dreaded "goodbye combo damage multiplier" nerf ON TOP of wrecking all the big meta damage mods. It's the stacked nature that makes it overbearing and intimidating. The day a Grineer Grunt with his Cleaver can out-melee my Excalibur, is the day i switch to dumb launcher primaries xD

 

TL;DR read the underlined section

Edited by Jukantos
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I have skimmed over the changes, and please just dont touch contion overload, you dont just break spin to win builds with this, but pretty much every endgamescaling melee weapon, thus forching eyeryone who whants to do endurance content into slash builds, thusly going directly against your stated intent of ecuraging more variety

Edited by fastgamer2

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12 minutes ago, An8rchy said:

It seems people here belive the missinformation that the skana they showed having 3.4x more base damage means "its like you have a permanent 3x combo counter"

This cannot be further from the truth.

Base damage is the numbers you start with then multiplicate by other mods

Combo counter bonus damage is the LAST multiplication in the calculation. So no, it's not a permanent 3x combo, if you test it on warframe builder with an actual build, and reworked Skana having 1x combo (since combo counter will only mess with heavy attacks) you see that the Reworked Skana actually deals less by around 40% (witht he build i tested) than a skana with 3x combo with the same build
 

How do you test it on the builder? You can't exactly compensate there.

Also, if the base damage is increased, then every mod has a higher effect due to this. The damage mods like Pressure point will be based on a 3.4x higher base, and the elemental mods will be based on the altered damage. So a heat mod will be based on a 3.4x damage, which means it will essentially become +306%, even more if you use Pressure Point (base damage mod). Then crit mods come into account, so a +90% crit damage will be based on the "final" damage, which was augmented by the increased base damage, which was further increased by the elemental damage. In others words, they stack.

Edited by HolySeraphin
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The return of manual blocking is most welcome. I hated trying to aim glide with a melee weapon out only to find I suddenly drew a gun. In fact I kept drawing over and over while trying to melee, just trying to do the combos. It was so clumsy, so I am glad it is going to be sorted.

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8 hours ago, Haelbrecht said:

I am going to laugh at you. Also, who in their right minds pays 6000 plat for a Scoliac riven? There are plenty of good ones for like 2000 and less.

The other thing is that they even announced they will nerf spin2win ages ago. The telegraphs were everywhere.

You may laugh as much as you want. If my post can make other people laugh, then I'm more than glad to do that.

6000p is not even close to the definition of "ridiculous". There are people who pay 15k, 30k for their desired rivens for Rubico, Opticor, etc. Not only because those stats are perfect but also all magnitudes of stats are close to the max value.

And there are people claiming "WTB [Primed Chamber] 100k"

People may persue perfect, not just "good". Sure they have to be responsible for any loss caused by this rework. Others may think they are irrational buyers, and that's all.

And I have no problem accepting this loss, the point is that the general picture is going to the wrong direction.

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On 2019-10-18 at 7:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

MP2-ProGamerMove.gif

 

 

 

If this works against high valuable targets like demolysts then it will be fun.

But in typical horde situations I am not sure how this slow attacking should be an alternative for fast spin attacks. ( or where in all this melee rework is the alternative for spin attacks?)

Despite the suspected melee damage nerf I hope  warfame is the right game for such slow and single target focused attacks ...

 

 

Edited by sorcer3r

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Having had time to look and think about the proposed changes to melee, I have to say that I'm disappointed. Granted, the stream made a point to say "don't judge before you try it out", but I don't really need to try it out to notice the complete removal of Channeling. Nobody really likes channeling, myself included, and I'm sure that it's complete lack of use has been the reasoning for DE's removal of the system entirely, but let's be honest: DE has hamfistedly removed entire systems from the game in the past to the detriment of the game as whole, and ironically in this case, one such example was the heavy/charge attacks that have come back and are now desperately trying to make relevant again.

I'll have to see what "Rage Mode" is supposed to be, but I don't believe it's going to be what I'm looking for; I'll explain. Channeling represents this super interesting dynamic in Warframe, where frames with higher energy pools (ie. casters) can attempt to make up extra damage compared to melee-oriented frames, like Valkyr, Rhino, Excalibur, or Ash. However, the insane energy costs for what largely amounts to a few +1s is inefficient, ineffective, and boring. As it stands, Warframe is poised to experience a flashback to the "good ol days" where nobody was using a melee weapon unless they were a frame that could bump up the effectiveness of melee to a more satisfying level. By consolidating the melee experience by removing channeling, all that's happening is the effective removal of melee from caster-type frame builds.

I beg DE, reconsider what channeling represents to Warframe. I know you guys hate archetypes, but please, going forward with Rage Mode, think about whether it could represent an alternate swordplay style for caster frames, and what utility that can bring, rather than just making a new toy for already melee-heavy frames to play with. Think about weapons that can be planted for persistent aoe effects, "Rituals" that pulse aoe health or energy if the caster manages a full combo or finisher on an enemy, SOMETHING to justify how the Sancti Magistar is a healstick that isn't more useful in the hands of healers. Make a dagger that performs a finisher that gets stuck in an enemy and keeps them mind-controlled for a short duration, or a mod that counts combo on a specific enemy, only for them to detonate with scaling damage after a second of not being hit by a melee weapon. Make melee interesting for frames that aren't just womping things for The Big Numbers.

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My only massive complaint is I feel like the "Combo Counter" idea as a whole is now incredibly dated and doesn't fit its purpose in the new system at all.  Leaving the generation of stacks up to a "chance" as indicated by some of the mod descriptions feels very counter intuitive to the way the rest of the game plays if it's meant to be viewed as a "resource" that we build and expend like we do with Gauss' Redline or Baruuk's Restraint.  Personally, I would much rather the combo counter be converted into a "meter" like any of these other resource based abilities and the generation amount just be what increases or decreases rather than this idea that you just "might" not get anything at all for doing what you're supposed to.  Other than that nothing strikes me as too bad so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.  #RIPChannelingSpamRaves

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Please rethink autoblocking. It simply does not work with how Warframe is made, and is actively detrimental most of the time.

Blocking exists as a way to negate powerful, telegraphed attacks. The problem is Warframe doesn't really have that: it has 12 different enemies firing hitscan weapons from 5 different directions. It's constant, unavoidable chip damage. Blocking in this case isn't helpful even at 100% block; sure you might make 4 or 5 of the Lancer's hitting you do nothing, but there's still the 7 or 8 others hitting you so you still need to have built enough defense to just ignore that.

At that point however blocking is a negative action since you had to build enough defense to survive anyway. It slows the player down, locks them in slow animations, and doesn't really help the player survive since they already had to build survival to begin with. In almost every case the correct option between "block 4 lancers from hitting me" and "kill the enemies slightly faster" is killing the enemies, because dead enemies can't shoot you. Additionally, parkouring over to kill things already means most shots will be missing (and if you use rolls any that hit will deal 75% less damage, so basically an AoE unconditional block), and then you kill the enemies so there are less shots going out to begin with.

To close this out, I have 2,211 hours on Warframe and have been playing since Second Dream. In this entire time, having done all available content, blocking has only been useful for memes (like Guardian Derision) and for Law of Retribution pad standing (which was both removed, and had blocking made obsolete with the operator update). Please don't force me to wave my weapon around like an insect with a fungus hijacking the brain stem. Just let me go and murder the dudes shooting at me in peace.

Edited by Dusteon
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20 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

How do you test it on the builder? You can't exactly compensate there.

Also, if the base damage is increased, then every mod has a higher effect due to this. The damage mods like Pressure point will be based on a 3.4x higher base, and the elemental mods will be based on the altered damage. So a heat mod will be based on a 3.4x damage, which means it will essentially become +306%, even more if you use Pressure Point (base damage mod). Then crit mods come into account, so a +90% crit damage will be based on the "final" damage, which was augmented by the increased base damage, which was further increased by the elemental damage. In others words, they stack.

Heres the builds
Skana
Reworked Skana

As i said on my post, Reworked Skana needs to be at 1x combo since combo counter bonus are only uesd on Heavy attacks And Skana is at 3x combo

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3 minutes ago, An8rchy said:

Heres the builds
Skana
Reworked Skana

As i said on my post, Reworked Skana needs to be at 1x combo since combo counter bonus are only uesd on Heavy attacks And Skana is at 3x combo

That's wrong 

Edited by (PS4)Dyin-Kyo
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1 minute ago, An8rchy said:

Heres the builds
Skana
Reworked Skana

As i said on my post, Reworked Skana needs to be at 1x combo since combo counter bonus are only uesd on Heavy attacks And Skana is at 3x combo

That's because you are using blood rush build - which scales and will scale with combo counter even after rework. If you want to compare damage multiplier from combo to base increase of damage don't use mods that scale with combo. 

Take it off and you will see that the damage of reworked skana is actually bit higher.

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Feedback!
I don't like the change to Amalgam Organ Shatter, I like to throw my zenistar disc and glaives faster.

 

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1 minute ago, Arvindal said:

That's because you are using blood rush build - which scales and will scale with combo counter even after rework

It wont scale normal attacks, so no, rework will deal less dmg

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4 minutes ago, Arvindal said:

That's because you are using blood rush build - which scales and will scale with combo counter even after rework. If you want to compare damage multiplier from combo to base increase of damage don't use mods that scale with combo. 

Take it off and you will see that the damage of reworked skana is actually bit higher.

That's not the problem im having with the base damage increase tho. If 3.5x combo counter is average. What weapon average we basing this on? Because if a gram p is at a 3.5x combo my rapier better be at 4.5-5x combo

Edited by (PS4)Dyin-Kyo

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Good job DE,GOOD job.Spin will be still be the same But we will nerf Maiming Strike just to be sure you never gona use it again.Classic DE Rework...

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I made some calculations:

Current build: 100 slash damage
+ Primed Pressure Point ( +165%) = 265
+ shocking touch (+90%) = 238,5 + 265 = 503,5
+ Organ Shatter (+90% crit damage on a 2x crit damage) = 503.5 x 3.8 = 1,913.30 slash damage.
+3.5x combo = 6,696.55
if it were 3.4x combo = 6,505.2
 
With the rework: 340 slash damage
Primed Pressure Point = 901
Shocking touch = 810,9+901= 1711.9
Organ shatter = 1711.9 x 3.8
Final damage: 6,505.2
 
So there is no loss with damage up to the 3.5 combo multiplier. So you might say "What if I go 2 hours on survival and need 5x?" Heavy attacks are 4x stronger than the new base damage. So:
Current build: 100 base damage
New build: 340 base
Heavy attack on new build: 1,360 damage.
 
In other words, it is 13,6x stronger than the current normal attack, and from what I got from the devstream this can be further increased by the combo counter, so let's say you get the 1.5x combo (just 5 hits, mind you). Your heavy attack now deals 2,040 damage, or 20x the damage of a normal hit in the current build. I think we're fine.
 
Edited by HolySeraphin
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First thank you DE for looking for improvement. Now, regarding changes in melee 3.0: I don't want to lift my enemies or dance around them i want to KILL them. I do not approve those changes because i rely heavily on melee for progress in game and i prefer them to guns (reminding that melee doesn't require ammo or reloading or sometimes aiming). DE thinks it's more fun to execute some combos and have (badly devised) animations than providing the damage necessary to shred through their (repetitive) content (or maybe it's an excuse for melee nerf?), when the game clearly demands builds made for endurance runs with insane damage burst and scaling. I'll be straight forward; i like to KILL things FASTER so i can FARM FASTER and spend LESS money in their game while saving the remaining time to other things in my life (because surprise, i have a life and Warframe is just a game). I wonder how those "fun" combos feel after hundred of hours of repetitive content?

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5 hours ago, Xydeth said:

thats because this specific charge attack is pretty special.

lel what.

Hidden Flourish isn't a charge attack, it's a combo. Charge attacks are when you pull back and go "oooo imma chargin' up y'all better be ready cuz it's a comin'." and you glow like a Christmas tree

 

Quote

also, ever thought that there is a statistical reason for the removal of channeling ? noone uses it.

Pfft man these exaggerations are funny. I guess myself and the people I've played with who used it are nobody.

Quote

spending energy for a weak pseudo-crit is not a good way to increase ur dps when u have much better alternatives, especially considering u sacrifice at least 2 slots for it to make it at least half way usable and a riven with these stats is a wasted slot, i tried that myself and its a huge disappointment in comparison.

So not spending energy you're not planning on using is wrong, and it's best to not spend your totally-spare, no-negative-consequences-if-used energy because even though you'll do more damage it's not good enough to even bother with? Also you assume—again—that I'm implying you should use slots for channeling. I explicitly said the opposite. Nor did I say you should roll a riven for channel damage, but if it's there with 1-2 other bonuses you like then why not use it? At least assuming you're not an elitist "nuuu it must have these stats and nothing else reeee"

Quote

so even this argument of urs only applies when u attack an enemy for the first time in a mission, but if u ignore the ramp up of combo builds right now then ur point is pretty much invalid.

And your argument applies when you're mashing away for a while. Again, this sounds like you are planning on taking a long time with your melee. "My way makes more sense if you're there for a long time" If you're there for a long time, just melee'ing, then you're doing something wrong.

 

p.s. I'm assuming you're an adult so please talk like one. Using "u" and "ur" and not even bothering to capitalize "i" makes me feel like I'm talking to a 12 year old texting on their first phone. It'd go a long way towards making people actually take you seriously. And if you're not an adult, then there's never too early a time to start.

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15 minutes ago, An8rchy said:

It wont scale normal attacks, so no, rework will deal less dmg

No. You are wrong. Your old skana build has higher damage because of the blood rush. Blood rush scales by combo counter, which means that while old skana is making use of blood rush because you set it's combo counter on 3X, the reworked skana is not making any use of it because you set it's combo counter on 1X. Essentially, old skana is double dipping in combo counter thanks to your build. 

TL: DR : Don't use Blood rush.  

To prove my point, here is comparison of two build that do not include blood rush.

Old skana

6hfwvbt.png

Reworked skana 

zEVQngO.png

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

That's not the problem im having whit the base damage increase tho. If 3.5x combo counter is average. What weapon average we basing this on? Because if a gram p is at a 3.5x combo my rapier better be at 4.5-5x combo

 

Why? The damage increase is supposed to merely offset loss of damage from combo counter scaling. Your rapier is not getting more damage  multiplication from combo counter than Gram does. 

It's not supposed to make weapons equal. 

Edited by Arvindal
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