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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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I would really like to see the melee stat window segmented, just small dividers grouping related stats together. It would make it way easier to find the stats you're looking for and would make it way less daunting and messy. Wouldn't mind seeing this in the other weapon stats as well. ūüôā

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I have few things i would like to see with this changes.

1) Don't delete auto-blocking, make it toggle in option. Since autobloking has become a thing, i found myself actually using it. If it will become separate button, i will not use it.

2) I would like to keep non-male only control set, again - toggle would be much appreciated.

3) Heavy attacks sounds useless to me as they are shown in dev stream. You know why 95% of players never used old channeling system? It's another button that you have to remember to use. (Well one of things actually.) Would be much appreciated if there would be an option to use them automatically when reaching certain combo-multiplayer.

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3 minutes ago, Arvindal said:

the reworked skana is not making any use of it because you set it's combo counter on 1X

You are gimping my build and using a weaker one to say The rework deals more damage which is shady. Saying "The mod does nothing on the reworked version" is a lie cuz it will still give cc to Heavy attacks
 

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53 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

How do you test it on the builder? You can't exactly compensate there.

Also, if the base damage is increased, then every mod has a higher effect due to this. The damage mods like Pressure point will be based on a 3.4x higher base, and the elemental mods will be based on the altered damage. So a heat mod will be based on a 3.4x damage, which means it will essentially become +306%, even more if you use Pressure Point (base damage mod). Then crit mods come into account, so a +90% crit damage will be based on the "final" damage, which was augmented by the increased base damage, which was further increased by the elemental damage. In others words, they stack.

Indeed. Base damage being multiplied by 3 is the same as final damage being multiplied by 3, assuming you don't have any mods that are adding flat damage (like covert lethality) involved. Turns out 1 x 3 is the same as 3 x 1.

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4 minutes ago, Arvindal said:

No. You are wrong. Your old skana build has higher damage because of the blood rush. Blood rush scales by combo counter, which means that while old skana is making use of blood rush because you set it's combo counter on 3X, the reworked skana is not making any use of it because you set it's combo counter on 1X. Essentially, old skana is double dipping in combo counter thanks to your build. 

TL: DR : Don't use Blood rush.  

To prove my point, here is comparison of two build that do not include blood rush.

Old skana

6hfwvbt.png

Reworked skana 

zEVQngO.png

 

Why? The damage increase is supposed to merely offset loss of damage from combo counter scaling. Your rapier is not getting more damage  multiplication from combo counter than Gram does. 

It's not supposed to make weapons equal. 

You must not understand what balancing is. If the average combo counter is 3.5x for what weapon? Time that gram p hits 3 other weapons will be further ahead. Certain Weapon utilize the combo counters better than others. Like saying you going to give a 3.5x increase when clear it have a increased combo counter. Just because something like the gram p average a 3-3.5x combo doesn't mean a weapon like a rapier average a 3-3.5x combo time gram p hits 2,5x combo as many hits it's gonna to take for a rapier it'll be already around 3.5x due to it having a lower base damage and weaker stance

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I really like these changes but i was hopping to have custom dual melee weapon.

What i mean is being able to chose a melee for the first hand and an other blade for the other hand.

The blade can be:A normal sword or shiled or a small version of orthos (idk what the name of this type of weapons) or a dagger.

I will love to be every blade modded (this mean they are not fused).

Depending on the mods of each  blade and his type  it will control the melee speed.

I wanna see this system because i love custom things and it kind remind me of sword art online

 

Edited by Kiba70

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hi, im one of the dmc fans, and i see what you did there with the incoming rage option. I think it will work greatly with the lift status that also looks like from dmc but im not mad, take everything great from any source you can and make something even better, you have shown that you can. and we, the comunity is behind you. cant wait for the upcoming updates

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3 minutes ago, Kiba70 said:

 

I really like these changes but i was hopping to have custom dual melee weapon.

What i mean is being able to chose a melee for the first hand and an other blade for the other hand.

The blade can be:A normal sword or shiled or a small version of orthos (idk what the name of this type of weapons) or a dagger.

I will love to be every blade modded (this mean they are not fused).

Depending on the mods of each  blade and his type  it will control the melee speed.

I wanna see this system because i love custom things and it kind remind me of sword art online

 

since orthos is a staff,smaller version would be called a stick.

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Cool. I'm late as hell for the feedback, but whatever.

I'm one of those endurance runners, do'er of late game content, math'er of builds, blah blah nobody cares.

 

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1. Equipping Melee and Manual Blocking!

 I was one of those that actually liked the new system as it gave ease of access to stance combos while shooting. That being said I don't mind the old system returning since that gave a lot more options to actually melee with. Overall, this a good change for people that liked both.

The blocking angle changes should help, too. It also gives a new vector for the use of block mods. That being said, I forsee many ability changes in the future due to this.

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2. Dodge Cancel and Tactical Dodging

This is another good change since it helps with positioning, and the normal dodge isn't being screwed with. Totally not just filling space with things that are good to sandwich in between things that are complaints, nope.

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3. Stances, Combos, and You!

4. Smother Combo Transitions

5. Combo Counter Rework

The ground combos are neat, at least. The air/juggle combos, on the other hand, are going to do a lot more harm than good, I feel. While in solo play they should be fine, someone juggling an enemy out of reach of another player, or out of an ability they're cc'd in, or into an area they shouldn't be before losing them forever, is not going to be fun. I honestly think this should be restricted to the last hit in a combo, not as an option to do at any time.

The combo counter change is also...I'm not sure how I feel about it. More damage is great, but if it incurs any added effects that makes the enemy harder to hit instead of applying more status/more crits/more hits then I feel like it'll just be a waste. An expendable resource for something special the melee weapon can use, though, is a ice system on it's own. But more 'big' damage means nothing if we can't land hits.

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6. Changes to Slam Attacks

Almost the same functionality, but it doesn't open up enemies to finishers as easy. Not quite sure how I feel about this, but it's not the worst change in the world. Is tepid indifference okay?

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7. Replacing Channeling with Heavy Attacks and the Lifted Status

See above sections. I like the idea of a resource to manage, but if the slam attack is just 'more damage' I'm not sure it'll be a good change.The lifted status sounds like it'll have some control to it, but my worry from knocking enemies into places people don't want them to be remains. I'm hoping this is handled well, is all.

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8. Weapon Stats and Mastery Limits.

Fine with mastery changes, as this has happened before. Base damage increases are nice if they'll be affecting weapons equally, though some weapons need a bit more love than others since they otherwise don't have a use. I also wonder if some weapons will get further tweaks due to stances changing and many losing damage buffs that certain stances gave. Base Range increase seems nice on paper, so no complaints there, either.

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9. Mod Re-Balancing.

Off the bat I will say I don't mind nerfs, and I appreciate the transparency. What I'm against is removing functionality or a playstyle entirely in a slapdosh way, and some of Warframe's (and other games') worst changes have came from doing this. I'm not talking about the preservation of old 'top stratz' like Maiming Strike was perceived to be (I personally saw that it was 'okay', but there are more powerful strats for killing late game things, and slide-attacking can be boring and surprisingly ineffective), I'm talking about how you can turn almost any melee weapon into something useful with one or two forma and an understanding of how it can shave armor and function (Shattering Impact on a Dual Ether sword with 2 Forma can scale into late game for whatever dumb reason, for example).

 

More than anything in this patch, that's my biggest concern, and I would not like to see another "We're changing Archwing to scale without frame stats so everyone can get into it...wait, you mean now everyone's having the same problem because enemies do the same damage, but archwings don't have defensive stats anymore?" situation, but with a core system of the game. That would be a S#&$show.

For Specific mods:

  • Condition Overload: Reminds me of Berserker. To that end, will this be a base damage buff that is additive, a base damage buff that is multiplicative, an overall damage buff? I understand that this mod is a good weapon on most weapons for whatever reason, but it being a boon to status weapons shouldn't be forgotten.
  • Covert Lethality: I outright hate this. Not for the Insta-killing capability, but with combo and multipliers being changed, the extra base damage to daggers may do more harm than good. I beseech whomever's reading this to consider having the base damage remain in some capacity, otherwise single daggers aren't really good for anything due to their small reach, small block radius, lack of damage, and lack of utility. We don't need a 2nd class of singular swords in the game.
  • Primed/Reach: Good, but I hope future weapons aren't made with having this mod in mind. I think most players are kinda done with short range weapons with weird hitboxes.
  • Weeping Wounds: Due to how status works, this is actually several times worse with the changes that make it like Blood Rush. Unless it adds a flat status chance, most weapons either already hit a sweet spot for status or will never reach it, and a mod slot that adds nothing but more status won't help in the long run.
  • Everything Else: S'fine I guess.
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10. Exalted Weapons

Already did. It's a fun system, but that doesn't alleviate my fears at all. If anything, it does explain why I've been switching gears to not knock enemies away while trying to kick their ass. With a weapon that has a suitable amount of range. But I'm not everyone and maybe I'm doing it wrong. Still, a world of Wukongs sounds like a nightmare.

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11. Arsenal Screen change!

Overall better, but it's still missing important information, and some other info is still tells too little. We've gone over half a decade of this old screen showing "Attack Speed" when that doesn't actually mean how fast a weapon hits per second, but how fast the stance plays while you're in melee. Can we have a proper fix for THAT, so us build makers don't have to over this every time someone asks how a melee weapon functions, and we not balk at a 'slow attack speed' for a weapon that has a fast stance?

Yes, this has happened a suitably large amount of times to me for me to ask it here, why do you ask?

Overall, I think the arsenal would benefit from being more literal, in most cases. That more than anything would help people understand what does what.

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12. Selective Aim Assist

The Toggle will be nice. It's too early to give an opinion on this system without trying it, you know?

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13. Zipper Man when Equipping Melee

I'm maximium okay with this. Thank you for being mindful about winky functionality. You guys do great with QoL fixes in a hurry, which is why, you know, I went and typed all this crap out.

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14. Channeling, the future, bitey dusto

This has me wondering what's in store for Valkyr. When it comes to melee frames, she's one of the most ubiquitous. I feel like she should be treated right, if nothing else.

edit: it's done jim

 

edit 2: Thanks for taking the time to read this, and assuaging my fears accordingly. You people are legit great.

Edited by Typhron
Amazing what a littlenotbeingatwork can do.
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20 minutes ago, An8rchy said:

You are gimping my build and using a weaker one to say The rework deals more damage which is shady. Saying "The mod does nothing on the reworked version" is a lie cuz it will still give cc to Heavy attacks
 

What? Blood rush will work exactly same, except the value will be changed because combo counter will be easier to get. It won't affect only heavy attacks. Here is the exact quote from dev workshop. 

  • Blood Rush¬†- Will now scale differently, using a stacking multiplier based on the Combo Counter, raising (X)% per Combo Counter tier (something much easier to achieve in Phase 2). We will provide the final % pending more testing.¬†

And it still doesn't matter in this case, because blood rush purely depends on combo counter to do something. In your reworked skana build your combo counter is set to 1, which means the blood rush is not taking effect. You are either lying to make people more angry about the change or have no idea how blood rush works. Again, if you want to compare damage from combo counter to base damage increase don't use mods that depend on combo counter because they will be inactive in your second build until you increase the combo counter, thus making entire experiment pointless. 

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

You must not understand what balancing is. If the average combo counter is 3.5x for what weapon? Time that gram p hits 3 other weapons will be further ahead. Certain Weapon utilize the combo counters better than others. Like saying you going to give a 3.5x increase when clear it have a increased combo counter. Just because something like the gram p average a 3-3.5x combo doesn't mean a weapon like a rapier average a 3-3.5x combo time gram p hits 2,5x combo as many hits it's gonna to take for a rapier it'll be already around 3.5x due to it having a lower base damage and weaker stance

All weapons average around same combo counter. Why? Combo counter cost increases exponentially. You need 135 hits to get to 3X but 405 to get to 3,5X and  1215 to get to 4X . While the rapier is faster than Gram, it's not four times faster. Especially if you consider that Gram has wide attacks that will hit multiple targets, while rapiers will hit only single on...etc.

Admittedly, when thinking about this, this change might favour slower weapons slightly. 

Edited by Arvindal
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Just now, Arvindal said:

What? Blood rush will work exactly same, except the value will be changed because combo counter will be easier to get. It won't affect only heavy attacks. Here is the exact quote from dev workshop. 

  • Blood Rush¬†- Will now scale differently, using a stacking multiplier based on the Combo Counter, raising (X)% per Combo Counter tier (something much easier to achieve in Phase 2). We will provide the final % pending more testing.¬†

And it still doesn't matter in this case, because blood rush purely depends on combo counter to do something. In your reworked skana build your combo counter is set to 1, which means the blood rush is not taking effect. You are either lying to make people more angry about the change or have no idea how blood rush works. Again, if you want to compare damage from combo counter to base damage increase don't use mods that depend on combo counter because they will be inactive in your second build until you increase the combo counter, thus making entire experiment pointless. 

All weapons average around same combo counter. Why? Combo counter cost increases exponentially. You need 135 hits to get to 3X but 405 to get to 3,5X and  1215 to get to 4X . While the rapier is faster than Gram, it's not four times faster. Especially if you consider that Gram has wide attacks that will hit multiple targets, while rapiers will hit only single on...etc.

Admittedly, when thinking about this, this change might favour slower weapons slightly. 

Except that faster weapons will increase the combo meter at a faster rate, and as I said before the base heavy attack deals 4x damage, and will be affected by combo counter. Also, attack speed mods will further help fast weapons compared to heavy blades

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hidden flourish might not be the charge attack technically, but practically its the charge attack since the actual one can only be performed after at least 2 basic attacks. on nearly every other stance keeping the melee button pressed executes a basic attack and follows with the charge, which is exactly how u use hidden flourish so per practice its more the "charge" attack than the actual one. doesnt change anything about my argument about hidden flourish/vulpine mask as a stance and its forced proccs so....ur point being ?

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Gravemind93:

"oooo imma chargin' up y'all better be ready cuz it's a comin'." and you glow like a Christmas tree

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Gravemind93:

makes me feel like I'm talking to a 12 year old texting on their first phone.

i dont even have to comment on that. ur own posts show that ur own complaint applies to u urself the most. been a while since ive read such rude posts, especially considering u have 0 reason to borderline insult. cant be a lack of arguments, right ?

vor 17 Minuten schrieb Gravemind93:

Pfft man these exaggerations are funny. I guess myself and the people I've played with who used it are nobody.

u know what "statistically" means, right ? thats got hardly anything to do with exaggerating, its a simple evaluation of numbers and if the usage of channeling is so small that they decided to ditch it then the few individuals who used it just werent enough to deem it a system worthy of staying ingame.

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Huh. After reading through this and giving it some thought, here's what I came up with. But please correct me if I misunderstood.

The aim and/or result of this re-balancing of every single melee weapon in the game is to go from:

Current: really bad weapons, bad weapons, mediocre weapons, good weapons, really good weapons (all with "optimal setups")

to

Upcoming: a wide range of mediocre weapons with a variety in how they handle and "feel" and, of course, new optimal setups for each

And I get that "mediocre" tends to be used as a negative term, but what I refer to is a levelled playing field: every weapon more close to a common average than they have been.

So would that mean a... Riven disposition reset across the board too for melee weapons? Or will the re-balancing take current Riven disposition into account? Because the latter would mean we still get to have bad, mediocre and good melee weapons in their riven-ess (i.e. default) state.

So, while typing this up, I realized that the real question here is how these planned changes interact with Riven disposition. If disposition is not taken into account, balance across the board would result in all the (formerly) really "bad" melee weapons (that received compensation by high disposition) to suddenly be the most amazing things. XD Which seems rather amusing.

Someone smarter than me, please tell me if I got any of this right. ^^ Thanks!

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1 minute ago, Arvindal said:

What? Blood rush will work exactly same, except the value will be changed because combo counter will be easier to get. It won't affect only heavy attacks. Here is the exact quote from dev workshop. 

  • Blood Rush¬†- Will now scale differently, using a stacking multiplier based on the Combo Counter, raising (X)% per Combo Counter tier (something much easier to achieve in Phase 2). We will provide the final % pending more testing.¬†

And it still doesn't matter in this case, because blood rush purely depends on combo counter to do something. In your reworked skana build your combo counter is set to 1, which means the blood rush is not taking effect. You are either lying to make people more angry about the change or have no idea how blood rush works. Again, if you want to compare damage from combo counter to base damage increase don't use mods that depend on combo counter because they will be inactive in your second build until you increase the combo counter, thus making entire experiment pointless. 

All weapons average around same combo counter. Why? Combo counter cost increases exponentially. You need 135 hits to get to 3X but 405 to get to 3,5X and  1215 to get to 4X . While the rapier is faster than Gram, it's not four times faster. Especially if you consider that Gram has wide attacks that will hit multiple targets, while rapiers will hit only single on...etc.

Admittedly, when thinking about this, this change might favour slower weapons slightly. 

Even without wide attacks gram p does 4x the damage by stance 2x the damage by base damage compared to a rapier... It's gonna take the rapier more hits to kill thus increasing the the use of combo counter. Lets say we kill 1000 enemies each. If the gram kill everything in 1 hit n my rapier takes 4 it'll be 1000 hits vs the rapiers 4000

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On 2019-10-18 at 7:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

12. Selective Aim Assist
Aim assist can be a help or a hindrance depending on what type of attack you wish to perform. While the current system either applies to all or none (on or off), the new system will have more intelligence on aim assist on a per-attack basis. As a general rule under the new system, Aim Assist will be disabled for almost all attacks in the Forward and Tactical Forward Combos, and enabled for most of the Neutral and Tactical Neutral Combo attacks. Of course if you don’t wish to use aim assist at all, you can disable it from the settings menu as normal.

sounds good in general, though i would prefer something like a "toggleable" way to "focus" on an enemy instead of such assisted aim... then again, since we usually make short work of most enemies in melee fights anyway, it might not really matters... but, if we ever get such adverdaries that we can't just steamroll with pure fire(melee)power, it would be nice to have it.

in short terms, something like many other games that feature extensive melee combat uses e.g. <fill in your favorite example her>.

On 2019-10-18 at 7:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

13. Sticky Fingers when Equipping Melee!
Another common issue in user feedback was the unequipping of Gear Items (like the Codex Scanner), or dropping the ‚Äėfootball‚Äô (usually a pickup for Mobile Defense or Sabotage Missions) when equipping melee or using a melee attack. This has now been changed so that you will no longer drop items or unequip Gear Items when either equipping melee or using a Melee Attack!¬†

great! though i sure hope you thought of 'those' occasional problems where the 'carrier' of e.g. the datamass can't use it for whatever reason (likely due to a bad/unstable connection to the host) and such cases of the carrier being disconnected (of simply leave on their own) - we had those in the past, remember? even though you fixed those problems more or less, you hopefully tested them (and yes, you should also test with those 'poor connection' to the host cases, and not just in your intranet at work...)

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Really hyped for this update! Ember rework and now melee 3.0 phase 2? OH BOY!

Any information though if the scythes will be able to use heavy weapon stances? ūüôā

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1 minute ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Even without wide attacks gram p does 4x the damage by stance 2x the damage by base damage compared to a rapier... It's gonna take the rapier more hits to kill thus increasing the the use of combo counter. Lets say we kill 1000 enemies each. If the gram kill everything in 1 hit n my rapier takes 4 it'll be 1000 hits vs the rapiers 4000

You also need to compare attack speed, and I'm not just talking about the numbers, because 1.0 attack speed on a rapier is way faster than Galatine's 1.0. Also, the vulpine stance on rapiers attacks about 3 times by the time the cleaving whirlwind hits for the first time. And Vulpine's stance has a lot of fast trusts

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We get manual blocking at the expense of nerfing everything else?  No thanks.  

CO is a huge part of certain builds.  It helps make weaker weapons viable.

 Also,  does anyone see anything about Dual Wielding?  A pistol in one hand and a melee in the other?

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1 minute ago, HolySeraphin said:

You also need to compare attack speed, and I'm not just talking about the numbers, because 1.0 attack speed on a rapier is way faster than Galatine's 1.0. Also, the vulpine stance on rapiers attacks about 3 times by the time the cleaving whirlwind hits for the first time. And Vulpine's stance has a lot of fast trusts

Exactly. So time the gram p hits a 3.5x combo counter rapier will be on like 4.5x-5x

Edited by (PS4)Dyin-Kyo

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Even without wide attacks gram p does 4x the damage by stance 2x the damage by base damage compared to a rapier... It's gonna take the rapier more hits to kill thus increasing the the use of combo counter. Lets say we kill 1000 enemies each. If the gram kill everything in 1 hit n my rapier takes 4 it'll be 1000 hits vs the rapiers 4000

This extremely oversimplifies stuff. First and foremost, your damage will also massively increase with the combo counter which means you will need less hits to kill the enemy. Even ignoring that, Gram has much wider attacks which will lead to it hitting more enemies with each swing and thus getting combo counter faster.  

Your assumption is more or less correct in laboratory conditions when you are engaging limited amount of enemies one by one and their hp is directly proportional to your increase in damage.  

It's not so much correct int reality of mission.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Exactly. So time the gram p hits a 3.5x combo counter rapier will be on like 4.5x-5x

No, because to reach 3.5x you need 405 hits, to reach 4.5x you need 3,645 hits, which is 9 times higher and 5.0x is 10,935 hits, or 27 times the number of hits to reach 3.5x. You could argue for 4.0x, which takes 1,215 hits, roughly 3 times. 

Edited by HolySeraphin
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1 minute ago, Arvindal said:

This extremely oversimplifies stuff. First and foremost, your damage will also massively increase with the combo counter which means you will need less hits to kill the enemy. Even ignoring that, Gram has much wider attacks which will lead to it hitting more enemies with each swing and thus getting combo counter faster.  

Your assumption is more or less correct in laboratory conditions when you are engaging limited amount of enemies one by one and their hp is directly proportional to your increase in damage.  

It's not so much correct int reality of mission.

 

 

Ok. Lets compare a polearm vs the gram p. That polearm still utilize the combo counter better than the gram p have about half the  damage as well with a stance that's 4x lower. It doesnt change the facts.

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Please don't forget to buff Warframe abilities that use the combo counter (Like Atlas' Landslide). Since losing the damage boost that the Combo Counter would give us, would mean that these abilities will deal significantly less damage.

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