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Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE


SilverBones

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4 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

No, because to reach 3.5x you need 405 hits, to reach 4.5x you need 3,645 hits, which is 9 times higher and 5.0x is 10,935 hits, or 27 times the number of hits to reach 3.5x. You could argue for 4.0x, which takes 1,215 hits, roughly 3 times. 

The damage difference actually way higher than that tbh... Im just saying rapier damage is like 8 to the gram p 1. Lol all the damage on vulpine mask like .5x-1x compared to the broken bulls constant 4x

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8 minutes ago, (XB1)Neo Overdrive said:

What about Inner Might node on Zenurik tree (Melee Channeling Efficiency by 60%)? If channeling is going bye bye what will this node become?

I assume it will have something to do with combo counter, maybe you get more "hits" per swing, or maybe that it uses only a portion of the melee combo counter, which would actually be quite neat.

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I dont intend to come off Negative in this response so bare with me ppl

This appears to cater to the flashy low level killing 20 minute community, if we are accepting that End game is Sorties and we dont need to push further (there is no longer reward incentives beyond an hour) Then this looks fun and I accept it for what it is. 

Unless the condition overload increased percentage is around 150% the 3 cap will be a massive nerf to the potential and reward for applying the prior maximum status effects. 

Speaking on the Condition Overload topic, with the right builds and introduction of quick melee we have a great way to reward players for stacking status and then attacking with melee.  It is an enjoyable playstyle for me personally, it requires diverse builds and involves synergies from primary secondary and melee weapons. 

This new system eliminates the reason to utilize all three and simply focus on just two. 

While that sounds more convenient, it appears to me that this change is penalizing a player who puts in more effort to attain higher damage.  I really hope that the percentage increase to condition overload makes up for the 3 cap.

 

The conversation regarding Rage mode.

DOES BARRUK'S 4TH ABILITY GET TO RAGE MODE???

I have had much fun building Barruk to be a viable warframe in the current state of the game, I'm curious will his 4th as well as Excal's 4th Generate combo multiplier with distance strikes accompanying melee 3.0?  It is essentially nerfing their abilities. Currently it is a chore to gain combo multiplier with Barruk as he hurtles enemies across the map which is suprising satisfying.  That being said I have built him in a way where his exalted desert wind can keep up with other warframe's exalted abilities by capitalizing on Condition overload and going as far as to Umbral Forma his desert wind.  I'm concerned that melee 3.0 will reduce his potential

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1 minute ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

The damage difference actually way higher than that tbh... Im just saying rapier damage is like 8 to the gram p 1. Lol all the damage on vulpine mask like .5x-1x compared to the broken bulls constant 4x

And that's a problem with broken bull. not with heavy blades and rapiers. I think that the numbers on that stance are way too high, they should be 2x due to the double spin.

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1 minute ago, HolySeraphin said:

I assume it will have something to do with combo counter, maybe you get more "hits" per swing, or maybe that it uses only a portion of the melee combo counter, which will actually be quite neat.

Expected to see it mentioned here, is Inner Might the only node that mentions channeling? Haven't checked

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1 minute ago, HolySeraphin said:

And that's a problem with broken bull. not with heavy blades and rapiers. I think that the numbers on that stance are way too high, they should be 2x due to the double spin.

So the broken bull combo already do 4x my damage while heavy weapons have a rapier by like 2x damage. So while my stance dipping in between .5x-1x it really going hit for hit a heavy blades 1000 hits = 8000~16000 hits but me say 4000 was just giving the idea of wtf i was talking about

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

So the broken bull combo already do 4x my damage while heavy weapons have a rapier by like 2x damage. So while my stance dipping in between .5x-1x it really going hit for hit a heavy blades 1000 hits = 8000~16000 hits but me say 4000 was just giving the idea of wtf i was talking about

And of course a giant blade will deal more damage than a rapier, not all weapons have to deal the same damage, especially if it is per hit, otherwise everyone would use fist weapons with the Gaia's Tragedy stance. And as I said, the broken bull combo's numbers are busted, and should be 2x.

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The biggest feature that needs to be changed in melee is forced finishers. Turn them off. I hate flowing through a pack of enemies I can kill in 2 seconds, only to get caught on one or two for 2 second apiece because someone exposed them to finishers. I'd just toggle off finishers in the UI if I could, they have always broken the flow of my melee massacres!

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On 2019-10-19 at 9:04 PM, LegendaryNeurotoxin said:

The biggest feature that needs to be changed in melee is forced finishers. Turn them off. I hate flowing through a pack of enemies I can kill in 2 seconds, only to get caught on one or two for 2 second apiece because someone exposed them to finishers. I'd just toggle off finishers in the UI if I could, they have always broken the flow of my melee massacres!

How is DE going to regulate when you perform a finisher? Especially now that Heavy Attacks are a thing? 

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Just now, HolySeraphin said:

You don't need to format your text like this to get attention, it looks like you're shouting. And how is DE going to regulate when you perform a finisher? Especially now that Heavy Attacks are a thing? 

Add a toggle to turn off finishers as he just said, a lot of the players asked about it already.

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On 2019-10-19 at 9:07 PM, HolySeraphin said:

You don't need to format your text like this to get attention, it looks like you're shouting. And how is DE going to regulate when you perform a finisher? Especially now that Heavy Attacks are a thing? 

I've been mentioning it for years, so I'm turning up the volume. Add a toggle in the options menu to let me ignore all finishers.

Stunned dude? Regular combo attacks.

Downed heavy? Yep, regular melee combo attack.

Snuck up behind an enemy by accident? Regular melee combo. 

When I ramped up so much that 1-3 hits kills anything, sweeping through masses with 200%+ range is my priority, not stopping to assassinate one goon. 

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Just now, LegendaryNeurotoxin said:

I've been mentioning it for years, so I'm turning up the volume. Add a toggle in the options menu to let me ignore all finishers.

Stunned dude? Regular combo attacks.

Downed heavy? Yep, regular melee combo attack.

Snuck up behind an enemy by accident? Regular melee combo. 

When I ramped up so much that 1-3 hits kills anything, sweeping through masses with 200%+ range is my priority, not stopping to assassinate one goon. 

What exactly are you using to proc so many finishers? A stance? Excal's blind? Inaros? 

There might be some problems with a toggle, like, you change to a finisher build and then to a conventional build, if you forget to change the toggle you might die.

Speaking of which, if Paragon is the new finisher weapon, how will it play during normal gameplay? Will it be used for normal finishers? Because they mentioned that covert lethality will be moved to them, and this would make it an actually guaranteed kill if you proc stun from skills or stances. If they do this and remove the ability to proc finishers with regular melee weapons then your issues are gone. But to do this they would need a specific command to perform the finisher, instead of just pressing the melee button.

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6 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

What exactly are you using to proc so many finishers? A stance? Excal's blind? Inaros? 

There might be some problems with a toggle, like, you change to a finisher build and then to a conventional build, if you forget to change the toggle you might die.

Speaking of which, if Paragon is the new finisher weapon, how will it play during normal gameplay? Will it be used for normal finishers? Because they mentioned that covert lethality will be moved to them, and this would make it an actually guaranteed kill if you proc stun from skills or stances. If they do this and remove the ability to proc finishers with regular melee weapons then your issues are gone. But to do this they would need a specific command to perform the finisher, instead of just pressing the melee button.

I don't open up enemies to things that proc finishers, but I also don't play solo. I can't expect to regulate every frame and school of every random player I join with, but I feel like it is acceptable for a master of melee to omit finishers. 

I don't play finisher builds, except to please Nora once in a while. But that's my bad for not turning the toggle off if I'm hunting a Nightwave act that needs finishers, and finishers on/off could feasibly be added to the loadout screen too. Because it isn't an equipment feature, it can be adjusted in the options menu mid-mission.

I don't expect activation of finishers to change just because it is going to a new tool. Unless they put it on its own button, which would be fine for PC, but I have no idea what the unused button availability is like for console gamepads. 

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On 2019-10-18 at 12:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

This has now been changed so that you will no longer drop items or unequip Gear Items when either equipping melee or using a Melee Attack! 

While I am loving the changes. I worry about a tiny thing which is captura. The way we take photos of just warframes is by equipping a synthesis scanner so that the warframe looks unarmed (while also showing idle animations without a weapon.) Is there a way we can get an unarmed option for captura now that the new melee system might remove our only way of taking the said theme of photos?

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Just now, LegendaryNeurotoxin said:

I don't open up enemies to things that proc finishers, but I also don't play solo. I can't expect to regulate every frame and school of every random player I join with, but I feel like it is acceptable for a master of melee to omit finishers. 

I don't play finisher builds, except to please Nora once in a while. But that's my bad for not turning the toggle off if I'm hunting a Nightwave act that needs finishers, and finishers on/off could feasibly be added to the loadout screen too. 

I don't expect activation of finishers to change just because it is going to a new tool. Unless they put it on its own button, which would be fine for PC, but I have no idea what the unused button availability is like for console gamepads. 

Wait a minute, will charge attacks still be a thing? (holding the melee button), are heavy attacks a separate thing? Because currently we only hold the melee button to perform combos or to use the charge attack, which will become redundant with heavy attacks, except for glaives, since you can throw them. Hm...damn it glaives, you're the ONE thing that ruins my idea. We could use the charged attack to perform finishers, but that would make glaives unable to thrown. Unles you can make it so that by tapping the secondary ttack button you use the heavy attack, and holding it throws the glaive as normal.

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So, as I melee 99.9% of the time, I thought I should chime in on the biggest changes that will affect how I either enjoy the game, or only play when I have to, to help my friend that I dragged over to Warframe...

The 2 points that stuck out the most, were 1) the "New Quick Melee" and subsequent video of the polearm using what looked like fluid, free-flowing attacks aimed by personal direction control, and not by locked in movement of a combo, interfering - which brings me hope that I'll be able to play with full control again. And 2) slam attacks only staggering enemies, instead of sending them flying far out of melee range - a very good change.

As long as those 2 points translate into actual gameplay in the update, I really don't care much about most of the rest, since I never used spin2win or channeling.

Increasing the range of currently short weapons, and making Reach/PrimedReach add a flat distance to each strike, seems fine to me - even though I used Primed Reach on a polearm, I didn't use it to "clear rooms" like those who are upset, did.

Increasing the base damage of weapons and removing the interaction with the combo counter will be an overall buff for how I play, since I generally move slowly through areas, cracking crates and opening lockers instead of killing everything as fast as possible (so I practically never have a combo counter, and never rely on it when I do build one up). Also, I didn't do endurance runs where I needed the scaling of my damage to match the scaling of enemies, so no loss for me, there.

Dodge Cancelling and Tactical Dodging... as I don't intend to use combos, not something I expect to make use of. Something more ninja-esque than a roll might be in order for a short range dodge.

Heavy Attacks seem useless to me if they empty your combo meter and anything of value is tied to the combo meter. I never used Life Strike, but tying it to Heavy Attacks is going potentially "waste" the combo meter... overkilling a weak enemy to use Life Strike's healing and not having that combo meter when you need it to help kill a stronger unit. Forcing people to mod for combo meter conservation (to not spend it all in a lump sum, like Equinox's Maim/Mend problem all over again, with a new face), feels bad.

It would be much better if Heavy Attacks spent a set amount of Combo Counter, rather than emptying it completely. That's far more friendly to changing circumstances, IMO.

 

Those are my preliminary thoughts. I have a LONG time to wait, on console. (I very much hope the quick melee is something I can look forward to, as I do not enjoy Wukong's Iron Staff.)

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It seems like there's a lot of confusion over whether charge attacks will still be a thing or not, or if they're getting replaced with heavy attacks. Any chance we could get some clarification?

I hope they're just getting moved to heavy attacks, because this would mean you could let us just hold the melee button to keep attacking, instead of having to break our hands mashing the button.

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