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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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vor 12 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Dyin-Kyo:

I rather see them nerf it to be lower and use all stacks than it to be higher with just 3

So true 

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So, as I melee 99.9% of the time, I thought I should chime in on the biggest changes that will affect how I either enjoy the game, or only play when I have to, to help my friend that I dragged over to Warframe...

The 2 points that stuck out the most, were 1) the "New Quick Melee" and subsequent video of the polearm using what looked like fluid, free-flowing attacks aimed by personal direction control, and not by locked in movement of a combo, interfering - which brings me hope that I'll be able to play with full control again. And 2) slam attacks only staggering enemies, instead of sending them flying far out of melee range - a very good change.

As long as those 2 points translate into actual gameplay in the update, I really don't care much about most of the rest, since I never used spin2win or channeling.

Increasing the range of currently short weapons, and making Reach/PrimedReach add a flat distance to each strike, seems fine to me - even though I used Primed Reach on a polearm, I didn't use it to "clear rooms" like those who are upset, did.

Increasing the base damage of weapons and removing the interaction with the combo counter will be an overall buff for how I play, since I generally move slowly through areas, cracking crates and opening lockers instead of killing everything as fast as possible (so I practically never have a combo counter, and never rely on it when I do build one up). Also, I didn't do endurance runs where I needed the scaling of my damage to match the scaling of enemies, so no loss for me, there.

Dodge Cancelling and Tactical Dodging... as I don't intend to use combos, not something I expect to make use of. Something more ninja-esque than a roll might be in order for a short range dodge.

Heavy Attacks seem useless to me if they empty your combo meter and anything of value is tied to the combo meter. I never used Life Strike, but tying it to Heavy Attacks is going potentially "waste" the combo meter... overkilling a weak enemy to use Life Strike's healing and not having that combo meter when you need it to help kill a stronger unit. Forcing people to mod for combo meter conservation (to not spend it all in a lump sum, like Equinox's Maim/Mend problem all over again, with a new face), feels bad.

It would be much better if Heavy Attacks spent a set amount of Combo Counter, rather than emptying it completely. That's far more friendly to changing circumstances, IMO.

 

Those are my preliminary thoughts. I have a LONG time to wait, on console. (I very much hope the quick melee is something I can look forward to, as I do not enjoy Wukong's Iron Staff.)

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It seems like there's a lot of confusion over whether charge attacks will still be a thing or not, or if they're getting replaced with heavy attacks. Any chance we could get some clarification?

I hope they're just getting moved to heavy attacks, because this would mean you could let us just hold the melee button to keep attacking, instead of having to break our hands mashing the button.

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Rest in Peace Covert Lethality. You will be missed. I hope this Parazon can be used against standard enemies since it's (as far as I'm aware) inheriting CL attributes. In hindsight, it would have made more sense for me to use my Xbox account. It's much further along. 

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My only immediate concern with these changes is Amalgam Organ Shatter.
Right now it is a perfect mod for melee weapon with a special charge attack such as the wolf sledge or zenistar, because their abilities rely on charge attacks, Amalgam Organ Shatter is a potentially important mod for some builds. There is no other mod that increases charge attack speed, so having that attribute removed takes away a lot of potential from these particular weapons. 
Not to mention, I've read through this post several times and I can't find any reason why this mod needs to be changed. Heavy attacks replace channeling, not charge attacks, so I find this change not only frustrating, but confusing. I see no reason why this mod shouldn't be left be, and a new mod can be made instead to increase heavy attack speed.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Bulldoz3rMan1 said:

This appears to cater to the flashy low level killing 20 minute community, if we are accepting that End game is Sorties and we dont need to push further (there is no longer reward incentives beyond an hour) Then this looks fun and I accept it for what it is. 

I think you kinda hit the nail on the head. There's no real reason to fight anything past lvl 100 except in Arbitrations and occasionally Disruption. This doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon.

It's not only ok but actually a good thing to pick a level and balance around that in a game like this. DE hasn't actually done that but bringing melee down to better suit the game as it currently exists is a good thing. Even though these are largely nerfs I see very little here that will actually make a noticeable difference in most content, with the exception of the 2 missions with consecutively repeating C rotations.

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6 hours ago, MadMattPrime said:

Read My post as I stated enemies are either dead due to slash procs killing them or the status has SLIPPED off because negative status duration rivens exist, 2-3 status procs froms +Damage rivens and Primed Pressure Point with condition overload  is more than enough to kill enemies below level 250.

What about enemies level 1000-4000 and beyond? We may be losing the melee capability to kill these enemies if the new numbers are bad. 

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Just now, George_PPS said:

What about enemies level 1000-4000 and beyond? We may be losing the melee capability to kill these enemies if the new numbers are bad. 

How many players actually fight against lvl1000 enemies? And even better, how much time you spend to actually reach those numbers?

On another hand, a harder mission starting at lvl120-200 would be a nice change. And to be honest sentients are perfect for this.

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The new system looks interesting, but not for a horde shooter. Also, melee is going to be useless with all those mod nerfs. I don't get why DE is so against melee being able to kill things.

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2 minutes ago, LuinCeltchar said:

The new system looks interesting, but not for a horde shooter. Also, melee is going to be useless with all those mod nerfs. I don't get why DE is so against melee being able to kill things.

It won't be useless, not in the slightest. Melee will remain largely unchanged for all content that the game asks of the player. You'll likely run into issues starting in the 200-300 level range but that is irrelevant to balance since you never have to fight that for literally any reason at all.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)Xanatoz9310 said:

So rip to everyone who uses melee weapons in endurance. Melee has no scaling now. This sucks. 

There should be equivalent mods for ALL primary and secondary weapons like Brood Rush, Condition Overload and Maiming Strike to buff guns enough to do long endurance and long survivals. Instead we are getting huge nerfs on melee weapons. ☹️

Players who haven’t tried or invested in great melee builds seriously don’t know what they are losing. 

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3 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

There should be equivalent mods for ALL primary and secondary weapons like Brood Rush, Condition Overload and Maiming Strike to buff guns enough to do long endurance and long survivals. Instead we are getting huge nerfs on melee weapons. ☹️

Players who haven’t tried or invested in great melee builds seriously don’t know what they are losing. 

We have veterans asking for harder content and you ask for more power? What? 

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Le 18/10/2019 à 16:01, Niajo a dit :

What about Khoras Whipclaw? Its a major loss of damage losing the combo multiplier.

 

Le 18/10/2019 à 16:53, sorcer3r a dit :

- Melee only sortie - lvl 100 exterminate -   is now considered as "endless" mission type? 🙂

 

- Melee Phase 2 = Ash rework or how do his abilities/augments fit into this update ???

 

 

 

Le 18/10/2019 à 16:54, Wiktoryk a dit :

Will Exalted Blade still generate weaker blind on slide attacks and use precious energy for it?

 

Le 18/10/2019 à 17:16, MunsuLight a dit :

@[DE]BearTbh with you I dont really care about the melee changes all that much even if They are looking super nice (Except the nerfs to the only mods that could scale the dmg well over level 200 enemies (BRush and CO))

But if these changes affect atlas landslide and khora whipclaw dmg I will be super mad . THe dmg they gain from the combo counter (using only their 1 ) is what make them powerful  and it would be not well advised to nerf the base dmg of them just because it is easier to gain combo counter .. also I hope that the new changes wont make them gain 0 combo counter if They are using only their 1 without using the  melee because it would be à Straight big nerf to them. Also it just prove how sometimes your team forget and are disconnected about all the small little details when implementing a new system . Sure the abilities even without the combo counter are good in their own but not for ultra long content . It need the multiplier to hold in long endurance runs. Your team seems to forget some of the long runners with this change and the BR CO changes

 

Il y a 21 heures, Gorrest a dit :

Will Warframe abilities that scale with combo multiplier still scale with combo multiplier? I.E Ash/Khora

 

Il y a 17 heures, auxy a dit :

I feel like this probably isn't getting the attention it deserves, so I'm quoting it as a form of bumping his post.

 

Il y a 6 heures, Kawalorn a dit :

So I guess Atlas's Landslide won't be getting any bonus damage from combo counter either? Too bad.

 

Il y a 6 heures, Bearadactyl-Prime a dit :

So how are the combo changes going to affect Atlas's Landslide ability? The changes to combo counter and how combos are stringed seem like they're going to affect how Landslide functions overall, and could easily break and build based around that ability. 

 

Il y a 6 heures, KitMeHarder a dit :
  • It'd be nice if we could rebind stance combos to whichever button-mash we prefer. Rebinding per stance instead of for each weapon is fine (maybe even preferable), and should be much less memory/server intensive.
  • This has been bugging me since its inception. But if you could have Umbra use Exalted Blade, or have him redraw it after I toggle operator mode, that'd be really nice. Because it really kills the "dynamic duo" vibe when I have to waste time and energy to re-draw Exalted Blade every time I need to use my operator.
  • If combo is no longer affecting the damage of melee weapons, make sure to not forget pseudo-exalteds in your stat re-balance. 
    • Ability 1 of Khora, Atlas, Gara, Excalibur
    • Ash's Blade Storm
    • Etc...

 

Il y a 1 heure, DenoRegina a dit :

Please don't forget to buff Warframe abilities that use the combo counter (Like Atlas' Landslide). Since losing the damage boost that the Combo Counter would give us, would mean that these abilities will deal significantly less damage.

 

Il y a 1 heure, (PS4)Bulldoz3rMan1 a dit :

I dont intend to come off Negative in this response so bare with me ppl

This appears to cater to the flashy low level killing 20 minute community, if we are accepting that End game is Sorties and we dont need to push further (there is no longer reward incentives beyond an hour) Then this looks fun and I accept it for what it is. 

Unless the condition overload increased percentage is around 150% the 3 cap will be a massive nerf to the potential and reward for applying the prior maximum status effects. 

Speaking on the Condition Overload topic, with the right builds and introduction of quick melee we have a great way to reward players for stacking status and then attacking with melee.  It is an enjoyable playstyle for me personally, it requires diverse builds and involves synergies from primary secondary and melee weapons. 

This new system eliminates the reason to utilize all three and simply focus on just two. 

While that sounds more convenient, it appears to me that this change is penalizing a player who puts in more effort to attain higher damage.  I really hope that the percentage increase to condition overload makes up for the 3 cap.

 

The conversation regarding Rage mode.

DOES BARRUK'S 4TH ABILITY GET TO RAGE MODE???

I have had much fun building Barruk to be a viable warframe in the current state of the game, I'm curious will his 4th as well as Excal's 4th Generate combo multiplier with distance strikes accompanying melee 3.0?  It is essentially nerfing their abilities. Currently it is a chore to gain combo multiplier with Barruk as he hurtles enemies across the map which is suprising satisfying.  That being said I have built him in a way where his exalted desert wind can keep up with other warframe's exalted abilities by capitalizing on Condition overload and going as far as to Umbral Forma his desert wind.  I'm concerned that melee 3.0 will reduce his potential

Can we just have a real answer on how it will change Warframe abilities beside the first answer we got in this thread by you   @[DE]Bear . People are afraid that this is gonna nerf the melee damage.. AND LIKE I already said, most people that use those Warframes abilities (Atlas, Khora) dont even use the melee so wont even benefit from the new easier combo counter to get. There is NO F***** Point in nerfing the base damage on them. Just keep it the way they are since they are an exception. I REPEAT we wont have an easier access to higher combo multi because we wont use melee while Using their 1.

It was easy enough to get to 3x or plus even in 10 minutes.. Unless it is easy to get to 4x you dont need to gut the base dmg. 

Also it would be nice to have consistencies with the different Exalted melee weapons . Wukong Valkyr have easy access to the benefit of combo counter while Baruuk and Excal cant . You need to fix these inconsistencies

 

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3 minutes ago, MunsuLight said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can we just have a real answer on how it will change Warframe abilities beside the first answer we got in this thread by you   @[DE]Bear . People are afraid that this is gonna nerf the melee damage.. AND LIKE I already said, most people that use those Warframes abilities (Atlas, Khora) dont even use the melee so wont even benefit from the new easier combo counter to get. There is NO F***** Point in nerfing the base damage on them. Just keep it the way they are since they are an exception. I REPEAT we wont have an easier access to higher combo multi because we wont use melee while Using their 1.

It was easy enough to get to 3x or plus even in 10 minutes.. Unless it is easy to get to 4x you dont need to gut the base dmg. 

Also it would be nice to have consistencies with the different Exalted melee weapons . Wukong Valkyr have easy access to the benefit of combo counter while Baruuk and Excal cant . You need to fix these inconsistencies

 

Baruuk currently uses the combo counter and excal uses the combo counter if you hit them with the actual sword

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Just now, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Baruuk currently uses the combo counter and excal uses the combo counter if you hit them with the actual sword

I think Khora and Atlas also increase combo counter.

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RIP Atterax?  RIP Spin to Win.

Seriously though, most of the changes seem good,  all of my gripes come down to this line...

 To reiterate: Select tools made Spin attacks optimal at the cost of the more interesting Melee system, and we’re trying to rectify that. 

It's clear that the goal of these changes is to change the game meta by making certain things more or less powerful... Which is fine,  I don't have any problem working harder for the same effects,  but nothing I've seen really is going to have the same effect..  Most of the changes seem like they're trying to make a worse Devil May Cry (which is a game I love for the record), rather than something that's a more balanced horde looter game.  Given what I've seen,  there is really nothing that's going to compel me to do something slower, or use any of the new mechanics at all!

Please!!! Make the hit boxes on the combos better!!!!  This way you take out the cheese but actually give something useful to the player.  If the button mash combo on Clashing Forest, or the pause combo on Swirling Tiger actually had reasonable range I'd gladly use those... you have all of the same mobility...

In the next mainline update I'm going to see the death of most of my exterminate builds, and probably some sort of rework on how I use Nekros... For most other things in the game there are already more effective tools than a spin to win, or WoF...  I don't really care that my exterminate time is probably going to go from 1:00 minute to 1:30,  or I'll invest a few more rolls in my Kohm riven and give Nekros a different melee. 

The thing is though I don't have the feeling that people will all start air juggling heavy gunners,  because that just isn't how Warframe works!  The instant you do that -- at higher levels -- something is going to shoot you in the back.  I do appreciate at lower levels that there will be a meaningful difference... but players at lower levels won't be using the cheese anyways.

Sorry if this post is an incoherent mess

  

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I'm just concerned that this is going to nerf Ash hard. Since his 4 scales with only a few things to increase its damage, included melee combo multiplier. Unless they make his 4 do Heavy Attacks, since it doesnt scale with weapon damage, its going to be doing about half, or one third of the damage, making it almost useless in higher levels, with the exception of giving you a short immunity

 

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1 minute ago, TheManSalad said:

I'm just concerned that this is going to nerf Ash hard. Since his 4 scales with only a few things to increase its damage, included melee combo multiplier. Unless they make his 4 do Heavy Attacks, since it doesnt scale with weapon damage, its going to be doing about half, or one third of the damage, making it almost useless in higher levels, with the exception of giving you a short immunity

 

They said that abilities that scale from the combo counter will still get the benefit, but at a lower pace due to the combo counter scalling faster now.

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Unless it's been asked before, in case refer me to response, what's going to stop daggers from falling out of fashion?

Swords are no brainers; Dual swords are cool; Polearms have long range; there's not a lot of staves, but they do stagger quite well; hammers do giant slam damage and are hard hitting; heavy blades hit hard and wide; whips can be used to pull people to you; fists strike fast and normally have a gimmick; and rapiers are fancy as all getout and are a nice balance between hard hits and fast combos. Glaives and gunblades are a whole 'nother ball game.

Daggers... they feel like they've been thrown to the wayside. Are we going to be getting a part to the combo system that makes the enemy open to finishers quite often? Or are they just going to act as shorter swords that don't swing as fast as fists?

Or maybe we could get a gimick where they act sort of like Kunai?

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From the Devstream. An unmodded Skana has 120 base dmg with the update. Right now its 35. Thats a ~240% increase in damage. So the baseline compensation is somewhere similar to a 3.5x combo multiplier right now. There might also be weapons getting further icnreases and changes since Skana is only your tutorial weapon and we are getting additional rebalancing similar to the one happened for primaries and secondaries which might actually make some already strong weapons even stronger at base.

Scaling for Blood Rush and Condition Overload.need to be seen. Both mods are tbh just beyond broken, reigning them in mgiht be a first step to actually get a hold of the nubmers in the game because as it is right now we wil never see interesting endgame because the numbers are just so all over the place and in complete misalignment with the content in the game.
Also, people have slaughtered enemies way past 100 even ebfore CO, Blood Rush and Body Count/Drifting Contact were around and given how with a decent riven you can make builds fully utilizing all of them combined while still including elements, range and slide crit melee scaling is beyond control right now and if we ever want serious endgame that provides a healthy challenge we need more than a fix to reward systems and armor scaling because dmg sclaing is jsut as broken.

Even if its a nerf for the moment at levels outside of any intended playing field it is overall healthier to eventually bring the challenges into the intended playing field, thats assuming that this is the long-term goal though and not just the new staus quo of melee damage though.

Personally sceptically optimistic. I hope Range isnt being gutted, since nobofy wins if the additive range increase is so puny it doesnt even matter for shorter ranged weapons.

WIth the current record of charged attacks I'm also hoping these heavy attacks are worth using. A single hit taking 3 times the time of a nomral attack for triple damage is nobody going to use, especially if its also consuming a resource you have to build for it. Those attacks better be really hard nukes you can utilize to blow up priority targets to give them a niche that isnt already covered by double range red crit slide attacks. I'm also a bit concerned about Life Strike, since that has been a cornerstone of sustain for my melee heavy play style on a lot of frames, especially those who lack 90%+ dmg reductions (HI, Excal my fallend favorite) and having channel being a toggle was already a huge pain.

I really like getting back access to a full melee mode. The loss of melee aim gliding, manual blocking and access to blocking combos without accidentally switching to your gun were pretty annoying and I simply went away from weapons which heavily utilized blocking combos as it felt like a hassle and wasn't very enjoyable.

In the end a lot here boils down to numbers which are completely missing from the workshop. SUch changes always boil down to numbers and while I like the overall direction of this melee rework as a as-far-as-possible melee only player its success hinges entirely on if it retains the power of melee weapons or expands upon the usability of melee weapons. If range is bad after the changes, its gonna suck because walking up to every single enemy to knock them out just isn't a good plan for this game. There are already S#&$ ton of absolutely fantastic melee wepaons who are insane on paper and do ridiculous damage (Hi Dual Swords with Carving Mantis) but don't get ANY traction because you are faster finishing your mission by cleaving through 10 enemies with even a quarter of the damage rather than oneshotting one by one. (Which is also due to how broken numbers are)
Similarly if damage just falls down stories upon stories there will be no point in not just shooting things. There needs to be a distinct pay-off by needing to get closer to enemies and given how much work and how distinct the melee system in Warframe actually is, I simply don't buy it being complimentary and jsut a side-arm story, even if there are a ton of badly designed bosses you can't really melee.

 

TL,DR
I'm sceptically optimistic because I like the general direction and how it helps a bit laying ground work for making the game's state endgame viable by reigning in scaling.
But since the changes are so deep at the core numbers matter a lot because melee weapons compete with ranged wepaons and aren't just a side-arm or a mere compliment.
Especially range and throughput are important and without the numbers ot the mod changes there is no judgement to be made, a lot is speculation and the changes affect the melee meta in such a fundamental way that it can go any way, from an absolutely fantastic powerhouse of a system to a complete garbage fire with shiny stickers attached for pointless flashiness.

 

 

Edited by Raikh
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7 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

They said that abilities that scale from the combo counter will still get the benefit, but at a lower pace due to the combo counter scalling faster now.

OH... you are a hero.

 

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2 minutes ago, TheManSalad said:

OH... you are a hero.

 

Complete response from [DE] Bear, the OP of this thread:

"A few folks have mentioned this, so just to quickly address: After the initial ask, the idea is that Warframe powers that are based on the combo counter will still get that benefit, but there will be some balance adjustments, as getting higher multipliers on the combo counter is much, much easier to do now. As of this point, I have no further details on that interaction, sorry!"- source- page 9

Edited by HolySeraphin

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I mean, you're arguing with people that freaks out before even saying the actual numbers and the impact on gameplay. We have here heroes who are already saying that "melee will not kill anything, melee will not scale anymore" etc... before they even know the actual impact of the rework. And they can't even read properly what is stated on page 1 for the most part.

How are we even supposed to reason like this ? How does it works ?
Did DE specifically says they will nerf melee ? No. They say they will nerf Maiming Strike because it's absurdly strong and turn the whole game into a joke. They literally NEVER said they will nerf CO and BR, they will just change how they works.

Edited by Isokaze_BestKaze
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