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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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Edo Prime armor set... how will it's lightning effect while channeling be working with channeling being removed?

Thank you for all this work; though I have my issues with channeling being removed, I think it was a very good mechanic that has always been overlooked. 

Edited by BLI7Z
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10 minutes ago, TheHappyTyranid said:

Unless it's been asked before, in case refer me to response, what's going to stop daggers from falling out of fashion?

Swords are no brainers; Dual swords are cool; Polearms have long range; there's not a lot of staves, but they do stagger quite well; hammers do giant slam damage and are hard hitting; heavy blades hit hard and wide; whips can be used to pull people to you; fists strike fast and normally have a gimmick; and rapiers are fancy as all getout and are a nice balance between hard hits and fast combos. Glaives and gunblades are a whole 'nother ball game.

Daggers... they feel like they've been thrown to the wayside. Are we going to be getting a part to the combo system that makes the enemy open to finishers quite often? Or are they just going to act as shorter swords that don't swing as fast as fists?

Or maybe we could get a gimick where they act sort of like Kunai?

I'd wager daggers would have higher crit chance, crit damage, status, and attack speed, in exchange for shorter range, lighter base damage, and lower deflection angle. So they're good for procs, but need to be used up close. 

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Overall, based on initial impressions, I'm excited about the upcoming Melee 3.0 Phase 2 changes. The flow of combat looks improved. I do have a few suggestions regarding combat mechanics, but most of my suggestions for improvement are directed at proposed Melee Mod reworks.

 

On 2019-10-18 at 12:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

5. Combo Counter Rework
The Combo Counter will be getting a new functionality pass. Rather than just providing flat bonuses to damage, the Combo Counter will now also act as an expendable resource for new heavy hitting combat: HEAVY ATTACKS!

On 2019-10-18 at 12:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Base Damage - Since the Combo Multiplier will apply to Heavy Attacks only, the base damage of all melee weapons is going to significantly increase. Expect to see some big numbers! Full details will be in the Update notes, but every weapon is going up. 

The wording of the two statements above slightly conflict and muddy the water because the first quote says "Rather than just..." and "will now also act." This made me think Combo Counter damage multiplier could still be a thing and Heavy Attacks would be an addition. However, it appears not.

 

On 2019-10-18 at 12:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Blood Rush - Will now scale differently, using a stacking multiplier based on the Combo Counter, raising (X)% per Combo Counter tier (something much easier to achieve in Phase 2). We will provide the final % pending more testing. 

On 2019-10-18 at 12:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Maiming Strike - Changes from an additive buff to a stacking buff, but base functionality increased to a Significant % of the old version to balance the change. Final % to come soon.

I think I can visualize how Blood Rush is going to be reworked. It could either still be multiplied after modded CC, and the scaling is being adjusted just because Combo damage multiplier is being removed.  It could otherwise be changing to a relative bonus of base CC stacking additive to other CC mods.

I'm cannot fully envision how this fixes Maiming Strike. There will still be other absolute increases (i.e. Arcane Avenger & Cat's Eye). Will this become a modded bonus as well? All absolute bonuses should just be added after modded CC is multiplied by Blood Rush.

I think these mods could almost be preserved in their current state by adjusting the values presented in the Spoiler window below.

Spoiler

# Current CC formula with just Atterax, BR, and MS:  Atterax crit (.25), True Steel (.6), Maiming Strike (.9), Combo multiplier (2), Blood Rush (1.65) 

    (.25 * (1 + 0.6) + .9) * (1 + 2 * 1.65) = 1.3 * 4.3 = 5.59 (559% Critical Chance)

# My proposed change of MS being added after modded damage is multiplied by BR. It includes new Gladiator set bonus (.6) and max Sacrificial Pressure (better progression) (1.2). This might be too nerfed but it preserves both mods in their current form.

# Modified "Maiming Strike" absolute bonus to be applied "additive after"

    [(.25 * (1 + 0.6)) * (1 + 2 * 1.65)] + .9 = .4 * 4.3 + .9 = 1.72 + .9 = 2.62 (262%)

# Most available in-game CC applied to Atterax adding absolute bonuses after multiplying (Blood Rush + Gladiator set) by base damage * relative bonuses.

    [(Atterax * (1 + Max Sacrificial Steel + Max True Punishment)) * (1 + Combo Multiplier * (Max Blood Rush + Full Gladiator Set))] + (Max Maiming Strike + Cat's Eye + Arcane Avenger)

    [(.25 * (1 + 1.2 + .4)) * (1 + 2 * (1.65 + .6))] + (.9 + .6 + .3)  = .65 * 5.5 + 1.8 = 3.575 + 1.8 = 5.375 (538%)

538% CC seems reasonable relative to the investment required.

 

On 2019-10-18 at 12:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Condition Overload - Now stacks at a maximum of 3 Status Effects, however damage is being increased from 60% to a higher percent to balance the change. Final % to come. 

I wonder if the value Condition Overload is given will be comparable. I've seen other replies discussing values. isreasonable. I support 48% using a cap of 6 status effects: 1.48^6 = 10.51. About the same as current 60% at 5 status effects. I think a max damage multiplier of about 10x is reasonable. I agree another option, considering the purposed change of 3 status effects, would be 120% per status: 2.2^3 = 10.648.

Quickening should have the cost reduced to base of 4/max of 7. Right now it has the same max cost as Fury; but it is harder to obtain, has 10% less bonus, and has the negative effect to Combo counter.

In addition, since melee mods are receiving a rework pass, I thought I should suggest other melee mods with progression that should be adjusted. Single element 90% mods should have their cost reduced. This makes the 60/60's a little less appealing since for two more ranks you can have 90% damage. This should be adjust for Primaries and Secondaries as well.

The progress of Primed Pressure Point has always bothered me. It costs 300,000 credits and 385 ducats to purchase. Then, after additional credits and endo, it isn't better than Pressure Point until rank 8. Most other Primed mods have matching or better progression to their non-Primed version. I think the base value should be doubled to 30% and then increment by 15%. This would make it better than Pressure Point at ranks 0-2 and 7-10. It only raises the top value to 180%. Reasonable for the cost IMHO.

I had similar concerns with Sacrificial Pressure/Steel. All I did was double the first values and maintained the same increment. This makes the max set bonus: 150% dmg, 90% sentient, and 120% CC which puts Sacrificial Pressure between Pressure Point and Primed Pressure Point.

Tables with adjusted values in Spoiler section below.

Spoiler
Elemental damage mods Condition Overload Primed Pressure Point      
Rank Effect Cost Rank Effect Cost Rank Effect Cost      
0 15% 4 0 8% 10 0 30% 4      
1 30% 5 1 16% 11 1 45% 5      
2 45% 6 2 24% 12 2 60% 6      
3 60% 7 3 32% 13 3 75% 7      
4 75% 8 4 40% 14 4 90% 8      
5 90% 9 5 48% 15 5 105% 9      
Quickening       6 120% 10      
Rank Attack Speed Cost       7 135% 11      
0 5% 4       8 150% 12      
1 10% 5       9 165% 13      
2 15% 6       10 180% 14      
3 20% 7                  
Sacrificial Pressure Sacrificial Steel
Rank Melee Dmg Sentient Dmg Melee Dmg Sentient Dmg Cost Rank Crit Chance Sentient Dmg Crit Chance Sentient Dmg Cost
0 20.0% 6.0% 25.0% 7.5% 6 0 16.0% 6.0% 20.0% 7.5% 6
1 30.0% 9.0% 37.5% 11.3% 7 1 24.0% 9.0% 30.0% 11.3% 7
2 40.0% 12.0% 50.0% 15.0% 8 2 32.0% 12.0% 40.0% 15.0% 8
3 50.0% 15.0% 62.5% 18.8% 9 3 40.0% 15.0% 50.0% 18.8% 9
4 60.0% 18.0% 75.0% 22.5% 10 4 48.0% 18.0% 60.0% 22.5% 10
5 70.0% 21.0% 87.5% 26.3% 11 5 56.0% 21.0% 70.0% 26.3% 11
6 80.0% 24.0% 100.0% 30.0% 12 6 64.0% 24.0% 80.0% 30.0% 12
7 90.0% 27.0% 112.5% 33.8% 13 7 72.0% 27.0% 90.0% 33.8% 13
8 100.0% 30.0% 125.0% 37.5% 14 8 80.0% 30.0% 100.0% 37.5% 14
9 110.0% 33.0% 137.5% 41.3% 15 9 88.0% 33.0% 110.0% 41.3% 15
10 120.00% 36.00% 150.00% 45.00% 16 10 96.00% 36.00% 120.00% 45.00% 16

 

On 2019-10-18 at 12:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

We also have redesigned the utility of blocking: Blocking will now prevent 100% of damage,  with a blocking angle that is dependent on the melee weapon equipped. All successful Blocks will also add to the new Combo Counter!

I don't mind that manual blocking is 100% DR in frontal cone. I'm surprised they did not cap it at 90% likes most other DR so their is still some danger from frontal enemies. I'm OK with auto-block, but think it should cap at about 75% since the warframe's state is not dedicated melee. This creates some incentive to swap to manual blocking. I also would support auto-blocking not triggering while airborne.

 

Soft Lock-on

I've seen others mention a Dark Souls like lock-on. Although, I'm a big fan of Soulsborne, I don't think that implementation would fit Warframe. However, I have been think about a softer enemy lock like Assassin's Creed games pre-Origins. An enemy the reticle is pointing at has a gentle hightlight or overhead marker or both. The soft lock could get firmer the closer you get to melee range.

It could be toggle off if it is too immersion breaking, but I think it would open other opportunities like color coding the soft-lock target for shotgun damage falloff or things like that.

Edited by (XB1)RakishLion84
Grammar, spelling, and corrections to BR and MS

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il y a 44 minutes, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo a dit :

Baruuk currently uses the combo counter and excal uses the combo counter if you hit them with the actual sword

My point wasnt from hitting with an actual sword. It was hitting with the exalted like Valkyr and WUkong does..

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So I've only skimmed most of the thread for the one topic I'm still concerned about, and have only seen it mentioned a few times without much follow-up- so heavy attacks are done via pressing alt-fire with melee in hand? That's extremely impractical on controllers where I already avoid any alt-fire that isn't a mode shift, as I hate using stick buttons for anything that isn't functionally a toggle, they're so clunky.

Are charge attacks where you hold down the button still a thing? Mod changes makes it sound like no, if so, wouldn't that be a better option? I also heard someone else upthread recommend the reload button while melee weapons are in hand for heavy attacks, that would be good too.

(Also R1/right bumper while holding L2/left trigger to aim down sights would be a nice optional binding for alt fire, just saying)

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4 minutes ago, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

I mean, you're arguing with people that freaks out before even saying the actual numbers and the impact on gameplay. We have here heroes who are already saying that "melee will not kill anything, melee will not scale anymore" etc... before they even know the actual impact of the rework. And they can't even read properly what is stated on page 1 for the most part.

How are we even supposed to reason like this ? How does it works ?
Did DE specifically says they will nerf melee ? No. They say they will nerf Maiming Strike because it's absurdly strong and turn the whole game into a joke. They literally NEVER said they will nerf CO and BR, they will just change how they works.

With CO, at least, I think it will be a nerf. Right now you can get up to 6 statuses on an enemy. Right? With 60% for 6 statuses, you can get 360% damage. After update, it will only stack up to 3 times, for whatever percentage they will end up with. Unless they make it 120%, it will be a potential nerf. Only potential though, since they said they are planning on having it higher than 60%, it will be a buff for lower level content. BUT, I'm not good at math, and I'm not a theory crafter, or whatever they call it. It sounds like it will be nerfed but... whatever, ya know?

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On 2019-10-19 at 3:42 AM, CodeUltimate said:

I do not agree with the nerf to condition overload. Now you won't need to have a status weapon to pair it with your melee so that will make weapons like the cyanex to be utterly useless. xd

I don’t either.

 

But just to reply to everyone who say condition overload is flat out bad now: it is not. Worst case scenario, the percentiles aren’t changed but the math is: it’s still a 68% increase after primed pressure point. That’s still substantial, especially if you have more than one elemental mod in your build. Now best case scenario where math is untouched and multiplier is now +100%: 8x damage. (No multi changes still mean 4.10x extra damage) Not quite 6/status levels of tomfoolery but still equal to 4 of them. Yes it’s going to slow down demolyst killing a little, but I think that it’s not really going to be relevant until endurance levels and we have frames for that. I’ll have to wait, but the worst things that could happen would likely be to people who use single target proc secondaries. (Like me). 
Still don’t agree with it but it looks decent even if it’s worst case scenario.

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A Question comes to mind: Will the combo counter drain from heavy attacks be influenced in some way by Power spike in the Naramon Tenno school? (Like say, when using a heavy attack, drain a set amount of the combo counter rather than the whole counter by X amount with each use.)

Edited by (XB1)Skullstachio

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You guys must secretly be working on a mobile version of WF...cause everything you do seems to be focused on short missions...

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17 minutes ago, -AxHx-Vile said:

You guys must secretly be working on a mobile version of WF...cause everything you do seems to be focused on short missions...

It's almost like DE have stated many, many times that endurance runs are not something they wish to encourage let alone balance their game around...

Edited by Lapideus
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1 minute ago, Lapideus said:

It's almost like DE have stated many, many times that endurance runs are not something they wish to encourage let alone balance their game around...

It's almost like people have been asking for more veteran focused content and endurance runs are the only things that even remotely come close to a challenge...
But hey, it doesn't matter anymore now ey...the vast majority of them are gone anyway.

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22 minutes ago, -AxHx-Vile said:

You guys must secretly be working on a mobile version of WF...cause everything you do seems to be focused on short missions...

Again, again, again, and again, what are you basing your assumption on ?

Did you read the thread properly ?

Or are you just having a kneejerk reaction before seeing any real number and impact on gameplay ?

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6 hours ago, Gnohme said:

O ok - thank u  -

 

not with slams tho?

Whit slams, I think rocket hammer will ragdoll instead of lifting. Maybe all hammers will do that, but we will see.

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5 minutes ago, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

Did you read the thread properly ?

Did you?

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Just now, -AxHx-Vile said:

Did you?

I did. And beside Maiming Strike absolutely deserved nerf, literally nothing says your melee will be less effective than before. And nothing say they will scale worse than before.

We don't have any idea of new weapon damage, we don't know how CO and BR will change and at what percentage. But you and other people immediately switched to whining mode.

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb sorcer3r:

If this works against high valuable targets like demolysts then it will be fun.

But in typical horde situations I am not sure how this slow attacking should be an alternative for fast spin attacks. ( or where in all this melee rework is the alternative for spin attacks?)

Despite the suspected melee damage nerf I hope  warfame is the right game for such slow and single target focused attacks ...

 

 

We all know it isn't. Why spent 5 seconds slicing up a single trooper (while his buddies are still shooting you!) if you can walk through hallways holding M1 on an Ignis Wraith? (Or on an Amprex, or a Braton Prime, or a Quanta, or whatever doesn't get nerfed after this LOL)

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6 minutes ago, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

And beside Maiming Strike absolutely deserved nerf

Ah, you're one of these...ok kiddo. 

6 minutes ago, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

we don't know how CO and BR will change and at what percentage. But you and other people immediately switched to whining mode.

We get a pretty good idea from the post and how things are written.

And yeah I wonder why...probably because all faith in DE has gone over the years. One of those awkward love the game don't like the devs kind of situations.

Edited by -AxHx-Vile
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Mastery Rank - Weapons will be reviewed to make sure their function and power are aligned with an appropriate Mastery Rank, similar to passes made on Primary and Secondary weapons. Full details will be in the Update Notes! 

 

ok so again with this Mastery since im rank 15 (i got 1000+ hours of gameplay and am at 415+ log in days so keep that "look low lvl must be new/newb" S#&$ to yourselfs ok thnx)

there is a chance that some of my weapons wich i allrdy got or want will be locked ? why rly WHY do you guys keep insisting with this mastery crap i have been playing since you guys launched so why am i only rank 15 cuz i dont play all (lvl) warframes or weapons i love this game but if your gona lock everything behind Mastery your gona rly make it hard for me to keep loving it

 

look i get it when your randoms are lvl 9 you think they suck but they dont have to and if you cap MR at 15 it is high enough to understand the core mechanics of the game

or give us "veteran" (a veteran is not a MR 25+ but one thats been here from launch) players a log in reward or like 1000+ days played an option to buy an item or such wich removes the MR with Plat

 

anyways thnx for the huge update ( and Grendel finaly a thicc boi :D ) future will tell if we are parting ways or not :)

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On 2019-10-18 at 4:28 PM, (PS4)Oracle-Raven said:

"Reach / Primed Reach - long-range weapons were getting too much of a benefit"

No, DE.
Just NO.


This nerf alone to melee range is enough to make me lose all hope in the upcoming melee changes and make me want to quit Warframe altogether.
There is no way nerfing range on long-range melee weapons can be any fun, and at this point you're just forcing me to use Mesa if I want to have a moderately good time.
Not good.

you need Mesa to have a good time? She is the most boring Warframe

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Overall i will ahve to play to judge, but small remark as an avid Valkyr player: if heavy attacks will just heal anyone, and anyone will have this tactical currency often, then Valkyr Hysteria lost a lot of its uniqness and appeal, with its 5% life steal. Please think about buffing up hysteria somehow.

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1 minute ago, -AxHx-Vile said:

Ah, you're one of these...ok kiddo. 

 

Yes, I'm one of these. Seeing a player with Atterax and Maiming Strike going spin2win around the whole map, destroying everything without even trying was completely ruining my fun. It is/was completely silly, broken, and frankly not needed (and will never be needed) at the level I'm mostly playing at (1 hour arbitration mostly).

I have a Gram Prime Riven with a 100%crit chance with slide attack. Combined with the spin2win stance and Berserker it's completely STUPID. There's literally no reason to play any other weapon or even any frame ability. Which is why I don't play it.

Maiming Strike deserved to disappear as it was. It's not a "warframe" gameplay.

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1 minute ago, Isokaze_BestKaze said:
 

Yes, I'm one of these. Seeing a player with Atterax and Maiming Strike going spin2win around the whole map, destroying everything without even trying was completely ruining my fun. It is/was completely silly, broken, and frankly not needed (and will never be needed) at the level I'm mostly playing at (1 hour arbitration mostly).

I have a Gram Prime Riven with a 100%crit chance with slide attack. Combined with the spin2win stance and Berserker it's completely STUPID. There's literally no reason to play any other weapon or even any frame ability. Which is why I don't play it.

Maiming Strike deserved to disappear as it was. It's not a "warframe" gameplay.

"Maiming strike ruined my fun"

"I have a gram riven with crit on slide"

Flawless logic

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2 minutes ago, -AxHx-Vile said:

"Maiming strike ruined my fun"

"I have a gram riven with crit on slide"

Flawless logic

"which is why I don't play it".

Read everything properly would you ? I got that Riven, tried it, dismissed it as completely silly, never touched the weapon again (because Gram is equally broken tbh).

But if I never used it, you probably would have answered as "you don't use Maiming strike so you don't know anything". I guess ?

What argumentation.

 

And that shows again that you only cherry pick what you believe instead of reading everything properly. "Muh melee nerf, I don't know how any of this will change but melee will never scale again".

Edited by Isokaze_BestKaze
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1 minute ago, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

"which is why I don't play it".

Read properly would you ? I got that Riven, tried it, dismissed it as completely silly, never touched the weapon again (because Gram is equally broken tbh).

But if I never used it, you probably would have answered as "you don't use Maiming strike so you don't know anything". I guess ?

What argumentation.

Then why even own it? Why even try it if maiming already ruined your fun?

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2 minutes ago, -AxHx-Vile said:

Then why even own it? Why even try it if maiming already ruined your fun?

Because that's a riven I rolled ? I always try whatever riven I get to see for myself how they work on whatever weapon ?

Can you believe people actually try things instead of always using the same weapon ?

And I believe you're derailing the thread now.

Edited by Isokaze_BestKaze
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