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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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2 minutes ago, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

Because that's a riven I rolled ? I always try whatever riven I get to see for myself how they work on whatever weapon ?

Can you believe people actually try things instead of always using the same weapon ?

I can believe it if they don't "whine" about it before that sure...

Gonna stop wasting time with you / on here now...have fun with getting more things you already know you don't enjoy to 'try them'...

"Whiskey gives me headaches...let's try another whiskey though" 

Edited by -AxHx-Vile
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3 hours ago, HolySeraphin said:

Wait a minute, will charge attacks still be a thing? (holding the melee button), are heavy attacks a separate thing? Because currently we only hold the melee button to perform combos or to use the charge attack, which will become redundant with heavy attacks, except for glaives, since you can throw them. Hm...damn it glaives, you're the ONE thing that ruins my idea. We could use the charged attack to perform finishers, but that would make glaives unable to thrown. Unles you can make it so that by tapping the secondary ttack button you use the heavy attack, and holding it throws the glaive as normal.

Amalgam OS was changed to be for Heavy attacks instead of Charge, so they're gone.

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Sorry if this was mentioned. 

 

I know they mentioned Forma, Affinity, legendary cores to help compensate for the change.  What about focus lens? Depending on how some weapons change I might not want to have place the lens on them anymore, and I find them more annoying to farm than forma or affinity. 

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10 hours ago, (PS4)Dersu42 said:

Looks like melee is now a low level option only. Unless they plan to remove scaling content altogether.

Capping condition overload,  turning maiming strike into just another basic crit buff and turning the combo counter into an expendable resource that is drained with every heavy attack rendering bloodrush ineffective for large portions of combat are all incredible nerfs. 

These are fine provided you give players different scaling options.

If heavy attacks were to do fixed percentages of enemy health based on combo counter,  then melee could focus on building combo quickly,  using it efficiently and increasing heavy attack damage % per combo spent. 

If you do not provide additional scaling options for melee all of your hard work on this system only serves to render it obsolete. 

Some players want harder enemies. Instead, we are getting massive and extremely hard nerfs in melee’s capacity in endurance and high level enemies. Why can’t guns get buffs but to nerf what works? 

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Looking forward to the changes in phase 2.

[DE] is like:

On 2019-10-18 at 10:58 AM, [DE]Bear said:

THE FUTURE

14. Lastly: Channeling 2.0 AKA “Rage Mode”

Me:

 Eva01_berserk.png

 

 

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vor 42 Minuten schrieb (XB1)C11H22O11:

you need Mesa to have a good time? She is the most boring Warframe

Look at it this way: If the new melee LOOKS awesome but is utterly bad at getting rid of enemies (while it has to compete with stuff like Mesa, Saryn, Ignis Wraith, Beam Kitguns) then noone is going to use it. It'll look very cool. And noone is going to use it.

Try using Melee RIGHT NOW in Arbitrations without getting oneshot the second you run into a batch of enemies with a shield drone you didn't take down fast enough. Fun innit? Now imagine doing that without Primed Reach long range melee weapons. Congratulations, now you see why the only way forward is going to be Mesa

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It all looks very good so far. I had envisioned the combo counter as becoming a resource to be used for something originally, so it's pretty neat to see that random idea make it in.

However, a couple things that I had concerns about.

1: Blocking/aiming combos. A lot of the new functions reference blocking and aiming. However, for the default setup that most people use, RMB is the aim key, and in the current melee system, aiming brings you back to your gun. My question is that, will these combos and functions be available while in 'quick melee' mode, or will you have to completely swap to melee mode to take advantage of these features? On that note, is it possible to block at all in quick melee mode, like it is currently?

2: Ragdolls, ragdolls. I read that some of the new combos would inflict ragdolls (as some combos do currently.) My complaint is just how utterly erratic and disgusting ragdolling is in warframe. This is a fault of the physics engine itself. Ragdolled enemies are near impossible to follow up with any attacks while the bodies spazz around the entire map. I implore the team to focus more on simple knockdowns rather than ragdolling - or somehow fix the ragdoll physics in general (which seems like a tall order). Either that, or just leave it out of the melee systems.

3. Short range weapons. While it's looking promising so far based on information, I still am really hoping that using fist and dagger type weapons becomes just as satisfying as using giant stick type weapons. And in this current system, +range mods are basically mandatory for any build, I've discovered. Due to the game's nature as a horde warfare game, large range simply trumps any other strength boost you might use a mod slot for. I can see that you are trying to rectify this, and I hope that primed reach isn't still a "mandatory mod" when the update drops.

Other than that, it's looking really cool so far.

Edited by Endorphinz

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life leech only work on smash make tenneo die easily.

my point is give the stance some damage decrease  when you use stance otherwhile you have plan to solve survival problem

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That's a lot of change. I understand the fundamental need for the changes. I want to be open to them and actually try them out. Many of them look and sound cool. I suppose I have reservations because while I want the new system to be viable, I'm wondering how viable it will prove to be in practice. For it to be viable, other parts of the game (especially enemy design and the rewards structure and the grind) will still need to change sooner rather than later.

The gameplay loop is generally kill everything as fast as possible with the hardest hitting thing in our arsenal, get to the reward, and get out. Enjoying air-juggling an enemy doesn't really serve a purpose in that loop. Yet.

Don't wait too long to address the other areas that need fundamental change, or to continue trying to change that gameplay loop in a way that feels rewarding for the base. Otherwise, the meta for many will just shift away from melee as the hardest hitting thing and settle on something else.

Auto-blocking: Why can't we have both? A simple toggle in the options screen can keep both camps happy. Personally, I really like the auto-block. It has denied several enemies frontal knockdown and/or drag spam. Often I might be looking in their direction, but with so many enemies in front of me I'm dealing with, I still won't see that one knockdown or drag coming. The auto-block is really nice in those situations.

If other people want to actively choose to block in incoming attack, they can do that by toggling auto-block of frontal attacks off in options.

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as a sole user of short range melee (usually dual swords: dark split sword, nami skyla, dex dakra) and frequent player of 1 hr + arbitrations and 1 hr index runs, these changes are extremely frightening.

while the improvement to combo/movement fluidity and getting rid of maiming-copters and making life better for short-range melee users is VERY welcome, there is no reason to change Condition Overload and Blood Rush! 

My typical move against stronger enemies is to "prime" enemies with a status-based secondary then follow up with melee with Blood Rush and Condition Overload. THIS IS CURRENTLY WORKING FOR ENEMIES UP TO LEVEL 300-400.

This is only because:

1. The Critical Chance that gets amplified by Blood Rush is currently able to be first boosted by mods: true steel/sacrificial steel/arcane avenger/riven crit chance. this results in consistent red (i typically get 400% and above) crit hits.

2. with a kitgun, I can apply 6 status effects onto an enemy for condition overload, so unless if you double the damage per status effect to 120% after capping the maximum status effects to 3 (which is highly unlikely), it's going to be an overall nerf.

While I have been eagerly waiting for Channeling to be turned into something that is more viable and it seems like it has (im actually looking forward to the heavy attacks!), it seems to only make melee strikes more damaging occasionally. The core of Warframe melee is that its  high damage scaling is consistent on every hit, allowing players to negotiate higher level enemies. It has been that way for a long time and has become a familiar and loved feature. Players like me who routinely play missions against very high (200+) level enemies exist. And we need melee to be kept strong.

Please don't take that away from us, DE. 💕

Edited by angel_bee
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51 minutes ago, Fogg said:

Looking forward to the changes in phase 2.

[DE] is like:

Me:

 Eva01_berserk.png

 

 

Me after reading this:

Imagem relacionada

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by HolySeraphin
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Wow, Bear, you and your team have done some amazing work here.  Re-doing all of these already amazing stances sounds like an avalanche of work.  I'm very excited to get my hands on this!  Honestly I'm pumped about everything you've talked about and wouldn't change a thing (as far as what's on paper).  Really I just want to throw out some of the things i really like and a few questions:

  • I love being able to block again.  Its no fun if the computer does it all for me.  Melee if one of my favorite parts of this game, if I can't do it myself then its no fun.  That seems to be a big focus for DE right now in general, none of this "set it-forget it" stuff and i'm 100% in support of that.  Plus this gets us our melee aim glide again.
  • Range:  Some of my favorite weapons (Venka) are lower in range.  I'm happy to see that range mods will have an (more) affect on these now.
  • I noticed that this has already been mentioned but what about Zenuik and Naramon-Will these change with this update?  I mentioned that I love melee and thus use Naramon almost exclusively.  What will happen to this?  At first it sounded like a change would be mandatory, but after reading some of your follow-up posts it sounds like heavy attacks won't use up ALL of the combo counter.  It this correct?  If that's correct, then Naramon will basically still function to add flexibility to my resources on the melee side.  Please elaborate if you can.  
  • Oh, one piece of feedback-I felt that the combo's in Wukongs exalted arsenal were amazing but I felt like the button inputs needed to be super quick.  It wouldn't surprise me if this has already been adjusted or just something I need to get used to, but wanted to throw it out there anyway.

I really appreciate that you've been very communicative on this thread.  Please keep it up.  I fell in love with this game at melee 2.0 and I'm more than excited to see 3.0!

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3 hours ago, HolySeraphin said:

We have veterans asking for harder content and you ask for more power? What? 

You are not getting it. I support having harder enemies but not in the forms of nerfing our powers so much that super high level enemies are much harder or even impossible to kill. 

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3 hours ago, RWBY-WhiteRose said:

I don’t either.

 

But just to reply to everyone who say condition overload is flat out bad now: it is not. Worst case scenario, the percentiles aren’t changed but the math is: it’s still a 68% increase after primed pressure point. That’s still substantial, especially if you have more than one elemental mod in your build. Now best case scenario where math is untouched and multiplier is now +100%: 8x damage. (No multi changes still mean 4.10x extra damage) Not quite 6/status levels of tomfoolery but still equal to 4 of them. Yes it’s going to slow down demolyst killing a little, but I think that it’s not really going to be relevant until endurance levels and we have frames for that. I’ll have to wait, but the worst things that could happen would likely be to people who use single target proc secondaries. (Like me). 
Still don’t agree with it but it looks decent even if it’s worst case scenario.

With my Wisp setup and utilizing a dagger zaw with Exodia Contagion, I can utilize Condition Overload at present to deal scaling damage.

Keep in mind that Blast and Gas count as two status procs.

Wisp’s Shock Mote obviously can proc electricity, her Breach Surge can proc Radiation. My dagger Zaw is modded for Gas. Exodia Contagion on projectile can proc Impact or Viral along with the aforementioned modded Gas elemental combo.

If I brought a companion, say my Moa, and utilized a Sentinel weapon and modded for Blast that’s another status proc to consider.

Electricity + Radiation + Impact + Viral + Gas + Blast = 8 potential Status procs.

And the proposed changes to Condition Overload on the first page of this Dev Workshop thread wants to cap the Status Effects the mod will utilize to 3? No thank you. No matter what the final percentile modifier DE plans to implement with their proposed change to Condition Overload, it will be a hard nerf to how the mod will work guaranteed.

Just. Don’t. Cap. The. Status. Effects. For. Condition. Overload.

Simple.

You can mess with the multiplier, but if you cap the status effects you’re going to ruin status melee.

Edited by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23
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1 hour ago, Jukantos said:

Look at it this way: If the new melee LOOKS awesome but is utterly bad at getting rid of enemies (while it has to compete with stuff like Mesa, Saryn, Ignis Wraith, Beam Kitguns) then noone is going to use it. It'll look very cool. And noone is going to use it.

Try using Melee RIGHT NOW in Arbitrations without getting oneshot the second you run into a batch of enemies with a shield drone you didn't take down fast enough. Fun innit? Now imagine doing that without Primed Reach long range melee weapons. Congratulations, now you see why the only way forward is going to be Mesa

finally someone that understands the problem with these changes that are just form over function. I really want to see all the people defending this crap when they get one shotted by a horde of enemies when they are juggling a single enemy. xd

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If condition overload is still exponential you may have a few problems still! @[DE]Bear

 

Edited by Midas
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On 2019-10-18 at 5:19 PM, Shaderox said:

Its a bit funny how that high rated post on the first page advocates the importance of blocking with a street fighter clip.. personally i feel more badass manually blocking dangers than having a system automatically doing it for me.

I take you aren't familiar with the parry system of Street fighter 3rd strike?

Normal blocking in street fighter is done by holding "away" from your opponent (whichever direction would make your character walk backwards.) 100% success rate, the only dangers being chip damage (small incriments of damage that whittle away your health while blocking special attacks) or blocking in the wrong direction ( cant defend from low attacks while standing, can't block air attacks while ducking, etc.)

The street fighter clip they linked was of a "parry." That's when you tap "forward" with super strict timing to completely nullify an attack. You can't just hold forward the same way you'd hold "away" like a standard block since the parry wouldn't trigger and you'd just walk forwards and take full damage. In that clip, the Ken tapped forward for every damaging frame of Chun-li's kicks. (I forget if chip damage kills you in that game but if it does then his choice of parry was a real "all or nothing ordeal since" he didn't have enough health for a regular blocking to save him and missing just one parry would make him lose the round.)

Rapidly tapping forward as quick as you can like some Mario Party minigame doesn't work for parries because of the strict timing window (the game would consider it a missed parry and you'd take full damage.) 

 

Other games have had parry systems, but often put it on "away" so that if you miss the parry, you at least default to a standard block. Since street fighters parry was set to "forward," missing one meant eating all the damage. I fell that its a prime example of skilled blocking.

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So you are deleting the sh*tty lil bit of scaling we had for high level content (no, lvl 40-80 is not high lvl) and leaving useless single blow heavy attacks in its place. Condition Overload nerfed. Blood Rush nerfed. Maiming Strike nerfed. Heavy attacks expend combo counter, so combo counter nerfed.

How the f is melee supposed to deal with high level content when you go on all out scaling deletus? Guess it's soon gonna be time to give my valuables away to clanmates and say goodbye. Haven't played for the last 3 months and not missing it.

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gauss requires some melee, when he cast his 4th, also recast and aerial enhanements, even if there were some play on using the other abilities to unleash some kiblasting shockwaves or ruptures when in 4th mode to manipulate some of the excess energy and pickups such as ember could maybe manipulate metals and guns much easier, but gauss doesnt have anything special happening like extra bullets for his weapons or melee related attacks added to redline.

maybe close range bowfighting can have some blocking and parrying? also gauss using a bow during redline its completely awful, enhancing his reload and fire rate would need to get some new bow attacks or defenses, so allowing the players to block and parry with bow, or using a shock or magic would be good for the cernos, and some of the other pistols to get passive magics.

last thing i want to say about music and loading times for most games, i tried loading destiny 2, i feel like alot of the game is just loading screens, and music, while the presentation is Srank, the enemies are strategic and smart to appear, like some arcade games, while we have some familiar faces, i know that our enemies would require some heavy forces and more robots for cetus, both good and bad like the clonewar, there should be more non-humanoid monsters and allies which can be easily repaired, so the players have warframes but the enemies have always been split  into halves, and robots explode, its somewhat cheesy and seems expensive in some cases because the players just move so quickly to add some heavier units and more guns or traps which make the game more challenging, say a EMP field disabled fire, some planets could have strong magnetic pulls which make the accuracy of guns and abilities less strong or better, and a magnetic wave like vampire mode which clouds or blocks energy so that melee combat and stealth is used.

the water and weather effects should be more apparent for melee 3.0 so its raining heavy and mud splatters on the players screen while they are running, the waving of a katana splatering on the screen, all revelant to the accuracy of the enemy hitting you with a critical hit, the screen blinking or flashing, it doesnt always have to be K.O but downned combat also has it's flaws,

 

we kno we cant use any abilities or gadjets to escape when downed, or grenades, so with this melee enhancement there should be some new options while you are surrounded on the floor by enemies and you have some energy, obviosly not every player will have the fatal conversion mod, so its probably a good time for new passive slot for KO and reviving.

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Most players only played around 30-60 minutes in an endless/arbitrations run (I am one of those players because I see it as a waste of time, inefficient, and boring). Seeing this "nerf" has no effect on us type of players, but makes melee more fun to use than being forced to do slide attacks over and over and over and over again.  

13 minutes ago, Mr.SpookSpook said:

So you are deleting the sh*tty lil bit of scaling we had for high level content (no, lvl 40-80 is not high lvl) and leaving useless single blow heavy attacks in its place. Condition Overload nerfed. Blood Rush nerfed. Maiming Strike nerfed. Heavy attacks expend combo counter, so combo counter nerfed.

How the f is melee supposed to deal with high level content when you go on all out scaling deletus? Guess it's soon gonna be time to give my valuables away to clanmates and say goodbye. Haven't played for the last 3 months and not missing it.

I bet you are one of those filthy memestrike whips/polearm users. Well goodbye, you will not be missed.

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Le 18/10/2019 à 19:58, [DE]Bear a dit :

10. Exalted Weapons
As expected, all melee-based Exalted Weapons will also receive the Phase 2 functionality treatment, gaining access to the combo changes. For those of you who may have missed it, Wukong’s Exalted Iron Staff has already had this functionality implemented (with the exception of the new Heavy Attacks and changes to the Slam Attacks), so if you want a preview of the Combo system, you should check out the Monkey King!

What about non exalted skills being buffed by melee mods & combo counters such as Khora's 1st for example. Will they have some damage increase to compensate the lack of combo damage multiplier ?

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2 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Most players only played around 30-60 minutes in an endless/arbitrations run (I am one of those players because I see it as a waste of time, inefficient, and boring). Seeing this "nerf" has no effect on us type of players, but makes melee more fun to use than being forced to do slide attacks over and over and over and over again.  

I bet you are one of those filthy memestrike whips/polearm users. Well goodbye, you will not be missed.

Also, heavy attacks do 13,6x as much damage compared to normal attacks on the current build, and with a 1.5 combo counter (5 hits) it becomes 20x, how is that not good enough for lvl200-300? 

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Just now, 000l000 said:

What about non exalted skills being buffed by melee mods & combo counters such as Khora's 1st for example. Will they have some damage increase to compensate the lack of combo damage multiplier ?

Will still be affected by the combo multiplier, [DE] Bear said it on the thread.

Edited by HolySeraphin
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il y a 6 minutes, HolySeraphin a dit :

Will still be affected by the combo multiplier, [DE] Bear said it on the thread.

Thanks 🙂

Not sure it'll work fine though since combo counter is now meant to be spent but hey, wait and see.

Edited by 000l000

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Love what you guys are doing!

Please make Quickening and True Punishment good! They are like the melee equivalent of corrupted mods, but have always been overshadowed by their base counterparts.

Edited by PikeOrShield
Grammar

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