Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

[ccjuju]

"Oh boy, I sure hope the melee changes are cool-"

"We're nerfing literally EVERYTHING.  Every single thing.  We're not even just numerically nerfing the mods you use: We're entirely eliminating the way you played the game up to now.  Cleaving through hordes of hundreds of enemies at once at light speed?  Nah, now we're pretending to be Mortal Kombat and you get to do a "heavy attack" to knock one thing up in the air and then "juggle" it over and over.  Fun, right??  So cool and dynamic?  Fighting one thing at a time is so FLUID!  This will be super exciting for all the beginner players who've never touched melee before and don't care about what we're destroying!"

"But I already enjoy killing high level heavy goons and noxes and stuff with the weapons and techniques that are available, in fact it's really fun to-"

"No no no stop, you're not doing it right!  You have to use HEAVY ATTACKS because we needed that for some reason and they're so cool!  Stop sliding around so much and just use a HEAVY ATTACK!"

"Why would I ever want to stop moving just to do some kind of air juggle combo?  You know there's more than one thing on the screen I need to be dealing with right?  Oh well, this will at least work on demolysts, right?  Those guys can be a little tougher-"

"Oh no of course not, they're immune to all this just like all the other forms of CC except the few we forgot.  You just have to hit them over and over, except now all your mods are nerfed so you have to do it about, oh, nine times longer."

"Wow, I'm sold, I DEFINITELY want to keep playing a gameplay style that is now twice as weak and three times as slow, aggravating, and pointless, all because someone thought a slam attack would look cooler in slow motion!"

[GreyEnneract]

2 minutes ago, ccjuju said:

"Oh boy, I sure hope the melee changes are cool-"

"We're nerfing literally EVERYTHING.  Every single thing.  We're not even just numerically nerfing the mods you use: We're entirely eliminating the way you played the game up to now.  Cleaving through hordes of hundreds of enemies at once at light speed?  Nah, now we're pretending to be Mortal Kombat and you get to do a "heavy attack" to knock one thing up in the air and then "juggle" it over and over.  Fun, right??  So cool and dynamic?  Fighting one thing at a time is so FLUID!  This will be super exciting for all the beginner players who've never touched melee before and don't care about what we're destroying!"

"But I already enjoy killing high level heavy goons and noxes and stuff with the weapons and techniques that are available, in fact it's really fun to-"

"No no no stop, you're not doing it right!  You have to use HEAVY ATTACKS because we needed that for some reason and they're so cool!  Stop sliding around so much and just use a HEAVY ATTACK!"

"Why would I ever want to stop moving just to do some kind of air juggle combo?  You know there's more than one thing on the screen I need to be dealing with right?  Oh well, this will at least work on demolysts, right?  Those guys can be a little tougher-"

"Oh no of course not, they're immune to all this just like all the other forms of CC except the few we forgot.  You just have to hit them over and over, except now all your mods are nerfed so you have to do it about, oh, nine times longer."

"Wow, I'm sold, I DEFINITELY want to keep playing a gameplay style that is now twice as weak and three times as slow, aggravating, and pointless, all because someone thought a slam attack would look cooler in slow motion!"

These reactionary posts are why I keep the thread open.
Better than mobile games for work entertainment.

[SnakeBadger]

Another thing worth investigating:

• when equiping mods that give a +60% SLASH
• the weapon doesnt have native slash damage, so the mod seems useless or deemed impractical by much of the standards of tenno chat and it's more obvious when you dont see that equiping TWO "slash%+" that it might benefit from it dealing extra damage or beneficial / additional status effects, hits, or combo (+1)
• please allow mods to give other fun or beneficial effects if they are not going to benefit those weapons or players who use them on incorrect weapons, at least add some redtext or marking if they wont work, if not until new animation, or bonus elements are added, or some benefit.
•   when some statuses proc, due to the elemental mods and severing attacks,
• Last thing i want to say, is that sliding and friction could be randomized when missing attacks or activating abilities according to the planets and tilesets, weapon, and calculations eventful which could cause missing attacks intentionally, should be examined versus landing attacks to activate or use the energy and power ups in the fields, fire AOE, tools, and items to activate, especially true if the platters have already aquire ARCHWING or HEAVY GUNS, to launch or be feeling heavier, or under the influence of the atmospheres to block during bow drawing and dodging added to those primary / secondary guns but receiving partial damage or in turn requiring to redraw or reload, sliding attacks and rolling should speed up or enhance abilities and melee effectively, especially if the player has energy to burn, channel or not
• music changes, and relay focus, we have pvp and some shops across the universe, but no bounties or interest in the syndicate, but the kuva, while you could add some interest for the cetus explorers to mod or augment the KIT weapons, given that you allow for new resources and treasure to be found from melee attacks, mining and fishing across the map, or that you allow the spearmen to upgrade and enhance their throws, at least adding other new enemies, dinosaur bones, and witches to go with the ghoul themes, heavier set enemies who also patrol the plains.
• there are barely any enemies who can take any headshots, so much of the enemy populus dies instead, allow for more ghost and robots artificial A.I which is controlled and can reassemble magnetic, to test in the cephalons, and make the replayable training / rank missions contain replay-treasures and rewards, the players can finish any mission but when they train or partake in cephalon activities the rewards are low or negative pre-rank, practice / suggestions & musical changes, gifts when redoing training can include RIVENS and MODS that are Mastery__BASED or relevant to the players equipments, freelotto cephalon to treat the player to skins and data, emails.
• sometimes players remove all their equipment to level up,
• can the rewards include rivens or other augments for similar equipment, tips & decals?
• this can be anything like glyphs for using practice mode, commendations, and rewards that require players to travel to other relays or planets to unfold like rivens, except untradable or useful to the players like quest items, and ship parts with the coming railjack, not everyone will be in space or enjoying archwing, some get stuck in fortuna and cetus forever most dont leave the orbiter and just repeat relics over and over, so at least if the musical changes come in some random enemies and rewards to patch some planets and missions, the game will seem mroe interesting, and players can then choose to buy on focus.
• the last thing is that the foundry and blueprints can be more randomized in the future players will want to purchase shiny versions and some will be lazy to color or attain coats, palletes, different stats when crafting weapons or mods which can be untradable for a while gained from bounties and rewards, could be a interesting pair of furax which were found covered in grass that heals or comes with extra speed, grass cesti or not they would flicker or be broken, causing damage to the user at times, some reload is painful already but rivens are like that, trade off, boundless ideas to springmelee if enemies were to block more often or dodge attacks, hitting the player far without calling up an explosion, draining their energy instead of just their armor and hp, EMP to stop abilities related to the machinery and amount of enemies with gadgets can make combat more MELEE BASED instead of gun based, so players who are trying to recast abilities would have enhanced melee attacks, or energy channels on their guns.
• that means sometimes meleeing could recover some MP, or bullets, overheating guns and shields cooled and reload faster, and wont jamm as often when the players are hitting, but when they miss they swing faster, or hit crit.

[clxrffdman]

Just wait till it's out then give feedback lul. Like 90% of the numbers aren't even there yet.

[SnakeBadger]

46 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

These reactionary posts are why I keep the thread open.
Better than mobile games for work entertainment.

YES LOL WELL I AGREE. ABOGADO!!! I wanted to bring up the bow's combat because its stagnant and boring, you have two or three options when bowing,

• charged attacks require a blocking mechanic or damage reduction
• reloading and re-stringing / shafting shouln't be mod based or boring 
•  picking up or recovering ammunition, and recovering arrows often is not that fun, or has any benefits.
• So, could be potentially awesome target for this melee update to improve bows and Zaws,since each tileset has lockers and many types of loot particular  used weapons mods are often damaged and the players scan,
•  downed enemies can laytraps or call for help, an explosives, or drop ammo which is useless to a player who is just going to fight with a buster sword or nunchaku.
• drops revalent enhancemetns to melee, resources and pickups, ammo, ayatan should all convert to melee procs and damage types or enhancements, at other times detriments and points, damage, or recovery for shields, without just so the robotic should trigger thsoe pickups to use them or collect them for a multishot, or critical hit, while the player can gain some movement or acrobatic trick/ 
•  aside, the bow and crossbow weapon, gunsword are not their best right now, so you want players to have some additional attacks, or tricks, like other games have a hidden sword or blade with shooting like legolas has a long sword for close range, and melee bowing can just feature knockback electronics, if the player is fully charged versus just tapping, or entering dodge mode,  most bards know to slice or place a poison grenade, or doge timely, blocking against enemies that are too close,  
• slam attacks are still awful, its the sound effect and the lack of recast options when using abilities and different weapons always have that same slam effect/sfx and there are no other types of animations or special AOE without special mods, i suggest charge attacks, and the use of passive traits or tools with each weapon, say fang could be thrown and retrieved with magnetics, the charging of a sonic slide or slam could feature some enhancing elemental or just used to teleport without the "animation lock" but requires energy. 
• there can be husk and other shells when using energy abilities and bullets that can be made interesting, melee will need something simular, we have sound, but what if sound was cancelled or attacks missed, a few animations, weather and planet mechanics might be the only coverup if its muddy or raining its fine, but when you are doing a 10 round fight you gonna get bored if the enemies are just getting killed by your team mates,
• currently enemies will run to the goals predictably  and will die by a headshot or bullet so its boring, sending in faster enemies like packs of dogs and blocking AOE abilities with EMP would force palyers to melee and use their secondary weapons,
• reload exposes players who cant block and is a good place to add a few dodging and energy channel mods for pistols and primary
• reloading features
•  should add energyshields and blocking to players reloading empty weapons with some costs but they get knocked back or poisoned easier, 
• detriments and switching weapons 
• has vulnerabiliteis
• gunblade should be enhanced by ammo types and change rate of fire, or sonic (change sound and damage type effects ) should be difficult or boring to use gunblade should be added to cetus and other weapons daggers, not just semi-automatic versions can be intersting to wield a fire attack or fireball with excess energy they glow or shoot, expand, or humm without requiring a button push, simply switching or using them, or blocking with them can call for special attacks and effects, shields, and magical enhancements,
• bird sound and teleport.
• aerial DPS please fix
• slam sound effects
• low hp determines vigor of attacks and slam noises,
• shields regeneration sound
•  melee in different environments / planets.

[VanFanel1980mx]

On 2019-10-18 at 2:11 PM, Afterburner_X said:

Yeah, changes to Melee. Took some time.

Because some things are not totally finalized, I will wait for the final changes in the update. For example:

Condition Overload - Now stacks at a maximum of 3 Status Effects, however damage is being increased from 60% to a higher percent to balance the change. Final % to come. 

I hope it's a lot of damage at least. ^__^

Can't wait to see what will happen to my Kripath... I will judge when I played the upcoming update.

If the Machete will get extremely powerful with the update, I think someone will be really angry. Imagine not having a Machete after 1000+ logins... ^__^   

Final % will be 65, mark my words.

[HolySeraphin]

1 minute ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Final % will be 65, mark my words.

I'n going to mark it by replying to you, and then keep throwing salt  on the wound once it is released and you're wrong.

[SnakeBadger]

25 minutes ago, clxrffdman said:

Just wait till it's out then give feedback lul. Like 90% of the numbers aren't even there yet.

i gotta hear your ideas for improving melee, and acrobatics.

[WAAAGHFRAME]

I'm still saying if heavy attacks, combo meter, and mods like blood rush are not balanced, things will be bad.  And who really thinks a heavy attack will make up for losing... uh.... a couple hundred percent crit chance?

 

Why couldn't only the stance combo changes and the heavy attacks be melee 3.0 (and sure, combat dodges sound fine)?  Why are you risking this big combo multiplier change?

 

I'm sorry, at this point I just have no faith that you guys have an understanding of the massive multipliers that are working with combo meter and mods like blood rush, let alone the change to condition overload.  Unless you're looking at a 200+% constant crit bonus from blood rush, at least, your base melee weapon bonus (three or four times?) is going to lose out in the long run.  If you buff crit stats and crit bonuses on most weapons, you're still going to lose out on some of them.  Sigh, maybe I've misunderstood what you're doing to combo, but it really seems you are absolutely gutting the core of melee and passing it off as a buff, whether it is blood rush, maiming strike, or condition overload.

 

This seems like a "rebalance" so why don't you just say that?  Oh yeah, cause that rebalance will be a massive nerf.  Right.

Sigh, once again, this is only a prediction, I'd be happy to be surprised.

[Kalvorax]

On 2019-10-18 at 10:58 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Reflex Coil - Increased Combo Point Efficiency when using Heavy Attacks.

 

Will the current { spoiler } variant be moved to Naramon (as it should have been since release......) since it is PURELY melee only and Naramon IS the melee school? I never understood why it was under Zenurik at all (woo energy efficiency on MELEE only, instead of WARFRAME energy efficiency *I like to run blind rage on some of my builds and it would make FAR more sense, ESPECIALLY since there is a 175% cap on it anyways*), in particular due to it effectively being a free reflex coil.

[topbanana777]

Greetings,close-combat tenno.(x)

Die, lizard! Leech! Bloody worm!(o)

[Sasuda]

On 2019-10-18 at 11:58 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Weeping Wounds - Increases Status chance in a Stacking Multiplier, increased to 60% at max level.

Oof this mod will be garbage now 60% is max and it requires a condition to have it? Just use Dual stats, 60% element and 60 status, no conditions required and waaaaaay easier to obtain.
The good thing about it in it's current form it's an alternative and makes a totally non-status weapon status viable, it already has the loss of just not being a direct damage enhancement.

On 2019-10-18 at 11:58 AM, [DE]Bear said:

• Blood Rush - Will now scale differently, using a stacking multiplier based on the Combo Counter, raising (X)% per Combo Counter tier (something much easier to achieve in Phase 2). We will provide the final % pending more testing. 

Really unclear what this could be but, as long as it operates in a way that scales continually and acknowledges the change of losing combo to heavy hits.

On 2019-10-18 at 11:58 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Maiming Strike - Changes from an additive buff to a stacking buff, but base functionality increased to a Significant % of the old version to balance the change. Final % to come soon.

Similar to Weeping Wounds, additive crit buff is really nice because weapons with like 5% crit chance can actually make some use out of critical attacks. This is really one of the best types of mods (it had some flaws yes), an alternative path to achieving critical attack damage through a specific movement. Similar mods for aerials or slams would be great. Making it a stacking buff means more or less its either good enough to replace or be added to the others, or it's not worth anything. 

On 2019-10-18 at 11:58 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Condition Overload - Now stacks at a maximum of 3 Status Effects, however damage is being increased from 60% to a higher percent to balance the change. Final % to come. 

Why limit the max to 3? Makes a lot of status setups on Primary and Secondaries for this not really worth it. The whole changing weapons in order to maximize damage is kinda being removed for no reason here.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Exodia brave:

On Heavy attacks regenerate energy?

[DroopingPuppy]

So, where is my quick melee? That's the reason why I was abandon melee weapons and only fight with primary and secondary weapons for a half of a year.

[Xnidior]

Since the Combo Multiplier will apply to Heavy Attacks only, ......

Blood Rush - Will now scale differently, using a stacking multiplier based on the Combo Counter, raising (X)% per Combo Counter tier (something much easier to achieve in Phase 2). We will provide the final % pending more testing. 

Condition Overload - Now stacks at a maximum of 3 Status Effects

Weeping Wounds - Increases Status chance in a Stacking Multiplier, increased to 60% at max level

 

[Xolgys]

i would really love to see the melee weapon balance changes and riven changes, finally.

its not like a totally trivial matter so posting them up ahead of the actual update wouldnt really hurt. that would allow feedback because these are huge changes so giving us the chance to state our opinion prior might be a good idea in terms of balance.

some people will complain either way, be it afterwards or prior so that shouldnt be an argument to not post them alraedy.

[Mabc05]

il y a 8 minutes, GreyEnneract a dit :

This is incoherent.
I thought this specific forum was English only?

Are you  racist?

[-Kritias-]

5. Combo Counter Rework
The Combo Counter will be getting a new functionality pass. Rather than just providing flat bonuses to damage, the Combo Counter will now also act as an expendable resource for new heavy hitting combat: HEAVY ATTACKS!

 

So for my understanding, if we don´t spend our combo counter on heavy attacks the damage bonus from stacking is still avaiable for our normal melee?

[Graavarg]

This really seems like an informed improvement to everything melee. That of course includes changing and even removing some of the "exploits" in the current system, which some will see as "nerfs". A lot of meta-builds and setups will have to change, and a lot of new tricks will have to be learned. The Warframe community excels at this, so all those interested in builds, setups, tricks and stuff can look forward to a really interesting few months.

The other thing that has been creeping into Warframe (besides the infamous power creep) is the continuous griping. Sure, it is both part of the human condition and a global phenomenon, this trying to elevate oneself by being critical of everything, as if criticizing stuff somehow would prove the existence of knowledge and insight (a hint: it usually proves the exact opposite).

Based on this, my expectation was that these changes would generate a total sh*tstorm of negativity, centered around the "me, me, me, it's all about me"- and "I gripe on forums, therefore I exist"-concepts. Instead the reaction has been quite different, and from my heart I salute all Tennos coming out from the woodwork in support of a very needed change, of the game they love and of DE, the caretaker of Warframe.

[(NSW)zook-pl]

BTW what about Synoid Heliocor and similar weapons?

[Sohaya-]

18 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

This really seems like an informed improvement to everything melee. That of course includes changing and even removing some of the "exploits" in the current system, which some will see as "nerfs". A lot of meta-builds and setups will have to change, and a lot of new tricks will have to be learned. The Warframe community excels at this, so all those interested in builds, setups, tricks and stuff can look forward to a really interesting few months

It's an improvement to fluidity for sure. Not sure how an ingame item (do you mean maiming strike?) is an exploit though.

And even so I don't expect the meta builds to change much in the future. There are more modding avenues for sure, but I don't think that they'll end up changing meta builds that much (with the exception of maiming strike dying on the scoliac - I saw that from a mile away). Condition overload is still substantial damage for status builds; blood rush is still a huge crit boost. Maybe killing blow? I won't know until the math on everything is done and dusted, but yeah, there's my prediction.

On the subject of condition overload, the cap with the current math was a fine compromise , since it still requires a level of buildup which justifies increased power a little; if youre going to make it additive to pressure point, at the very least remove the cap or increase it to 5 or so.

[Sohaya-]

8 minutes ago, (NSW)zook-pl said:

BTW what about Synoid Heliocor and similar weapons?

I think a whole swarm of heavy-attack spawned specters that still do jack diddly squat is what you can expect. If channeling and charged attacks are going to be replaced with heavy attacks, then it won't make sense to leave weapons out as well.

[Sohaya-]

29 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

Based on this, my expectation was that these changes would generate a total sh*tstorm of negativity, centered around the "me, me, me, it's all about me"- and "I gripe on forums, therefore I exist"-concepts. Instead the reaction has been quite different, and from my heart I salute all Tennos coming out from the woodwork in support of a very needed change, of the game they love and of DE, the caretaker of Warframe.

I think that the fluidity of stances has been such a huge issue in the past years that nearly nobody is going to complain now, especially with quick melee gone.

That said the negativity is mostly centred around condition overload now, and I'm hoping that it doesn't get nerfed into the ground with calculation changes as well.

[GreyEnneract]

35 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

This really seems like an informed improvement to everything melee. That of course includes changing and even removing some of the "exploits" in the current system, which some will see as "nerfs". A lot of meta-builds and setups will have to change, and a lot of new tricks will have to be learned. The Warframe community excels at this, so all those interested in builds, setups, tricks and stuff can look forward to a really interesting few months.

The other thing that has been creeping into Warframe (besides the infamous power creep) is the continuous griping. Sure, it is both part of the human condition and a global phenomenon, this trying to elevate oneself by being critical of everything, as if criticizing stuff somehow would prove the existence of knowledge and insight (a hint: it usually proves the exact opposite).

Based on this, my expectation was that these changes would generate a total sh*tstorm of negativity, centered around the "me, me, me, it's all about me"- and "I gripe on forums, therefore I exist"-concepts. Instead the reaction has been quite different, and from my heart I salute all Tennos coming out from the woodwork in support of a very needed change, of the game they love and of DE, the caretaker of Warframe.

It's truly interesting.
This is why they put emphasis on players testing the changes themselves first.

[RielZero]

All in all it looks awesome (It should have been like this from the start), but its kinda sad to see the scaling of melee go and I don't think an overall damage buff will be enough to close that gaping hole. (not that this buff wasn't needed anyway)

So I would suggest keeping the combo counter damage buff as is for normal melee attacks and implement a heavy attack charge, for example every 50 melee counter you get a charge and can use all charges for a stronger melee attack, thas would have been how I would implement it.

But I am eager to test the new system (and being blown away from it)

I am starved for the real melee rework!