Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

[Loza03]

5 hours ago, WAAAGHFRAME said:

I'm still saying if heavy attacks, combo meter, and mods like blood rush are not balanced, things will be bad.  And who really thinks a heavy attack will make up for losing... uh.... a couple hundred percent crit chance?

Because, in part, this is a nerf of that.

Bear in mind, Warframe is not (and this has been reiterated multiple times) designed for endurance runs or level 300 enemies or whatnot. Which means that the kind of scaling damage available was being 'designed' for at most level 100, something it was hilariously more powerful than.

So, the Scaling was nerfed, and the base performance brought up to compensate. Producing something a lot closer to the experience that all the other weapons have. And honestly, so much the better. I was tired of hitting enemies over level 30 with sticks a few times before my sword actually started to do damage.

[HolySeraphin]

4 hours ago, Sasuda said:

Oof this mod will be garbage now 60% is max and it requires a condition to have it? Just use Dual stats, 60% element and 60 status, no conditions required and waaaaaay easier to obtain.
The good thing about it in it's current form it's an alternative and makes a totally non-status weapon status viable, it already has the loss of just not being a direct damage enhancement.

Really unclear what this could be but, as long as it operates in a way that scales continually and acknowledges the change of losing combo to heavy hits.

Similar Weeping Wounds, additive crit buff is really nice because weapons with like 5% crit chance can actually make some use out of critical attacks. This is really one of the best types of mods (it had some flaws yes), an alternative path to achieving critical attack damage through a specific movement. Similar mods for aerials or slams would be great. Making it a stacking buff means more or less its either good enough to replace or be added to the others, or it's not worth anything. 

Why limit the max to 3? Makes a lot of status setups on Primary and Secondaries for this not really worth it. The whole changing weapons in order to maximize damage is kinda being removed for no reason here.

Actually, if I understood it right the're buffing Weeping Wounds. Currently it stacks and gets 45% bonus status chance for each stack. Now it will get 60% status chance per stack at max level. What they meant is that the mod, at max rank, will give you 60% for each stack.

Maiming Strike is too OP for weapons with low crit chance. It is one of the few mods that stacks additively and 90% turns every weapon into a crit one, but it restricts you to one of the most boring gameplays EVER; sliding and spinning nonstop. I saw this nerf comming years ago.

I will wait for the numbers on Condition Overload, but I think it scales too much when you use it with a Primary or secondary to get 9+ status, or +540% damage. It is OP because it is calculated over your final damage, instead of the base damage like Pressure Point. You're essentially getting a 10x primed banned mod in just 2-3 attacks, or a 5.4+ crit multipplier, which combined with the effects of the procs themselves, makes it something like the Tigris Prime: high damage and many procs.

[Xolgys]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb HolySeraphin:

I will wait the numbers on Condition Overload, but I think it scales too much when you use it with a Primary or secondary to get 9+ status, or +540% damage. It is OP because it is calculated over your final damage, instead of the base damage like Pressure Point. You're essentially getting a 10x primed banned mod in just 2-3 attacks, or a 5.4+ crit multipplier, but a guaranteed crit, which combined with the effects of the procs themselves, makes it something like the Tigris Prime: high damage and many procs.

its not 540%, its 9x 60% on top of the already modified amount so it scales within itself, which is stronger even than what u describe.

1000 dmg -> 1600 and the 2nd instance does +60% on top of 1600 and so on.

buffing the % per instance and reducing max amount of stacks basically means a nerf for specific setups but a buff to regular, stand alone melee usage since most weapons cant reliably apply more than 5-6 proccs, especially before an enemy dies. also considering that every weapons base dmg will be increased its not really a huge deal. ppl who love seeing big yet pointless numbers will see a nerf and complain anyway, but in the end an enemy is dead. if a player had 200k dmg too much or 150k dmg more than required to actually kill wont matter in the end.

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, Xydeth said:

its not 540%, its 60% on top of the already modified amount so it scales within itself, which is stronger even than what u describe.

buffind the % per instance and reducing max amount of stacks basically means a nerf for specific setups but a buff to regular, stand alone melee usage since most weapons cant reliably apply more than 5-6 proccs, especially before an enemy dies. also considering that every weapons base dmg will be increased its not really a huge deal. ppl who love seeing big yet pointless numbers will see a nerf and complain anyway, but in the end an enemy is dead. if a player had 200k dmg too much or 150k dmg more than required to actually kill wont matter in the end.

Well, you're right. The damage calculation for CO is:

Total Damage = Modded Damage × 1.6ⁿ (with n being the number of unique status procs currently affecting the enemy).

So lets say 1,000 damage with 9 procs:

9 procs = 1,000x 1.6 x 1.6 x 1.6...=  68,719 damage. (IT IS busted) 

For just 6 procs = 16,777 damage (still a lot)

Look at how much you get with Primed Bane of Grineer (which, to be honest, is quite strong): 1000 x 1.55 = 1,550.

You know, you're right. I forgot about the weapon buff, which seems to be 3,4x. So even if they increase it just to 90% it is still a lot. Example:

3400 x 1.9 x 1.9 x 1.9 = 23,320 damage.

But still, it is a big difference, 1/3 of the current build. I don't know for how far endurance players will get with this hypothetical change, but I think that Warframe wasn't meant for 2+hours missions, which these changes suggests. But for the challenger seeker I hope they add harder missions soon, maybe after New War.

[HolySeraphin]

Wait a second, in my example with 3 stacks of +90% each the damage is higher than the current build with 6 procs...oh no. Let's test with +75% (which is probably the worst case scenario):

3400 total damage before CO (because of the weapon buff). 3 procs with +75% each.

Final damage = 3400x 1.75 x 1.75 x 1.75 = 18,221.

Not THAT big of a difference compared to +90%. It still outperforms the current CO with 6 stacks, and is 11.7x stronger than primed bane mods.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

9 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

Wait a second, in my example with 3 stacks of +90% each the damage is higher than the current build with 6 procs...oh no. Let's test with +75% (which is probably the worst case scenario):

1000 total damage before CO. 3 procs with +75% each.

Final damage = 1000 x 1.75 x 1.75 x 1.75 = 5,359.

Huge nerf, but is still big for just 1 mod, because it would be 3.4x stronger than a weapon with primed bane/expel mods.

Quick maths

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Quick maths

I forgot the weapon buff, I edited the comment.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

I want this update so bad right now

[ccjuju]

3 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Based on this, my expectation was that these changes would generate a total sh*tstorm of negativity, centered around the "me, me, me, it's all about me"- and "I gripe on forums, therefore I exist"-concepts. Instead the reaction has been quite different, and from my heart I salute all Tennos coming out from the woodwork in support of a very needed change, of the game they love and of DE, the caretaker of Warframe.

I've noticed that most of the comments in support of these changes seem to be coming from people who can't give specific explanations for why they might be good or what they think they'll concretely add to the melee gameplay being meaninglessly repeating the phrase "it's more fluid" they're selling it with.  It just seems to be general display of support in the classic sort of "they're making the changes so they can't be bad by definition, anyone who disagrees is wrong" way.  And of course words like "love" are thrown in so as to characterize anyone who supports the changes as having "love", with the implication being that anyone who dislikes them must naturally only have hate.

In contrast, many of the people criticizing the changes are giving exact specific reasons either why they disrupt current gameplay styles or why the numeric differences are unwanted hard nerfs that railroad people into playing a certain way by default.  And all of these criticisms are in turn criticized and dismissed as being "griping" or "me, me, me", to the applause of fellow virtue-demonstrating supporters, as if being concerned about one's own enjoyment of the game, and the destruction of the modes that offer that enjoyment, is somehow not permissible and the only thing we're allowed to do is just shut up and accept everything without comment.  Either everyone is a "memeing strike" user and it's ok to not care what they think because "griping", or everyone is a covert lethality user and it's ok to not care what they think because "griping", and so on.  For the record, I use neither of those, but that shouldn't be a necessary qualification for someone to be allowed to state their arguments.  It doesn't help anything when the counterpoint to any criticism is "hey, that guy's griping, so I'm glad his favorite thing is being nerfed! Please clap!"

I really question what the people behind these changes think "fluid" means, and how these new techniques they've demonstrated in images and videos are supposed to improve "fluidity" at the cost of explicitly removing numerous existing techniques.  I've already stated why I think "heavy attacks" and air juggling look ridiculous, but it's more than just the physical impediment they add to game flow.  It's a reduction in player agency.  Now we go from the player constantly choosing when and wear to execute attacks and what relative position to hold in relation to the enemies on a constant, millisecond-level basis, to a more constrained "look, you've lifted heavy enemy X, now juggle him! You pretty much have to because we've removed the validity in doing anything else".  The naturalness, or fluidity, is being disrupted to become more of a systemized, "get enemy in X state and then execute Y" pattern.  Usage of in-game physics and character momentum is lost in favor of hardcoded lift states.  Melee in its current state is already extremely fluid.  Having to save up limited uses charges to expend on basic enemies that can no longer be defeated by the players' current ability to weave generous levels of mobility into an attack pattern via mod and stance setup is not fluid.  It's the opposite of fluid.  It's so far from fluid, dwarves are calling up asking if they can make an anvil out of it.

[Caliboom]

I wish I could see the new stats for the melee weapons, would be much appreciated!

[RavingRoman]

I have another concern for the ground slam. Everyone basically has a Rhino stomp. Will there be a replacement for Rhino's 4th ability if it is something that everyone has as a regular maneuver? 

[bibmobello]

10 minutes ago, RavingRoman said:

I have another concern for the ground slam. Everyone basically has a Rhino stomp. Will there be a replacement for Rhino's 4th ability if it is something that everyone has as a regular maneuver? 

You can even use the arcane to heal, should inaros get a replacement to his skill? I can use vazarin to nurse people, should oberon have a replacement for his skills? and so on...

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, ccjuju said:

I've noticed that most of the comments in support of these changes seem to be coming from people who can't give specific explanations for why they might be good or what they think they'll concretely add to the melee gameplay being meaninglessly repeating the phrase "it's more fluid" they're selling it with.  It just seems to be general display of support in the classic sort of "they're making the changes so they can't be bad by definition, anyone who disagrees is wrong" way.  And of course words like "love" are thrown in so as to characterize anyone who supports the changes as having "love", with the implication being that anyone who dislikes them must naturally only have hate.

In contrast, many of the people criticizing the changes are giving exact specific reasons either why they disrupt current gameplay styles or why the numeric differences are unwanted hard nerfs that railroad people into playing a certain way by default.  And all of these criticisms are in turn criticized and dismissed as being "griping" or "me, me, me", to the applause of fellow virtue-demonstrating supporters, as if being concerned about one's own enjoyment of the game, and the destruction of the modes that offer that enjoyment, is somehow not permissible and the only thing we're allowed to do is just shut up and accept everything without comment.  Either everyone is a "memeing strike" user and it's ok to not care what they think because "griping", or everyone is a covert lethality user and it's ok to not care what they think because "griping", and so on.  For the record, I use neither of those, but that shouldn't be a necessary qualification for someone to be allowed to state their arguments.  It doesn't help anything when the counterpoint to any criticism is "hey, that guy's griping, so I'm glad his favorite thing is being nerfed! Please clap!"

I really question what the people behind these changes think "fluid" means, and how these new techniques they've demonstrated in images and videos are supposed to improve "fluidity" at the cost of explicitly removing numerous existing techniques.  I've already stated why I think "heavy attacks" and air juggling look ridiculous, but it's more than just the physical impediment they add to game flow.  It's a reduction in player agency.  Now we go from the player constantly choosing when and wear to execute attacks and what relative position to hold in relation to the enemies on a constant, millisecond-level basis, to a more constrained "look, you've lifted heavy enemy X, now juggle him! You pretty much have to because we've removed the validity in doing anything else".  The naturalness, or fluidity, is being disrupted to become more of a systemized, "get enemy in X state and then execute Y" pattern.  Usage of in-game physics and character momentum is lost in favor of hardcoded lift states.  Melee in its current state is already extremely fluid.  Having to save up limited uses charges to expend on basic enemies that can no longer be defeated by the players' current ability to weave generous levels of mobility into an attack pattern via mod and stance setup is not fluid.  It's the opposite of fluid.  It's so far from fluid, dwarves are calling up asking if they can make an anvil out of it.

I made calculations or topics for 3 of the main "gripes", which include Combo counter, Condition Overload and explained why Maiming Strike and CO deserved a nerf. Just because people use busted mods don't mean they should exist in the first place. As seen in one of my previous comments, CO with 9 procs turns 1000 damage into 68K+, that's broken as hell. And Maiming Strike adding a flat amount is the exception of the exception, and is one of the most boring playstyles in the game, not mentioning how it is OP.

As for combo counter, it is the same thing up to 3.5x, and heavy strikes do 13.5x damage compared to normal attacks of the current build.

[Xolgys]

vor einer Stunde schrieb HolySeraphin:

Well, you're right. The damage calculation for CO is:

Total Damage = Modded Damage × 1.6ⁿ (with n being the number of unique status procs currently affecting the enemy).

So lets say 1,000 damage with 9 procs:

9 procs = 1,000x 1.6 x 1.6 x 1.6...=  68,719 damage. (IT IS busted) 

For just 6 procs = 16,777 damage (still a lot)

Look at how much you get with Primed Bane of Grineer (which, to be honest, is quite strong): 1000 x 1.55 = 1,550.

You know, you're right. I forgot about the weapon buff, which seems to be 3,4x. So even if they increase it just to 90% it is still a lot. Example:

3400 x 1.9 x 1.9 x 1.9 = 23,320 damage.

But still, it is a big difference, 1/3 of the current build. I don't know for how far endurance players will get with this hypothetical change, but I think that Warframe wasn't meant for 2+hours missions, which these changes suggests. But for the challenger seeker I hope they add harder missions soon, maybe after New War.

yep, and thats why i say its generally prolly a buff for general usability and only few players will really notice a difference so i dont see a reason to call it a nerf for the general player base. some people might complain and that might be the base of endurance runners, but thats a nieche group so pardon me for saying that but basing balance on that tiny fraction at the cost of the average players experience would be a questionable decision anyway.

 this is an old topic but yes, we need some more challenge. lets hope liches wont be too easy.

[bibmobello]

3 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

I made calculations or topics for 3 of the main "gripes", which include Combo counter, Condition Overload and explained why Maiming Strike and CO deserved a nerf. Just because people use busted mods don't mean they should exist in the first place. As seen in one of my previous comments, CO with 9 procs turns 1000 damage into 68K+, that's broken as hell. And Maiming Strike adding a flat amount is the exception of the exception, and is one of the most boring playstyles in the game, not mentioning how it is OP.

As for combo counter, it is the same thing up to 3.5x, and heavy strikes do 13.5x damage compared to normal attacks of the current build.

But you will still see people spamming maiming strike on every mission because it fast, have great range and this "rebalance" will not change almost anything on star chart missions. A cool down or consuming the combo counter to use maiming strike was a better approach.

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, bibmobello said:

But you will still see people spamming maiming strike on every mission.

Because they want to clear things as fast as possible, and the mod allows 5% crit weapons to have 95%, which doesn't match how most mods work.

[bibmobello]

1 minute ago, HolySeraphin said:

Because they want to clear things as fast as possible, and the mod allows 5% crit weapons to have 95%, which doesn't match how most mods work.

No because it's fun to destroy everything easily but it's more fun when people kill 100 enemies and you kill only 1 and you get 99% damage.

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, bibmobello said:

No because it's fun to destroy everything easily but it's more fun when people kill 100 enemies and you kill only 1 and you get 99% damage.

I disagree

[RavingRoman]

14 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

You can even use the arcane to heal, should inaros get a replacement to his skill? I can use vazarin to nurse people, should oberon have a replacement for his skills? and so on...

We're talking about 4th ability. The supposed ultimate? 

Name one ultimate of any frame that is universal to every other frame in every situation?

And that is done by an arcane. This is a FUNDAMENTAL action with nothing required to be equipped. So I see your point to be wrong here.

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, bibmobello said:

But you will still see people spamming maiming strike on every mission because it fast, have great range and this "rebalance" will not change almost anything on star chart missions. A cool down or consuming the combo counter to use maiming strike was a better approach.

From what I understood Maiming Strike will have stacks, instead of being additive, which is more like other mods, so it will get more reasonable on Starchart, especially if it works like Berserker (there's a cap). A cool down would be too much of a nerf, and consuming the combo counter would make it worse than just using the combo counter, which is 4x stronger than the new attacks, so it basically is a 4x multipplier,

[bibmobello]

2 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

From what I understood Maiming Strike will have stacks, instead of being additive, which is more like other mods, so it will get more reasonable on Starchart, especially if it works like Berserker (there's a cap). A cool down would be too much of a nerf, and consuming the combo counter would make it worse than just using the combo counter, which is 4x stronger than the new attacks, so it basically is a 4x multipplier,

Consuming not all the combo counter, only a part of it. Considering actually maiming strike attacks deal insane amount of damage compared to normal attacks even with stance bonuses, they have to be considered special attacks as well.

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, RavingRoman said:

We're talking about 4th ability. The supposed ultimate? 

Name one ultimate of any frame that is universal to every other frame in every situation?

And that is done by an arcane. This is a FUNDAMENTAL action with nothing required to be equipped. So I see your point to be wrong here.

Rhino's Stomp has larger range.

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, bibmobello said:

Consuming not all the combo counter, only a part of it. Considering actually maiming strike attacks deal insane amount of damage compared to normal attacks even with stance bonuses, they have to be considered special attacks as well.

The slide attack is not a special attack, it is the mod that makes it "special". Property-wise slide attacks don't have any spectacular bonuses. And the mod SHOULDN'T give insane amounts of damage with such little effort, it doesn't even scale, you get its full potential on the first hit, even BloodRush has to stack (and it will also be reworked, mind you).

Heavy strikes do 4x damage by default, and wil be affected by combo counter, these are special attacks, even more because the heavy slams will have a special property: the "juggle status"

[RavingRoman]

4 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

Rhino's Stomp has larger ranger.

And costs a lot more energy to spam. Ground slam: Far more efficient, spammable, and requires high velocity movement to perform; making it difficult to hit when executing. 

I still need an answer to my question. What warframe ability can be duplicated with all frames without equipping anything?

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, RavingRoman said:

And costs a lot more energy to spam. Ground slam: Far more efficient, spammable, and requires high velocity movement to perform; making it difficult to hit when executing. 

I still need an answer to my question. What warframe ability can be duplicated with all frames without equipping anything?

Not exactly more efficient,

Rhino's Stomp has 25m range BASE, does 800 damage and lasts 8 seconds by default.

Ground slams with the lifted status have like 3-5m and use the combo counter. Also,using heavy slams without combo counter gives diminished results and almost no duration on lifted status. 

You can't use ground slams to stun a large group of enemies, because you will still get shot, unlike Rhino's.