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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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1 minute ago, LasarraSelendis said:

 You guys meant "provide" and not "proved" here, right?

Yep! Thanks for the correction!

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Just now, Loza03 said:

Simple: You aren't supposed to.

DE have very clearly never designed around above level 100 enemies. Arguably they've not even designed to level 100, but that's another matter.

I do not agree with the nerf to condition overload. Now you won't need to have a status weapon to pair it with your melee so that will make weapons like the cyanex to be utterly useless. xd

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My goodness the complaints. XD As a heavy Valkyr player I'm glad to see something is being done with the polearm meta. My goodness I was looking at my zaw polearms in disgust, haven't even touched the lesion in like a year. I was getting so bored with. I rarely equip a whip anymore and try a bunch of other different melee types just so I don't fall asleep while playing. I want to see the final percentages before I pass full judgement. The fact that the kiddies are already screaming about their precious polearms should tell you something though. Melee is a big part of this game so I'm looking forward to the changes with cautious eyes. Every weapon type in this game whether it be melee, primary, or secondary shouldn't have worthless weapons that have no value other than MR in their ranks, just like Warframes. I look forward to the Ember and Vauban changes, knowing that maybe some other warframes will be next *cough cough* Mag. *cough cough* I'm glad this is FINALLY getting here. Can't wait to see what comes after, good job so far you've actually got a very bored MR27 hyped (I mean as much as I'll allow myself to be).

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1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

 

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Image result for now I'm motivated

 

I'm a little disappointed that the "bullet jump attack" they once announced was apparently removed, I had high hopes for it to be a lifting juggle-starter similar to the way Void Dash ragdolls, but I can still already start to imagine the combo possibilities.

I have to say overall I'm extremely excited to see a lot of the stuff long-ago discussed for melee 3.0 is actually here (blocking to build counter with 100% DR, 'spending' combo counter on melee attacks), after 2.9's hyper-focus on streamlining and fluidity I didn't expect it. Truly a pleasant surprise.

I do sort of wonder, whatever happened to "impact procs are going to juggle enemies"? It seems like some of the more integrated juggle mechanics that were planned have been folded into this one Lifted Status, and I'm worried that will be too limited in availability to really open it up.

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Need to test out the system. Looks fluid and fun, but I wonder how it's going to perform.

DE, what was the "combo counter damage bonus" equivalent you were considering with regards to base weapon buffs? 2.5x? 4.5x (Easily obtained in Arbitrations)? That's a key question for understanding your train of thought with regards to scaling. Melee (Condition overload with 5+ status) is the only way to deal with extremely high armor and HP.

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The changes to melee are just amazing, cant wait to try it.
As you do change the arsenal, please take a look at the way the animals (cats, dogs) are switched, as right now to it takes a lot of stupid clicks just to switch between, for example, any adarza and smeeta kavat.

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You know, DE, making those changes to Blood Rush and Maiming Strike years ago could have cause a lot less frustration among the playerbase and fanned out the weapon usage of a large number of players. Did you wait with devaluing those mods until the plat trade price for them had dropped below a certain point? Cause that's the only reason I can think why such a tiny change took you so long to implement. Either way, nerf to aoe weapons is a good thing regardless of how long it took.

 

Oh, and don't forget, please:

PLEASE ALSO CHANGE SLIDE ON CRIT MODIFIERS ON RIVENS

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I feel that blocking is not a balanced stats across melee weapons. It just favors weapons with better blocking without counter balance to weapon with less blocking.

How about this? Melee with lower blocking like dagger will gain increased movement speed / dodge to compensate their lower blocking capability.

Basically better blocking = slower movement/dodge, worse blocking = faster movement/dodge 

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33 minutes ago, Afterburner_X said:

 

If the Machete will get extremely powerful with the update, I think someone will be really angry. Imagine not having a machete after 1000+ logins... ^__^   

im day 804 and i still dont have it

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Quote
  • Air Combo (Melee while Jumping) - Perform a combo in the air without sacrificing movement.
  • Hover Air Combo (Back + Melee while Jumping) - Holds the player in place while the combo completes, and overrides the slam attack angle to keep the action going!

 YES! I can breathe easier now. Was worried this wasn't part of the update when it wasn't showcased or spoken of in the Devstream.

But here it is, and I can be happier about my tendency to Jump.

 

Wasn't sure if it was addressed fully, will taking damage while midair w/ melee still force an Aimglide, because autoblocking?

 

Also really glad Range and Base-stats are being looked at. Really wanted to use the Furax for a long time now, but they had so little range they sometimes couldn't even hit enemies I was bumping into, and didn't do enough damage to compensate.

It'd be awesome to see a bit of a dynamic emerge there, with Range and Damage being somewhat inversely Proportional.

"I can either hit 5 enemies for 50 damage, or 1 enemy for 250 damage"

 

Liking what I'm seeing with how the Mods are being updated, True Punishment stands out as something that'll probably be a great way to dictate playstyle.

Could do to see a Taunt mechanic re-introduced, if Guardian Derision isn't keeping the one it has. But I don't even care if it's in the form of a mod or not.

Glad to see the Rage+life-strike feedback loop not being a cheap way to increase survivability on any frame.

 

So overall, seems like just what Warframe needed. Thank you!

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I love these changes. I am very excited to try them out! 

I do have one major gripe with all this though. Why even bother calling it a "Combo counter" at this point? What sort of 90's arcade dingleberry is a "combo counter" in a game like this anyway? Who's doing the counting? Me? My Warframe? Is there a hidden scoreboard out there somewhere I should know about? Sorry if I'm coming off as too snarky, I've been watching a lot of British television lately, but really.  Just give it a cool Warframe-y resource name "Filtered void energy generation" and call it "F-Veg" or something.

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I love all this changes, nerf and buffs, I see the goal, balancing, for a engaging and more immersive combat.
The tactical dodging especially, I see this as a very important little brick for immersive combat against more important ennemy like the kuva leeches, and it's a very appreciated approach to get away from "one-shot everything you see". It's like a little Dark souls vibe..

I also noticed that you have not hesitate to facilitate armor striping in recent warframe abilities..
Gauss, Vauban's rework, fire proc rework..
And I see this as another little brick of a larger project of balancing °-°
This is why I made Arann a specialist at armor stripping.
Who is Arann ?
Him °-°

 

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1 hour ago, [DE]Bear said:

Heavy attacks can now occur at any time, simply by pressing the Alt-fire button while you have melee equipped or in your hand. This costs all of your Combo Counter

This seems wrong.  Some of us like building combo and using crits.  Taking some of the combo counter makes sense, but taking ALL the combo counter completely resets your build-up, and turns it into a total either-or kind of thing.  If you want to build combo, you can never heavy attack, and if you heavy attack, you may as well not really build combo anymore.  Especially with the mods you've tied to heavy attacks, 

Take a look at the prevalence of combo duration mods and think about what that means.  People want to keep their combo counter.  The heavy attack system basically competes with this mod type, rendering it fairly useless unless someone avoids heavy attacks.

I think a better compromise could have been found than "heavy attacks wipe the combo counter".  Regardless of how that works, one-attack combo wiping will be less fun than it could be, and remove things your melee-favoring players could be playing with.

Also, alt-fire attacks are always annoying for controller players.  I know you never even think about testing controller play and seem unwilling to give us better tools (eg, ability menu key could let us map dpad to more keys), but I hope you at least won't add to the nuisance by forgetting to implement it or something, like how the channeling change just left controller players with broken controls for a while.

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Ugh, i was gonna write this whole paragraph on how most of the stuff i read about is a bad idea, how you could do the good changes in animations and stuff, and do it without the need of nerfs, on how people just gonna steer away from melee cuz now they gonna lack the damage/range and just gonna grab the biggest AoE gun they can. 

But i think this is it, i dont care anymore....

Good luck on your future endeavours DE

Edited by Caramello
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Just now, CodeUltimate said:

I do not agree with the nerf to condition overload. Now you won't need to have a status weapon to pair it with your melee so that will make weapons like the cyanex to be utterly useless. xd

I'm sorry? Cyanex rocks on its own!

Sure it's not very good at single-target bursting but it does deal with groups very efficiently. And, well... that IS what we face usually. Bigger foes can be melee bursted down, usually, especially since they'll catch some corrosive procs in the crossfire.

 

That aside, it is a bit sad that one of the cooler weapon combos/loadout shenaniganry is going away (prior to Redeemer Prime I simulated the same effect with Twin Rogga + Regular Redeemer). But you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs - or in this case, can't fix the scaling which made enemies that weren't level 100+ somewhat irrelevant without nerfing a few fun tricks. And the full Redeemer Prime was setting a worrying precedent - it not needing the combo, taking that fun skill + buildcrafting element out the equation. Now, IMO, it was balanced by virtue of range and being single-target, but the potential was there for some dangerously OP stuff.

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6 minutes ago, TyrianMollusk said:

This seems wrong.  Some of us like building combo and using crits.  Taking some of the combo counter makes sense, but taking ALL the combo counter completely resets your build-up, and turns it into a total either-or kind of thing.  If you want to build combo, you can never heavy attack, and if you heavy attack, you may as well not really build combo anymore.  Especially with the mods you've tied to heavy attacks, 

Take a look at the prevalence of combo duration mods and think about what that means.  People want to keep their combo counter.  The heavy attack system basically competes with this mod type, rendering it fairly useless unless someone avoids heavy attacks.

I think a better compromise could have been found than "heavy attacks wipe the combo counter".  Regardless of how that works, one-attack combo wiping will be less fun than it could be, and remove things your melee-favoring players could be playing with.

Also, alt-fire attacks are always annoying for controller players.  I know you never even think about testing controller play and seem unwilling to give us better tools (eg, ability menu key could let us map dpad to more keys), but I hope you at least won't add to the nuisance by forgetting to implement it or something, like how the channeling change just left controller players with broken controls for a while.

But doesn't the new system completely eliminate the functionality of the combo counter EXCEPT as a thing to spend on heavy attacks? I thought I understood that the whole "combo counter increases your damage mult over time" was being removed, and now melee just does static damage and builds a number up whose only functionality is to be 'spent' in some heavy attack which it powers up. There's no longer a reason to "keep" your combo counter except to make your heavy attack hit harder and harder.

 

EDIT: Cosign on the problem with "alt fire" on controller. Now that melee is going back to being an equippable system, why not let us use, say, the reload button for heavy attacks? That's a face-button by default that isn't getting any use if your melee weapon is out.

Edited by RhythmScript
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While I'm slightly sad about Blood Rush and CO, I think having more flexibility in builds will be a good thing ultimately. 

I'm pretty happy with range mods being normalized. Hopefully it will make fist/sparring weapons less painful to try to use.

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3 minutes ago, TyrianMollusk said:

This seems wrong.  Some of us like building combo and using crits.  Taking some of the combo counter makes sense, but taking ALL the combo counter completely resets your build-up, and turns it into a total either-or kind of thing.  If you want to build combo, you can never heavy attack, and if you heavy attack, you may as well not really build combo anymore.  Especially with the mods you've tied to heavy attacks, 

Take a look at the prevalence of combo duration mods and think about what that means.  People want to keep their combo counter.  The heavy attack system basically competes with this mod type, rendering it fairly useless unless someone avoids heavy attacks.

I think a better compromise could have been found than "heavy attacks wipe the combo counter".  Regardless of how that works, one-attack combo wiping will be less fun than it could be, and remove things your melee-favoring players could be playing with.

Also, alt-fire attacks are always annoying for controller players.  I know you never even think about testing controller play and seem unwilling to give us better tools (eg, ability menu key could let us map dpad to more keys), but I hope you at least won't add to the nuisance by forgetting to implement it or something, like how the channeling change just left controller players with broken controls for a while.

Take to mind there's to the mods now, an unmodded Heavy Attack eats all of your combo, however "Combo Efficiency" is also a thing, which reduces the amount of combo counter that a heavy attack eats (Bear said something about it in page... 2? when talking about what changes a channeling effiency/channeling damage riven would undergo). Effectively, if you want to build for heavy attacks you probably want at least a bit of combo efficiency in your build.

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1 hour ago, [DE]Bear said:

Allows a player to activate a dodge any time during a melee attack to end the combo immediately and dodge out of the way.  

I suggest learning from Bayonetta and allowing us to hold combo through a dodge if we want.  This better integrates dodging into aggressive play.

Learning from Bayonetta in general would be amazing for Warframe's sadly rudimentary melee combat.  There is so much more you could have done to make playing fun and interesting.

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After carefully reading this, I gotta say it's impressive! On paper, it adresses every single flaw the current system has.

  1. Dying due to combo animation lock
  2. Losing all melee functionality an hour into a mission because you haven't been using it in like 10 seconds and then taking 10 more minutes before you can get your 4X back
  3. Having a modding system that clearly favors certain types of weapons
  4. General animation latency that forces you to use a high range weapon

 

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These changes look great. Love the addition of heavy attacks and animation cancels.

This is a minor thing, but I'd like to see the weapon's stance type displayed, either as a line in the arsenal stat block, or on its own line in the description text. And let us search by type; if I type in "glaive" or "scythe" show me all of them!

Edited by hexciple
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I'm fine with Covert Lethality being moved off daggers but I hope they also change Ash up a bit because completely removing it with no replacement is a pretty big nerf to fatal teleport builds.

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1 hour ago, [DE]Bear said:

10. Exalted Weapons
As expected, all melee-based Exalted Weapons will also receive the Phase 2 functionality treatment, gaining access to the combo changes.

What about abilities that scale off the combo multiplier like Khora's Whipclaw and Atlas' Landslide? How do these changes affect them? Are they now unable to increase their damage based on the new combo system? If that's the case it's a massive nerf to such abilities. 

Aside from that the rest of the changes are looking great so far. The changes to Condition Overload seem a bit off-putting at first but with all melees getting a base dmg increase I think they should be able to balance each other out, but we'll just have to wait for the numbers to verify that. 

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