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Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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Just now, bibmobello said:

Consuming not all the combo counter, only a part of it. Considering actually maiming strike attacks deal insane amount of damage compared to normal attacks even with stance bonuses, they have to be considered special attacks as well.

The slide attack is not a special attack, it is the mod that makes it "special". Property-wise slide attacks don't have any spectacular bonuses. And the mod SHOULDN'T give insane amounts of damage with such little effort, it doesn't even scale, you get its full potential on the first hit, even BloodRush has to stack (and it will also be reworked, mind you).

Heavy strikes do 4x damage by default, and wil be affected by combo counter, these are special attacks, even more because the heavy slams will have a special property: the "juggle status"

Edited by HolySeraphin

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4 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

Rhino's Stomp has larger ranger.

And costs a lot more energy to spam. Ground slam: Far more efficient, spammable, and requires high velocity movement to perform; making it difficult to hit when executing. 

I still need an answer to my question. What warframe ability can be duplicated with all frames without equipping anything?

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Just now, RavingRoman said:

And costs a lot more energy to spam. Ground slam: Far more efficient, spammable, and requires high velocity movement to perform; making it difficult to hit when executing. 

I still need an answer to my question. What warframe ability can be duplicated with all frames without equipping anything?

Not exactly more efficient,

Rhino's Stomp has 25m range BASE, does 800 damage and lasts 8 seconds by default.

Ground slams with the lifted status have like 3-5m and use the combo counter. Also,using heavy slams without combo counter gives diminished results and almost no duration on lifted status. 

You can't use ground slams to stun a large group of enemies, because you will still get shot, unlike Rhino's.

Edited by HolySeraphin

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1 minute ago, HolySeraphin said:

Not exactly more efficient,

Rhino's Stomp has 25m range BASE, does 800 damahge and lasts 8 seconds by default.

Ground slams with the lifted status have like 3-5m and use the combo counter. Also,using heavy slams without combo counter gives diminished results and almost no duration on lifted status. 

You can't use ground slams to stun a large group of enemies, because you will still get shot, unlike Rhino's.

Point made. At least until additional mods to improve that come into existence. 

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Just now, RavingRoman said:

Point made. At least until additional mods to improve that come into existence. 

You really think that there will be a mod that increases ground slam radius by 500%? Maybe there will be range mods for ground slam, but that will mostly liked increased it to 12m at most and that will sacrifice damage on your weapon or other things in your warframe.

Edited by HolySeraphin

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What about exalted blade. it doesnt have heavy attacks per se. (an attac where you charge and then hit for damage) also life strike will be useless now unless the damage of heavy attacks is overwhelmingly powerful. 

is there any good way to make the heavy attack on the blind justice stance more fluid? this makes life strike on nikanas more viable

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1 hour ago, HolySeraphin said:

Wait a second, in my example with 3 stacks of +90% each the damage is higher than the current build with 6 procs...oh no. Let's test with +75% (which is probably the worst case scenario):

3400 total damage before CO (because of the weapon buff). 3 procs with +75% each.

Final damage = 3400x 1.75 x 1.75 x 1.75 = 18,221.

Not THAT big of a difference compared to +90%. It still outperforms the current CO with 6 stacks, and is 11.7x stronger than primed bane mods.

My problem with the condition overload is the 3 procs. It's rewarding weapons with lower procs and nerfing weapons that rely on the more procs. So if i had an atterax with weeping wounds i'll get max damage off ips alone instead of the weapon that used condition overload with 4-6 different procs. That'll just push a slash monster crit meta with weapon that have a high cc and sc like gram p, atterax, tipedo p and such, while leaving the status heavy weapons in the dust. They'll get basically a free buff without sacrificing anything. If they going to nerf condition overload nerf it, but leave the damage uncapped.

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Just now, Acethemain said:

What about exalted blade. it doesnt have heavy attacks per se. (an attac where you charge and then hit for damage) also life strike will be useless now unless the damage of heavy attacks is overwhelmingly powerful. 

is there any good way to make the heavy attack on the blind justice stance more fluid? this makes life strike on nikanas more viable

Will probably get the sword heavy attack. Heavy strikes deal 4x the damage of the new values, which means that it is 13.4x stronger than a normal swing on the current build, so yeah, powerful.

Edited by HolySeraphin

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13 hours ago, Jukantos said:

Look at it this way: If the new melee LOOKS awesome but is utterly bad at getting rid of enemies (while it has to compete with stuff like Mesa, Saryn, Ignis Wraith, Beam Kitguns) then noone is going to use it. It'll look very cool. And noone is going to use it.

Try using Melee RIGHT NOW in Arbitrations without getting oneshot the second you run into a batch of enemies with a shield drone you didn't take down fast enough. Fun innit? Now imagine doing that without Primed Reach long range melee weapons. Congratulations, now you see why the only way forward is going to be Mesa

I got u

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Just now, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

My problem with the condition overload is the 3 procs. It's rewarding weapons with lower procs and nerfing weapons that rely on the more procs. So if i had an atterax with weeping wounds i'll get max damage off ips alone instead of the weapon that used condition overload with 4-6 different procs. That'll just push a slash monster crit meta with weapon that have a high cc and sc like gram p, atterax, tipedo p and such, while leaving the status heavy weapons in the dust. They'll get basically a free buff without sacrificing anything. If they going to nerf condition overload nerf it, but leave the damage uncapped.

The changes means that weapons that previously relied on 6 procs need only 3 now, which means you can add maybe 2 +90% elemental damage mods instead of 4 60% elemental mods on status heavy weapons. Therefore you actually get more damage. The exception is 7-10 procs, but they were too OP builds to begin with. 

And this won't exactly push slash builds into meta, more than already is. You don't have the hunter's munitions equivalent for melee weapons, so even crit weapons will need some status chance to reliably take advatage of Condition Overload, and many crit heavy weapons have around 5-15% status chance, unlike status weapons with 20-30%

Edited by HolySeraphin
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I can't wait to see if the Zaw arcanes are going to be useful now:

Exodia Brave, Triumph and Valor

Those 3 could make the Plague Kripath even more fun. 🙂

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Just now, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

My problem with the condition overload is the 3 procs. It's rewarding weapons with lower procs and nerfing weapons that rely on the more procs. So if i had an atterax with weeping wounds i'll get max damage off ips alone instead of the weapon that used condition overload with 4-6 different procs. That'll just push a slash monster crit meta with weapon that have a high cc and sc like gram p, atterax, tipedo p and such, while leaving the status heavy weapons in the dust. They'll get basically a free buff without sacrificing anything. If they going to nerf condition overload nerf it, but leave the damage uncapped.

 

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2 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

The changes means that weapons that previously relied on 6 procs need only 3 now, which means you can add maybe 2 +90% elemental damage mods instead of 4 60% elemental mods on status heavy weapons. Therefore you actually get more damage. The exception is 7-10 procs, but they were too OP builds to begin with. 

Obviously not getting the point. Ok i have a atterax weeping wounds crit monster now. it'll get all benefits from this condition overload vs the old condition overload. Bring this weapon way pass any status heavy weapon will ever be.

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Just now, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Obviously not getting the point. Ok i have a atterax weeping wounds crit monster now. it'll get all benefits from this condition overload vs the old condition overload. Bring this weapon way pass any status heavy weapon will ever be.

I have a feeling they will nerf Atterax, after all they did say that they will rebalance all melee weapons. They know people abuse Atterax and Maiming Strike. I expect it to have its status chance lowered to 5-10%

Edited by HolySeraphin

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Just now, HolySeraphin said:

I have a feeling they will nerf Atterax, after all they did say that they will rebalance all melee weapons. They know people abuse Atterax and Maiming Strike.

Even the gram p tipedo p whatever. just slap on weeping wounds make a slash monster and get all benefits from the condition overload.

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Just now, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Even the gram p tipedo p whatever. just slap on weeping wounds make a slash monster and get all benefits from the condition overload.

Gram Prime is slow even with Berserker. Tipedo Prime is a hybrid weapon, and will probably suffer a rebalance as well. But adding condition overload and Weeping wounds together means you won't be able to use other mods, I don't think that adding Weeping Wounds justifies sacrificing a +90%/+60% elemental mod, which affects the total damage that will be considered by CO. In fact. Let's look at a hypothetical build for Atterax:

Primed Pressure Point, Organ Shatter, Blood Rush,Voltaic Strike, Virulent Scourge, Condition Overload, Weeping Wounds, Berserker.

Atterax would have 20+12+12 = 44% status chance before WW and CO. 

Edited by HolySeraphin

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Overall it seems like a step it i the right direction, but I can't help but feel like some of those mod changes are more nerfs than conversions, although it would be too early to judge without gameplay. I have some questions and suggestions tho:

Glaive type weapons had the ability to be detonated while in the air, this function got removed when melee 2.5 was introduced, will this be restored in 3.0?

Certain weapons like the Mios had unique quick-melee animations, what will happen to these?

 

Melee weapon types should be merged based on grip type, enableing weapons from both categories to use each others stances, since you alredy broke the molds with certain weapons, for example staves shoud be in theory long blunt weapons, while polearms in thory should be long sharp weapons, but we have blunt polearms and sharp staves, same goes for heavy blades and hammers, my suggested categories would be:

Staves+Polearms+(Scythes)

Hammers+Heavy Blades+Two handed Nikana+(Scythes)

Longswords+Machetes (with Daggers, Nikanas and Rapiers being able to use longsword stances)

Sparring+Fist+(maybe Claws)

Dual Swords+ Dual Daggers.

I'm not really sure about scythes, they could go to either category. Then again we have some more unique weapon types that wouldn't fit in with any other weapons so I don't really know how to categorize those.

 

As for my second idea: a second stance slot that we could switch to in mission, it could bring some serious variety to melee gameplay (while greatly improving weapons like the dark split sword). This way we could chose stances for different situations while diversifying gameplay.

Edit:

Another suggestion would be to make combo inputs custom, for example: I prefer block, pause e and hold e combos, and I would rather not use anything that uses wasd, but others might like it differently, the ability to set custom inputs(at least for pc) would be really nice.

Edited by Novahkiiin
added another idea

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14 minutes ago, (PS4)Sun_TsuNami said:

I can't wait to see if the Zaw arcanes are going to be useful now:

Exodia Brave, Triumph and Valor

Those 3 could make the Plague Kripath even more fun. 🙂

Ikr? Reliable energy regen with exodia brave

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Just now, HolySeraphin said:

Gram Prime is slow even with Berserker. Tipedo Prime is a hybrid weapon, and will probably suffer a rebalance as well. But adding condition overload and Weeping wounds together means you won't be able to use other mods, I don't think that adding Weeping Wounds justifies sacrificing a +90% elemental mod, which affects the total damage that will be considered by CO.

Ok you not understanding yet again. By just proccing ips you'll get full benefits of condition overload. Wouldnt need 60/60 mods at all with weeping wounds. So majority slash weapons like a tipedo p atterax and such will proc all ips with just weeping wounds thus gaining max benefits from condition overload vs a weapon that needed 5-6 procs. They'll get a massive damage increase with the slash procs alone

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Just now, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Ok you not understanding yet again. By just proccing ips you'll get full benefits of condition overload. Wouldnt need 60/60 mods at all with weeping wounds. So majority slash weapons like a tipedo p atterax and such will proc all ips with just weeping wounds thus gaining max benefits from condition overload vs a weapon that needed 5-6 procs. They'll get a massive damage increase with the slash procs alone

You need status chance to proc IPS, and 20% is not nearly enough by its own to compensate. Using Weeping Wounds with A 3.0x combo counter and 20% status chance will give you 47% total status chance, and a 3.5x combo counter will giive you 51% status chance. Ther's still 50% chance you won't proc, so you won't get the benefits of CO. And even worse, you need to proc quickly before the first proc expires, so that 50% chance might allow the first proc to expire before you can add another one. Impact procs lasts like 1-2 seconds. In a real scenario you would only receive the benefits of slash and puncture. But considering the IPS distribution of Atterax (90% slash), chances are that you will only proc slash. Tipedo Prime is 80% slash and Gram Prime is 75% slash.

Edited by HolySeraphin
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8 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

You need status chance to proc IPS, and 20% is not nearly enough by its own to compensate. Using Weeping Wounds with A 3.0x combo counter and 20% status chance will give you 47% total status chance, and a 3.5x combo counter will giive you 51% status chance. Ther's still 50% chance you won't proc, so you won't get the benefits of CO.

You do know sc rivens exist right? Sc crit damage range. Boost sc to easily hit 100%  all damage mods with weeping wounds add in blood rush condition overload thus making a slash monster. Proccing nothing but ips. Oh look at the destreza p can proc all ips of the stance alone mind as well slap condition overload on it for max benefits. Destreza wouldn't even need weeping wounds lol.

Edited by (PS4)Dyin-Kyo
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Just now, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

You do know sc rivens exist right? Sc crit damage range. Boost sc to easily hit 100%  all damage mods with weeping wounds add in blood rush condition overload thus making a slash monster. Proccing nothing but ips. Oh look at the destreza p can proc all ips of the stance alone mind as well slap condition overload on it for max benefits.

You still need a good distribution of IPS to proc every IPS. Status chance favours the damage type with highest number. If you have a 100 damage weapon with 1 impact and 99 slash, you will probably never proc impact.

 A 33% distribution is ideal, but most melee weapons are 70-90% of one damage type, so 70% puncture or +90% slash, and those who have good distribution have a minor stat like 5% crit chance. The best candidate is Sigma Octantis with 62% slash but the second highest number is puncture, but it is still 0.25 of the value of slash, which means you will proc slash 4x more often.

Destreza Prime is 9.1 impact, 53.2 puncture and 13.7 slash which 70% of th damage is puncture. The slash value (second highest) is 1/4 of the value of puncture, and good luck trying to proc impact.

Your choice would be a riven with +90% impact and +90% puncture, but that is not optimal, because you still need status chance, and even if you do get a godly riven, good luck tryng to replicate it.

Edited by HolySeraphin
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I have one concern with these changes and it involves controller button binding.

Currently alt fire on default is equipped to the right joystick.

This is already kinda annoying for guns but if the binding isnt changed for melee its ganna be even more annoying.

 

My solution would be this.

If a player is in full melee mode (they hold weapon swap button) then the alt fire button should be switched to B. In conjunction RT should be set as default melee input while in full melee mode.

This change would free up B in full melee mode as well as give players on console a less cumbersome way to do heavy attacks.

Edited by (XB1)WhiteKnightBlsm
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18 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

You need status chance to proc IPS, and 20% is not nearly enough by its own to compensate. Using Weeping Wounds with A 3.0x combo counter and 20% status chance will give you 47% total status chance, and a 3.5x combo counter will giive you 51% status chance. Ther's still 50% chance you won't proc, so you won't get the benefits of CO. And even worse, you need to proc quickly before the first proc expires, so that 50% chance might allow the first proc to expire before you can add another one. Impact procs lasts like 1-2 seconds. In a real scenario you would only receive the benefits of slash and puncture. But considering the IPS distribution of Atterax (90% slash), chances are that you will only proc slash. Tipedo Prime is 80% slash and Gram Prime is 75% slash.

And u believe a weapon that have a good cc and sc like a tipedo p should be equal to a weapon that have to go out the way to use 5 different elements just to compete like the lesion. No, im not with it. If 3procs all these crit monsters need to reap full benefits of condition overload why use a status weapon.

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1 minute ago, HolySeraphin said:

You still need a good distribution of IPS to proc every IPS. Status chance favours the damage type with highest number. If you have a 100 damage weapon with 1 impact and 99 slash, you will probably never proc impact.

 A 33% distribution is ideal, but most melee weapons are 70-90% of one damage type, so 70% puncture or +90% slash, and those who have good distribution have a minor stat like 5% crit chance. The best candidate is Sigma Octantis with 62% slash but the second highest number is puncture, but it is still 0.25 of the value of slash, which means you will proc slash 4x more often.

Destreza Prime is 9.1 impact, 53.2 puncture and 13.7 slash which 70% of th damage is puncture. The slash value (second highest) is 1/4 of the value of puncture, and good luck trying to proc impact.

I think you're wasting your breath.
These people spin around with a macro on.
I doubt even DE knows all the in's and outs of the calculations, so you shouldn't expect casual players to.

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