Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

1 minute ago, HolySeraphin said:

Nah, it is fun to prove them wrong, even if they don't accept it.

Getting rid of forced procs will gut too many weapons. You think people didnt use weapons before oh boy.

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

6 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

I think you're wasting your breath.
These people spin around with a macro on.
I doubt even DE knows all the in's and outs of the calculations, so you shouldn't expect casual players to.

You assuming I'm a meme strike user?? Definitely not. I like to use my weapon as a weapon not become a beyblade ty.

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Getting rid of forced procs will gut too many weapons. You think people didnt use weapons before oh boy.

How many people do you think are even aware of forced procs, or choose the combo just for the forced proc? 

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

7 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

And you do know they're changing the combos, right?

You think a weapon that can easily proc 3procs lets say you did put viral on the tipedo p whatever. Should reap the same benefits that went out the way to use 5 different elements? 

[Gurpgork]

Please rethink the Condition Overload change. Basically any status melee can stack 3 procs in no time at all, whereas the current system encourages using instant swapping and dedicating your full loadout into stacking status. 

If the mod is too powerful and has to be changed, that's fine, but please don't make it less interactive and less interesting to use in the process. 

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

2 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

How many people do you think are even aware of forced procs, or choose the combo just for the forced proc? 

Plenty, do you think i'll use a rapier if it didnt force slash? Nope

[-WL-Zakonodatell]

R.I.P game💀

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

You think a weapon that can easily proc 3procs lets say you did put viral on the tipedo p whatever. Should reap the same benefits that went out the way to use 5 different elements? 

Ah, changed the build AND argument to include an elemental mod, IPS values have 4x more weight than elemental procs, so no, you still won't proc a lot.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

27 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

You need status chance to proc IPS, and 20% is not nearly enough by its own to compensate. Using Weeping Wounds with A 3.0x combo counter and 20% status chance will give you 47% total status chance, and a 3.5x combo counter will giive you 51% status chance. Ther's still 50% chance you won't proc, so you won't get the benefits of CO. And even worse, you need to proc quickly before the first proc expires, so that 50% chance might allow the first proc to expire before you can add another one. Impact procs lasts like 1-2 seconds. In a real scenario you would only receive the benefits of slash and puncture. But considering the IPS distribution of Atterax (90% slash), chances are that you will only proc slash. Tipedo Prime is 80% slash and Gram Prime is 75% slash.

You don’t necessarily need status chance to proc IPS status. Please keep in mind that certain combos from stances have guaranteed procs as well. If DE plans to remove these guaranteed procs in the melee rework it’ll be a pretty big ****storm since some weapons rely on these guaranteed IPS procs to get by.

This is the reason why capping 3 Status Effects to Condition Overload is a travesty. Melee weapons will have a way to guarantee proc an IPS/elemental status via combos from stances in some way or form and will pave the way to a mindless approach in getting an easy dps increase via melee-only. All you need to do is mod for your preferred elemental combo and you’re golden in utilizing this version of Condition Overload. However, capping it to 3 Status Effects removes the beautiful synergy that this mod was used in having enemies primed with status ailments via your guns, Warframe abilities, and Companion status procs.

Instead of having a mod that will honestly become a blind dps increase just by equipping it on your melee mod build, why aren’t we vouching for Condition Overload to remain uncapped as it is now but with a decreased multiplier to compensate for the changes/buffs to overall melee damage? Wouldn’t that be the appropriate course of action instead of blindly following, agreeing, and waiting for DE to put out the [multiplier] numbers that we know would negatively impact the state of Condition Overload if it remains capped to 3 Status Effects?

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

1 minute ago, Gurpgork said:

Please rethink the Condition Overload change. Basically any status melee can stack 3 procs in no time at all, whereas the current system encourages using instant swapping and dedicating your full loadout into stacking status. 

If the mod is too powerful and has to be changed, that's fine, but please don't make it less interactive and less interesting to use in the process. 

I'll be fine if they nerfed it and leave it uncapped than just cap it at 3procs and let all weapons basically abuse it

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

You don’t necessarily need status chance to proc IPS status. Please keep in mind that certain combos from stances have guaranteed procs as well. If DE plans to remove these guaranteed procs in the melee rework it’ll be a pretty big ****storm since some weapons rely on these guaranteed IPS procs to get by.

This is the reason why capping 3 Status Effects to Condition Overload is a travesty. Melee weapons will have a way to guarantee proc an IPS/elemental status via combos from stances in some way or form and will pave the way to a mindless approach in getting an easy dps increase via melee-only. All you need to do is mod for your preferred elemental combo and you’re golden in utilizing this version of Condition Overload. However, capping it to 3 Status Effects removes the beautiful synergy that this mod was used in having enemies primed with status ailments via your guns, Warframe abilities, and Companion status procs.

Instead of having a mod that will honestly become a blind dps increase just by equipping it on your melee mod build, why aren’t we vouching for Condition Overload to remain uncapped as it is now but with a decreased multiplier to compensate for the changes/buffs to overall melee damage? Wouldn’t that be the appropriate course of action instead of blindly following, agreeing, and waiting for DE to put out the [multiplier] numbers that we know would negatively impact the state of Condition Overload if it remains capped to 3 Status Effects?

Exactly 

[Gurpgork]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

I'll be fine if they nerfed it and leave it uncapped than just cap it at 3procs and let all weapons basically abuse it

My thoughts exactly. I even support a nerf to CO if other mods are being brought up in power, but not if it kills the instant swap loadouts we have now. 

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

Here’s a case in point, WuKong’s Primal Fury stance: 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Primal_Fury_(Stance)

There are several combos that will guarantee proc a status ailment when the attack lands. Iron Staff also already has a high enough Status Chance to proc Bleed reliable even with the marginal Slash base it has. That’s already 2 Status procs accounted for. Had you modded for Gas or Blast, you’re over the limit if Condition Overload is capped at 3 Status Effects, since Gas and Blast count as two status procs instead of one like most elemental status.

You can pretty up the numbers or increase that multiplier no matter what, but capping at 3 Status Effects would just provide the playerbase a thoughtless dps increase in equipping the mod instead of undergoing a tactful approach in getting more dps via other avenues of status procs (Warframe abilities, guns, Companions). It will be a removal to a charming synergy and strategy across your entire loadout if the cap on Condition Overload remains at 3 Status Effect procs.

Leave Condition Overload uncapped. Just don’t touch that part of the mod. If need be, recalculate the multiplier at present to justify whatever melee changes is to come with Phase 2.

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Here’s a case in point, WuKong’s Primal Fury stance: 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Primal_Fury_(Stance)

There are several combos that will guarantee proc a status ailment when the attack lands. Iron Staff also already has a high enough Status Chance to proc Bleed reliable even with the marginal Slash base it has. That’s already 2 Status procs accounted for. Had you modded for Gas or Blast, you’re over the limit if Condition Overload is capped at 3 Status Effects, since Gas and Blast count as two status procs instead of one like most elemental status.

You can pretty up the numbers or increase that multiplier no matter what, but capping at 3 Status Effects would just provide the playerbase a thoughtless dps increase in equipping the mod instead of undergoing a tactful approach in getting more dps via other avenues of status procs (Warframe abilities, guns, Companions). It will be a removal to a charming synergy and strategy across your entire loadout if the cap on Condition Overload remains at 3 Status Effect procs.

Leave Condition Overload uncapped. Just don’t touch that part of the mod. If need be, recalculate the multiplier at present to justify whatever melee changes is to come with Phase 2.

But he/she believes that if the weapon only proc3 procs it Should reap benefits like a weapon that have 5-6differnt procs on it. Like put viral on the tipedo p u going to guarantee get 3 procs vs let say a kripath that went out the way to have 6differnt procs. Should reap the same benefits of the max condition overload because the cap at 3. Not fair and definitely not balanced 

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

But he/she believes that if the weapon only proc3 procs it Should reap benefits like a weapon that have 5-6differnt procs on it

My guy, if you want to unga-bunga your way to victory there are other games for that. But here, with Condition Overload, we need to be clear with DE that placing a cap on it will have an abject quality of life approach in how we interact with Status melee and gameplay throughout our entire arsenal. Not just melee alone.

[Obsidion]

Im really happy about the "foward combo" and the way combos are going to work from now on, i hope i will be able to use volt + melee again.

And now that thing limit to condition overload just ruined the only build where people used Status related mods,  now people will just use 1 condition overload and continue modding with crit mods.

Before i had a lot of fun finding ways to combine the mods to get 5 stats, finding warframes who give Stats with their skills and even the sentinel.

But now i just have to go with the most basic crit build that everyone use already, i dont know how this is going to bring variety to the melee builds.

You guys wanted to make the builds more diverse but this is just the opposite.

[TengMengRui]

On 2019-10-19 at 1:58 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Sticky Fingers

Arrivederci

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

My guy, if you want to unga-bunga your way to victory there are other games for that. But here, with Condition Overload, we need to be clear with DE that placing a cap on it will have an abject quality of life approach in how we interact with Status melee and gameplay throughout our entire arsenal. Not just melee alone.

Very well. I accept that I was wrong regarding weapons being able to easilly reach 3 procs *bows*

Now, how are we going to balance this? Because the numbers on CO are still busted, and even lowering the percentage to +30% is still a lot. A 1000 damage weapon with 6 procs would deal 4,826 damage, a +382% damage, which is still a lot for a mod, you're basically adding a chroma  to your build. 

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

10 minutes ago, Obsidion said:

Im really happy about the "foward combo" and the way combos are going to work from now on, i hope i will be able to use volt + melee again.

And now that thing limit to condition overload just ruined the only build where people used Status related mods,  now people will just use 1 condition overload and continue modding with crit mods.

Before i had a lot of fun finding ways to combine the mods to get 5 stats, finding warframes who give Stats with their skills and even the sentinel.

But now i just have to go with the most basic crit build that everyone use already, i dont know how this is going to bring variety to the melee builds.

You guys wanted to make the builds more diverse but this is just the opposite.

I have a kripath 32% sc 14%cc can proc 6different elements, destreza just proc'ing ips blows my weapon out the water with these new changes. Guaranteed

[Graavarg]

6 hours ago, RWBY-WhiteRose said:

It's an improvement to fluidity for sure. Not sure how an ingame item (do you mean maiming strike?) is an exploit though.

No, of course it isn't a true exploit. Maiming Strike (and it didn't mean that mod explicitly) is just an example of how the community "exploited" something (we are quite good at that 🙂), making more with it that was intended but unfortunately skewering the game at the same time. It's one of the things I love about Warframe, the way we players find new ways of using the complex "fight" sandbox.

There has been tens if not hundreds of posts over the years suggesting Maiming Strike should be nerfed, simply because it locks the melee game in a single file. Removing damage through walls helped a bit, but didn't touch the underlying problem. Well, DE is on that problem too this time.

I agree with you about CO, btw. In my opinion the problem isn't with the mod, but with the limited top options of weapons really empowering the mod.

[HolySeraphin]

The problem is how CO is calculated, it is an exponential mod, instead  of addtive, and even more because it is the last thing that gets considered in the damage calculation. It is a Bane mod on steroids, and bane mods are already good.

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, Graavarg said:

No, of course it isn't a true exploit. Maiming Strike (and it didn't mean that mod explicitly) is just an example of how the community "exploited" something (we are quite good at that 🙂), making more with it that was intended but unfortunately skewering the game at the same time. It's one of the things I love about Warframe, the way we players find new ways of using the complex "fight" sandbox.

There has been tens if not hundreds of posts over the years suggesting Maiming Strike should be nerfed, simply because it locks the melee game in a single file. Removing damage through walls helped a bit, but didn't touch the underlying problem. Well, DE is on that problem too this time.

I agree with you about CO, btw. In my opinion the problem isn't with the mod, but with the limited top options of weapons really empowering the mod.

Or the builds with primary and secondary, currently you can get as much as 66x damage with it if you proc 9 stats.

[BghElwood]

40 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

How many people do you think are even aware of forced procs, or choose the combo just for the forced proc? 

I use combos and stances often for the forced procs.  Although it depends on the weapon and the build.
Ex:  I pretty much exclusively use carving mantis because it has a lot of forced slash procs.  I also like that the combos are easy to preform.   
 

I firmly think that getting rid of the stances forced procs is a bad thing.  Simply having them creates a whole other level of gameplay.  

[HolySeraphin]

The most "ideal" solution would be to make CO additive, but that nerf would be too big if you think about it. Still, 9 procs would give you +540% damage, instead of 6600%

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, Graavarg said:

No, of course it isn't a true exploit. Maiming Strike (and it didn't mean that mod explicitly) is just an example of how the community "exploited" something (we are quite good at that 🙂), making more with it that was intended but unfortunately skewering the game at the same time. It's one of the things I love about Warframe, the way we players find new ways of using the complex "fight" sandbox.

There has been tens if not hundreds of posts over the years suggesting Maiming Strike should be nerfed, simply because it locks the melee game in a single file. Removing damage through walls helped a bit, but didn't touch the underlying problem. Well, DE is on that problem too this time.

I agree with you about CO, btw. In my opinion the problem isn't with the mod, but with the limited top options of weapons really empowering the mod.

Hm.. The thing is: How much work people put into CO builds that require primary/secondary weapons? You choose a gun with high status (there's plently of good ones), put +60% elemental mods and then use it with CO. That doesn't sound too much interactive gameplay-wise. In fact, it is quite similar to Maiming Strike, with the fact that you're forced to fire your gun and then use your melee, in a similar fashion to how Maiming Strike users are forced to press 3 buttons to do high damage.

In a sense, you're limiting your options with this kind of build. Perhaps DE wants us to be more interactive, to use everything in our arsenal instead of just a very repetitive tactic of shooting, swaping and meele (even more because of how you can instantly swap weapons now).