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Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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40 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

How many people do you think are even aware of forced procs, or choose the combo just for the forced proc? 

I use combos and stances often for the forced procs.  Although it depends on the weapon and the build.
Ex:  I pretty much exclusively use carving mantis because it has a lot of forced slash procs.  I also like that the combos are easy to preform.   
 

I firmly think that getting rid of the stances forced procs is a bad thing.  Simply having them creates a whole other level of gameplay.  

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The most "ideal" solution would be to make CO additive, but that nerf would be too big if you think about it. Still, 9 procs would give you +540% damage, instead of 6600%

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Just now, Graavarg said:

No, of course it isn't a true exploit. Maiming Strike (and it didn't mean that mod explicitly) is just an example of how the community "exploited" something (we are quite good at that 🙂), making more with it that was intended but unfortunately skewering the game at the same time. It's one of the things I love about Warframe, the way we players find new ways of using the complex "fight" sandbox.

There has been tens if not hundreds of posts over the years suggesting Maiming Strike should be nerfed, simply because it locks the melee game in a single file. Removing damage through walls helped a bit, but didn't touch the underlying problem. Well, DE is on that problem too this time.

I agree with you about CO, btw. In my opinion the problem isn't with the mod, but with the limited top options of weapons really empowering the mod.

Hm.. The thing is: How much work people put into CO builds that require primary/secondary weapons? You choose a gun with high status (there's plently of good ones), put +60% elemental mods and then use it with CO. That doesn't sound too much interactive gameplay-wise. In fact, it is quite similar to Maiming Strike, with the fact that you're forced to fire your gun and then use your melee, in a similar fashion to how Maiming Strike users are forced to press 3 buttons to do high damage.

In a sense, you're limiting your options with this kind of build. Perhaps DE wants us to be more interactive, to use everything in our arsenal instead of just a very repetitive tactic of shooting, swaping and meele (even more because of how you can instantly swap weapons now).

Edited by HolySeraphin
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On 2019-10-18 at 7:45 PM, tekmansam said:

I hate to use this language, but that is an entitled way of looking at things.  Change 3 things to achieve balance, or change 100 things?  I'm afraid I can't really take that opinion seriously.

Oh, yes. Change 3 things that affect more than 100 weapons, or change 100 weapons so that the rest don't suffer? Yes, let's go with the former because it seems entitled based on YOUR simple-minded observation. If anything, you're the one that's entitled. You want to change gameplay styles you don't like it. That's the most entitled view you can have when it comes to a game. Are you going to complain in melee 3.0 when someone figures out how to kill faster than you without sliding, and they proceed to run circles around you and outkill you? 

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3 hours ago, ccjuju said:

I've noticed that most of the comments in support of these changes seem to be coming from people who can't give specific explanations for why they might be good or what they think they'll concretely add to the melee gameplay being meaninglessly repeating the phrase "it's more fluid" they're selling it with.  It just seems to be general display of support in the classic sort of "they're making the changes so they can't be bad by definition, anyone who disagrees is wrong" way.  And of course words like "love" are thrown in so as to characterize anyone who supports the changes as having "love", with the implication being that anyone who dislikes them must naturally only have hate.

In contrast, many of the people criticizing the changes are giving exact specific reasons either why they disrupt current gameplay styles or why the numeric differences are unwanted hard nerfs that railroad people into playing a certain way by default.  And all of these criticisms are in turn criticized and dismissed as being "griping" or "me, me, me", to the applause of fellow virtue-demonstrating supporters, as if being concerned about one's own enjoyment of the game, and the destruction of the modes that offer that enjoyment, is somehow not permissible and the only thing we're allowed to do is just shut up and accept everything without comment.  Either everyone is a "memeing strike" user and it's ok to not care what they think because "griping", or everyone is a covert lethality user and it's ok to not care what they think because "griping", and so on.  For the record, I use neither of those, but that shouldn't be a necessary qualification for someone to be allowed to state their arguments.  It doesn't help anything when the counterpoint to any criticism is "hey, that guy's griping, so I'm glad his favorite thing is being nerfed! Please clap!"

I really question what the people behind these changes think "fluid" means, and how these new techniques they've demonstrated in images and videos are supposed to improve "fluidity" at the cost of explicitly removing numerous existing techniques.  I've already stated why I think "heavy attacks" and air juggling look ridiculous, but it's more than just the physical impediment they add to game flow.  It's a reduction in player agency.  Now we go from the player constantly choosing when and wear to execute attacks and what relative position to hold in relation to the enemies on a constant, millisecond-level basis, to a more constrained "look, you've lifted heavy enemy X, now juggle him! You pretty much have to because we've removed the validity in doing anything else".  The naturalness, or fluidity, is being disrupted to become more of a systemized, "get enemy in X state and then execute Y" pattern.  Usage of in-game physics and character momentum is lost in favor of hardcoded lift states.  Melee in its current state is already extremely fluid.  Having to save up limited uses charges to expend on basic enemies that can no longer be defeated by the players' current ability to weave generous levels of mobility into an attack pattern via mod and stance setup is not fluid.  It's the opposite of fluid.  It's so far from fluid, dwarves are calling up asking if they can make an anvil out of it.

I did not say "fluid" one single time, as it is impossible to evaluate without playing. Personally I care less about the new "fluidity" than fixing (or even just trying to fix) the broken things that have plagued the game for years.

Also did not touch on "hate", though it is self-evident from this forum that there are players that already hate this, in part or as a whole.

For me it is more about what you do love (than about hate), if you love the game as a whole or love to use the broken things in the game giving you extra power. If it is the first, fixing the broken things within melee just basically is a really good thing. If it is the second, prepare to be disappointed.

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6 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

Hm.. The thing is: How much work people put into CO builds that require primary/secondary weapons? You choose a gun with high status (there's plently of good ones), put +60% elemental mods and then use it with CO. That doesn't sound too much interactive gameplay-wise. In fact, it is quite similar to Maiming Strike, with the fact that you're forced to fire your gun and then use your melee, in a similar fashion to how Maiming Strike users are forced to press 3 buttons to do high damage.

In a sense, you're limiting your options with this kind of build.

Ok but it's a different type of gameplay that requires synergy as opposed to just swing your melee.

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13 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

Now, how are we going to balance this? Because the numbers on CO are still busted, and even lowering the percentage to +30% is still a lot. A 1000 damage weapon with 6 procs would deal 4,826 damage, a +382% damage, which is still a lot for a mod, you're basically adding a chroma  to your build. 

It is as you and many others in this topic have already said: We don’t have the final numbers to dictate the finalization of Condition Overload.  The final numbers in how the overall buff to melee base damage will have an interaction to Condition Overload. Nor the final algorithm in which Condition Overload will perform. What I’m arguing for is the execution in implementing a cap on the mod’s Status Effects will have a negative impact in how we utilize Status melee throughout our entire arsenal. It would only serve to intrinsically boost the simplistic path in boosting melee damage as “melee alone” than theorizing methods in other avenues of status procs to boost that melee damage. It will be a nerf to mod build diversity.

If anything, until we get the numbers on how overall melee damage is buffed, how Combo Counter multiplier will play with mods like Blood Rush, Heavy Attacks’ finalized numbers in utilizing Combo Counter as an expendable resource and/or manipulating the Combo Counter via certain mods’ “efficiency,” then we can see Condition Overload’s algorithm and see how it is implemented.

Even a small start such as keeping Condition Overload’s Status Effects threshold left uncapped but making the melee damage multiplier at 10-20% will be a better start than having it capped at 3 Status Effects with an enhanced multiplier. It would just be a thoughtless rebalance with little to no foresight on what should be buffed and what should be nerfed with the mod.

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Just now, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Ok but it's a different type of gameplay that requires synergy as opposed to just swing your melee.

But you're still locked into the repeated cycle of "shoot and attack with melee". High status chance on primary/secondary is not that deep of synergy. It isn't too different from Saryn's synergy with her 1 and 4 skills, which is just a damage buff. It isn't like Gara's 1 exploding her wall, or Umbra's howl allowing you to take full advantage of Skiajati's passive.

Edited by HolySeraphin

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6 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

It is as you and many others in this topic have already said: We don’t have the final numbers to dictate the finalization of Condition Overload.  The final numbers in how the overall buff to melee base damage will have an interaction to Condition Overload. Nor the final algorithm in which Condition Overload will perform. What I’m arguing for is the execution in implementing a cap on the mod’s Status Effects will have a negative impact in how we utilize Status melee throughout our entire arsenal. It would only serve to intrinsically boost the simplistic path in boosting melee damage as “melee alone” than theorizing methods in other avenues of status procs to boost that melee damage. It will be a nerf to mod build diversity.

If anything, until we get the numbers on how overall melee damage is buffed, how Combo Counter multiplier will play with mods like Blood Rush, Heavy Attacks’ finalized numbers in utilizing Combo Counter as an expendable resource and/or manipulating the Combo Counter via certain mods’ “efficiency,” then we can see Condition Overload’s algorithm and see how it is implemented.

Even a small start such as keeping Condition Overload’s Status Effects threshold left uncapped but making the melee damage multiplier at 10-20% will be a better start than having it capped at 3 Status Effects with an enhanced multiplier. It would just be a thoughtless rebalance with little to no foresight on what should be buffed and what should be nerfed with the mod.

I'll say make it 40% at 9procs that'll be 20x being close to on par with blood rush weapons entering the red crit territory 

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12 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

It is as you and many others in this topic have already said: We don’t have the final numbers to dictate the finalization of Condition Overload.  The final numbers in how the overall buff to melee base damage will have an interaction to Condition Overload. Nor the final algorithm in which Condition Overload will perform. What I’m arguing for is the execution in implementing a cap on the mod’s Status Effects will have a negative impact in how we utilize Status melee throughout our entire arsenal. It would only serve to intrinsically boost the simplistic path in boosting melee damage as “melee alone” than theorizing methods in other avenues of status procs to boost that melee damage. It will be a nerf to mod build diversity.

If anything, until we get the numbers on how overall melee damage is buffed, how Combo Counter multiplier will play with mods like Blood Rush, Heavy Attacks’ finalized numbers in utilizing Combo Counter as an expendable resource and/or manipulating the Combo Counter via certain mods’ “efficiency,” then we can see Condition Overload’s algorithm and see how it is implemented.

Even a small start such as keeping Condition Overload’s Status Effects threshold left uncapped but making the melee damage multiplier at 10-20% will be a better start than having it capped at 3 Status Effects with an enhanced multiplier. It would just be a thoughtless rebalance with little to no foresight on what should be buffed and what should be nerfed with the mod.

Even at 9procs with 30% is only 10x. Which even isnt that extreme 

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Just now, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

I'll say make it 40% at 9procs that'll be 20x being close to on par with blood rush weapons entering the red crit territory 

Remember that the new damage values are 3.4x higher. So your suggestion would still make it too high. In the current build a 1000 damage becomes 66K. With the new values the "final damage before CO" is 3400, which would become 70,247. You're actually buffing CO.

Edited by HolySeraphin

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1 minute ago, HolySeraphin said:

Remember that the new damage values are 3.4x higher. So your suggestion would still make it too high. Remember, they're buffing base damage

Take a full status weapon with only status vs a crit weapon right now with only crit that crit weapon will definitely beat it in raw power alone using blood rush exsily hitting harder. The problem you have is when you mix the 2 and get too many multipliers thus hybrid weapon scaling to the extreme 

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5 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

But you're still locked into the repeated cycle of "shoot and attack with melee". High status chance on primary/secondary is not that deep of synergy. It isn't too different from Saryn's synergy with her 1 and 4 skills, which is just a damage buff. It isn't like Gara's 1 exploding her wall, or Umbra's howl allowing you to take full advantage of Skiajati's passive.

But... that is how Condition Overload is utilized. That is the synergy. At least at surface value with gunplay

Previously I used Wisp as an example in proc’ing status. Shock Mote for electric procs. Rad procs with Breach Surge. Using your Robotic Companion gun to proc other status ailments. That is the technical core in priming enemies with status ailments along with gunplay. And the “Lifted” state will also count as a status ailment.

Outside of just shooting your primary/secondary, you can proc a status ailment on enemies. Even bullet jumping can be utilized to proc status. That is the flexibility that Condition Overload, and it should not be capped at just 3 Status Effects as it will restrict that diverse gameplay to just swinging your melee weapon.

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Just now, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Even at 9procs with 30% is only 10x. Which even isnt that extreme 

For a mod it is, Primed bane mods multipplies final value by +55%. And considering how easy itt is to proc 9 times, it is still OP. We're having a Chroma's Vex Armor issue here.

Edited by HolySeraphin

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Le 18/10/2019 à 19:58, [DE]Bear a dit :

7 ) Goodbye Channeling,

There is a quest that uses the Channeling animation & sound, it's in The War Within.

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Just now, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Take a full status weapon with only status vs a crit weapon right now with only crit that crit weapon will definitely beat it in raw power alone using blood rush exsily hitting harder. The problem you have is when you mix the 2 and get too many multipliers thus hybrid weapon scaling to the extreme 

And that's why they're changing BloodRush too.

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7 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

For a mod it is, Primed bane mods add multipplies final value by +55%. And considering how easy itt is to proc 9 times, it is still OP. We're having a Chroma's Vex Armor issue here.

That’s under the assumption it is easy to proc 9 Status unfortunately. That’s just the best case scenario. Please consider the fallacy that is with using that argument when there are frames like Saryn, Octavia, Gara and Equinox that can map-wipe.

The appropriate consideration that it’s easy to proc 1-9+ Status if the situation deems it manageable.

Edited by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23

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I have some concerns and/or doubts of the current melee that are not being adressed by the second phase and would love to see implemented.

  • The first thing, is the viability of being a Tank for your teammates.  Some Shield & Sword weapons have special effects, and could use a lift up with the new system. Specially the Ack&Brunt combo with its augment (Electromagnetic Shielding), it has a very poor range for being effective at all. If range mods could affect this stat it would help a lot. I think this would be a nice step to creating a full-fledged tank role, specially now that we have more supportive auras (power donation and the one that recovers health on killing for allies).
  • Second, the transition from charged attacks to heavy attacks? I remember there was supossed to be a change with those.Wll charged attacks will still be a thing, or its mods (Empowered blades)  and special effects (I.e. sancti magistar charged attack) will be changing to heavy attacks? Or will these be for the new system in phase 3?
  • Third, the range of glaives. This is a quick one, just want the range numbers to be clear on what will be affected by range, will the "disc" diameter of glaives in flight will be affected? Or only the melee combos? And also, how does dual-weilding with glaive will be affected by this?
  • Fourth, the current stance system has some interesting effects that are kind of considered meta (such as slash procs for rapires stance). Will we keep those effects with the rework?
  • And fifth, the last, could we get a visual revamp of slam attacks for special weapons? I know we're getting updated visuals for slam attacks when using the combo counter. But weapons like the sibear have right now a small ice figure created with the slam, could we update that as well? Or amphis, which has an electric proc on slam attacks, a visual cue on special effects on slam attack would be great.

That's all for me. Hope someone reads this.Thanks!!!

Keep up the good work, looking forward to test the new system.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

That’s under the assumption it is easy to proc 9 Status unfortunately. That’s just the best case scenario. Please consider the fallacy that is with using that arguing when there are frames like Saryn, Octavia, Gara and Equinox that can map-wipe.

Lucky if u can get 2hits off

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Just now, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

That’s under the assumption it is easy to proc 9 Status unfortunately. That’s just the best case scenario. Please consider the fallacy that is with using that arguing when there are frames like Saryn, Octavia, Gara and Equinox that can map-wipe.

Very well, 6 procs it is. And why are pointing out these warframes? Are you suggesting that weapons with CO should rival DPS warframes?

Edited by HolySeraphin

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

I'll say make it 40% at 9procs that'll be 20x being close to on par with blood rush weapons entering the red crit territory 

Just for note:
Blood rush weapons get between 7~13x total damage multiplication on red crit (from critting itself). The few 3.0 crit damage weapons with organ shatter are at 15x. Unless its a weapon on harrow or with maiming strike (remembering that non-zaw n gram P weapons that have the crit to make it work have S#&$/less than half the base damage of a proper weapon or are 2m range) hitting 4 th tier crits means climbing up to 3.5 or even 4x combo and having sacrificial steel.

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You'd almost think some of the people replying are DE employees by the way they are trying to sell these changes so hard.

Edited by -AxHx-Vile
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19 hours ago, George_PPS said:

What about enemies level 1000-4000 and beyond? We may be losing the melee capability to kill these enemies if the new numbers are bad. 

You're dead either way from one hit unless you got a good harrow on your team so it doesn't matter how high your your combo counter or how good you claim too be, You would be just tickling the enemies due to how ridiculous armor scaling on enemies. 

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5 minutes ago, -AxHx-Vile said:

You'd almost think some of the people replying are DE employees by the way they are trying to sell these changes so hard.

the number 1 reason this game is not doing as well as it should is thanks to these white knights xd

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Melee 3.0 Phase 2 arrives...

Redeemer Prime: I'm still the best.

Melee riven disposition update 2 months from now: Redeemer from 1.15 to 0.00001

Redeemer Prime: I'm still the best.

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