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Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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15 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Speculation or have they said that?  I'm fully aware of how it's going to work with normal weapons, but casting the weapon means that you have to pick one style or another, or there are additional controls that will have to be used, like casting your EW, then locking or unlocking, which is STILL cumbersome to what is currently in place.  As long as they keep the system currently in place without adding additional steps, that will be fine.  DE seems to just love adding additional steps to things when they change stuff.

They said it on the Dev Stream Friday. Based on that information EWs do not go into "Melee Lock" by default. Lets clear up some things.

1) Phase 1 "Quick Melee", is the default melee behavior we currently have in Phase one, Shoot (LMB) and Melee (E) to quickly change between gun and sword.

2) Phase 1 "Melee Alone", is optional behavior set if you remove your Primary and Secondary weapon in the Arsenal, Melee Weapon Only.

In Phase 2 DE is simply adding the option to Hold down F (Switch weapon) to swap between "Quick Melee" and "Melee Alone" in mission, without having to strip your Primary & Secondary.

If you don't want to have "Melee Alone" behaviors, do not hold down F. Simple as that.

For Exalted Weapons they will behave according to whatever mode you're currently in. "Quick Melee" or Melee Alone".

Edited by Brasten
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1 minute ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Other games where the enemies take more hits to kill also don't kill you instantly at higher levels, or completely negate your powers, including your survivability with literally the brush of a bubble.  The game itself is not balanced, nerfing the players does not fix that, the enemies will still be unbalanced.  Getting one-shot by anything on the screen while taking a whole magazine to kill one enemy isn't "interesting" or "challenging" to me, it's frustrating and boring.

Yeah, I think that's honestly a fair complaint. DE has said that these melee changes will be the start of them finally getting around to fixing armor scaling, so it's possible that the balance issues with the later part of the game will be toned down.

1 minute ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

If both level 100 and level 1000 enemies can both exist in the game then you have to balance for both of them.

I don't know about that. Sure, they're technically accessible, but they represent such a small percentage of the level of enemy a player could face that it's kind of silly to weight them too heavily when considering the game's balance.

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21 minutes ago, Brasten said:

They said it on the Dev Stream Friday. Based on that information EWs do not go into "Melee Lock" by default. Lets clear up some things.

1) Phase 1 "Quick Melee", is the default melee behavior we currently have in Phase one, Shoot (LMB) and Melee (E) to quickly change between gun and sword.

2) Phase 1 "Melee Alone", is optional behavior set if you remove your Primary and Secondary weapon in the Arsenal, Melee Weapon Only.

In Phase 2 DE is simply adding the option to Hold down F (Switch weapon) to swap between "Quick Melee" and "Melee Alone" in mission, without having to strip your Primary & Secondary.

If you don't want to have "Melee Alone" behaviors, do not hold down F. Simple as that.

For Exalted Weapons they will behave according to whatever mode you're currently in. "Quick Melee" or Melee Alone".

What if I want to have manual blocking but still be able to quickly change between weapons? I don't want to spend an eternity holding down a button. The presented way is not good and ruins the phase 1 systems which are pretty great.

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21 minutes ago, Bioboygamer said:

I don't know about that. Sure, they're technically accessible, but they represent such a small percentage of the level of enemy a player could face that it's kind of silly to weight them too heavily when considering the game's balance.

While 1000 might be a bit much it would be nice if they'd test and showcase with something a little higher than 30.

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34 minutes ago, Bioboygamer said:

Because that's basically what the devs have said that they want? Because, to anyone not already neck-deep in the game, the star chart represents the entirety of the game? Because, in terms of assets and development, the star chart is essentially 90% of the game? Because having such a huge, huge, huge disparity between optimized and non optimized loadouts is absurd? Because there should be more than one or two meta-viable strategies in order to ensure that the supply and demand for certain mods isn't steeply inflated?

I could probably go on, but hopefully you can see where I'm going with this. 

Starchart level enemies only go into the 40s and 50s, until you get multiple waves in on an endless mission.  Why would you balance around that?  They can say they want to balance for those things all they want, but they literally put ESO into the game, which goes into sortie 2 and 3 level enemies by zone 8.  You cannot run to zone 8 (first rotation C.) with all gear being non-meta, consistently.  Most players cannot take a CC heavy frame like Nyx without any of the meta guns or a BR/MS or CO weapon on, and easily run to zone 8 with high efficiency at the end.  That's why metas EXIST in games.  Because maybe one guy out there can take a Nyx and a Harpak and straight wreck ESO.  Most players need a guiding hand to help them with the harder content and that hand IS the meta that all of you hate.  They built a game with several areas of play, where a lot of people are, that represent far more than 10% of the game; and those areas require good gear that I guarantee half of you have posted about nerfing before.  You can't build a game mode that requires a catchmoon (it's an example, so help me god) and then nerf the catchmoon.

And your opinion that the gap between optimized and non-optimized builds being absurd is also something I disagree with.  Yes, there is a large difference between this gun I just pulled out of my foundry and this gun that I've leveled up 7 times.  And considering the gap between a level 30 enemy and a level 100 enemy and a level 250 enemy (1 and a half hours into an arbi) is enormous, the gap in the weapons that can deal with them should be large as well.  If you're going to say "They'll fix that eventually"  then they should have fixed that first.  Don't nerf the players and leave the enemy standing there with a homing rocket launcher than can one shot our frames.  If everything eventually gets balanced down so that BR/MS and CO weapons and rivened Catchmoons aren't the only thing that can take enemies down fast enough so that they aren't one-shotting non-tank frames, then fine.  But those enemies are still in the game.

Your argument that there should be more than a couple of viable strategies is a good point, but doesn't hold water when you think the fix is to nerf things so that things that were not the meta because they were not good, become viable because the things that were the meta have been nerfed down to their level.  "If everything is garbage and does nothing to the enemy then it's all equally viable."  High level enemies exist in normal modes of play and there needs to be a way to deal with them faster than they can deal with us, considering we are vastly outnumbered.

I also genuinely don't appreciate the condescending tone you're taking with me.  You're stating your views as if they should be obvious, simply because you believe they're the right view, and you're talking down to me, as if I'm stupid for not agreeing with you.

 

31 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

lvl1000 exist just because people are able to push endless modes far beyond their intended levels with broken mods like Bloodrush and CO, unlike lvl100 which is quickly available in sorties/arbitrations. There's a reason why rotation repeats itself after 20min. 

Level 250 enemies exist an hour and a half into arbitrations.  And endless missions are still a thing.  You don't get kicked out.  These aspects of gameplay are a draw for many people, and judging by the number of complaints, I'd say it's a good number.  

Also, even at level 100ish, we're not dealing with just 1 or even 5 enemies.  There's 20+ enemies on screen that all know where you are and are coming right for you.  Being able to deal with the ones in front of you as fast as possible so that the next wave arriving right on top of them doesn't overwhelm you or your ability to CC is the only way some frames can survive.  Outside the current meta there is no reliably obtainable way to deal quickly with multiple level 100 enemies, if there was, it would be part of the meta.  Clarity for my last point here:  They shouldn't be balancing for fighting a couple of level 100 enemies.  The fact that you're fighting a map full of them and AI behavior sets them all to kamikaze zerg rush straight to you needs to be taken into account.

Edited by (XB1)TehChubbyDugan
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On ‎2019‎-‎10‎-‎18 at 7:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Condition Overload - Now stacks at a maximum of 3 Status Effects, however damage is being increased from 60% to a higher percent to balance the change. Final % to come.

But why? That was the only mod doing some damage on high lvl enemies. If its going to be for 3 status effects, then the appropriate dmg % should be a minimum of 120%, anything less would be useless for high lvl content.

Or even better, since its getting a change, why not implement on the mod to work only with the status effects that our melee has? Like for example, we have slash, impact, puncture and corrosive on our melee, and the target has all the status effects on it but the mod will only count slash, impact, puncture and corrosive that our melee has. This is my suggestion for this, or if this isn't possible, then the mod will need a serious % buff

Edited by M3JA
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I've read all 35 pages of this and im pretty discouraged that not a single other person seems worried about combo's that require no movement inputs to pull off in such a movement focused game like warframe. I really just can't see myself standing still to do a combo regardless of enemy level/mission type/frame/weapon/team comp etc. and i LIKE combos, i use the current systems combos all the time, and yes i care which ones do what and which ones have forced procs and extra hits. (i really wish different weapon types or stances had DIFFERENT combos, so you could master the combos for the weapon types you like the most and feel amazing at the game, instead of all stances having the same rather boring set of combos. i really was hoping that would be a focus point of melee 3.0). i like the idea of building a resource with light attacks and spending it with heavy attacks. It is a system i've seen in many games over the years and it's usually pretty decent.

i am not bothered by overall changes to weapons or mods whether they are nerfs or buffs, whatever i find to be most effective and still enjoyable to use i will use. i can't really understand why so many people are so upset before they even try this, or why others are singing praises to the death of spin2win before that's even proven to be the case. why would anyone be happy to see something they never use nerfed? why would i care what other players use or enjoy?

I am also a bit disappointed at the lack of response from dev's here, although i can see why given the tone of most of the comments in this thread.

 

 

i am going back to actually play the game now. everyone please enjoy your discussion. 🙂

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2 minutes ago, OPLoki said:

I've read all 35 pages of this and im pretty discouraged that not a single other person seems worried about combo's that require no movement inputs to pull off in such a movement focused game like warframe

You move, release 'up' key for Time needed to execute combo and start moving again. You are not stationary. And 'neutral combo' is designed to do concentrated damage oposite to 'up' combo witch is designed for mobility. Just try monkey boy.

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Alright, I'm going to go over this in parts. If I don't respond to something, it's simply because I don't have anything meaningful to say about it - I'm not just picking and choosing to "win" the argument.

6 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

That's why metas EXIST in games.  Because maybe one guy out there can take a Nyx and a Harpak and straight wreck ESO.  Most players need a guiding hand to help them with the harder content and that hand IS the meta that all of you hate.

The existence of a meta isn't something I have a problem with. My issue is that, at least as far as melee goes, there's maybe a handful of configurations that can be said to be 'viable', and many of them rely on the same set of mods. Sure, it's a meta, but it's not a healthy one. There should be at least a few ways of building that can get results that approach the ideal without having to rely on the same set of mods.

10 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

They built a game with several areas of play, where a lot of people are, that represent far more than 10% of the game; and those areas require good gear that I guarantee half of you have posted about nerfing before.  You can't build a game mode that requires a catchmoon (it's an example, so help me god) and then nerf the catchmoon.

I'll admit, I don't know too much about that - all I know is that DE is generally against the existence of non-reactive spin attack focused melee gameplay, as well as the existence of infinitely-scaling damage. I have no idea how that applies to things like arbitrations and sorties - I'm not a super-hardcore player - but I do know that things like multi-hour endless missions, while they are in the game, are not something that DE wants to focus on or enable. I'll concede that the enemy level in sorties and ESO should also be part of the balancing spectrum, but I do believe that they should be the upper end - balancing the game based on a theoretically infinite enemy level that most players won't interact with just seems silly to me.

18 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

And your opinion that the gap between optimized and non-optimized builds being absurd is also something I disagree with.  Yes, there is a large difference between this gun I just pulled out of my foundry and this gun that I've leveled up 7 times.  And considering the gap between a level 30 enemy and a level 100 enemy and a level 250 enemy (1 and a half hours into an arbi) is enormous, the gap in the weapons that can deal with them should be large as well.

I suppose I din't exactly make my point very clear - I'm not talking about the difference between a player just starting or midway through the star chart and a player doing arbitration. In that scenario, it makes sense that there's a disparity in power. What I'm talking about is the difference between a player who has, or is just about to, finish the star chart and a player doing arbitration. Both players have the same options open to them, in theory. The difference is that one player has a build capable of fighting enemies with levels in the triple digits, and the other doesn't. That's the disparity I'm talking about - you have the entire star chart to go from enemy level 1 to 50 or 60, and then the enemy level skyrockets, and the player's only option is to put together one of a few 'meta' builds, which likely look nothing like what they were playing with before. 

27 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

If you're going to say "They'll fix that eventually"  then they should have fixed that first.  Don't nerf the players and leave the enemy standing there with a homing rocket launcher than can one shot our frames.  If everything eventually gets balanced down so that BR/MS and CO weapons and rivened Catchmoons aren't the only thing that can take enemies down fast enough so that they aren't one-shotting non-tank frames, then fine.  But those enemies are still in the game.

Yeah, that's entirely fair. I guess it's hard for me to keep that in mind since I'm not yet at the point where that level of build synergy is mandatory. As I've mentioned a couple of times, though, it seems like the new melee system will also herald the start of DE finally fixing things like armor scaling, so hopefully that fixes some things. I suppose for someone who's at that point in the game, the changes have different ramifications than for someone like me.

31 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Your argument that there should be more than a couple of viable strategies is a good point, but doesn't hold water when you think the fix is to nerf things so that things that were not the meta because they were not good, become viable because the things that were the meta have been nerfed down to their level.  "If everything is garbage and does nothing to the enemy then it's all equally viable."  High level enemies exist in normal modes of play and there needs to be a way to deal with them faster than they can deal with us, considering we are vastly outnumbered.

Again, fair. My hope is that these changes will bring things to a point where the prior one or two unbeatable strategies are still better than the old way of doing things, but also closer to the next best strategies. We don't know exactly what the numbers will look like, and this isn't even the end of the melee rework - there's still rage mode and anything that comes with it to consider. After all, this is the reason they're asking for our feedback - to figure out what's important and what's not, what should and shouldn't be kept. 

35 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

I also genuinely don't appreciate the condescending tone you're taking with me.  You're stating your views as if they should be obvious, simply because you believe they're the right view, and you're talking down to me, as if I'm stupid for not agreeing with you.

I am deeply, genuinely sorry for that. I've seen so many responses that ignore the aims and goals that DE has stated, that don't bother reading through the changes before lashing out, and so on, that I suppose I just assumed that you were no exception. Again, I'm so very sorry for that.

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Everything looks absolutely phenomenal.

However, you should find a different way to reintroduce blocking without adding sword alone back in. If you do as you announced, the only difference in functionality between quick melee and sword alone would be the ability to block, which in my opinion would just be redundant and confusing, and defeat the purpose of fluidity of the previous iteration of the system. One way to solve the issue might be this: whenever melee is out, the aim button starts the block animation. In order to switch back to aiming your gun, you double tap aim. The next possible step could be allowing through an opt-in option in the menu to double tap aim when holding a ranged weapon to directly flow into melee block, thus allowing the player full and fluid access to every single one of their offensive and defensive options, from ranged to close quarters. In my opinion this very small change would unlock the full potential of warframe's combat, and I truly hope you consider my proposal. Keep improving this wonderful game! 

Edited by (XB1)ShonFr0st
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On 2019-10-18 at 7:09 PM, tekmansam said:

The very idea that any weapon to be considered to be viable has to be centered around these mods is textbook evidence for a needed nerf.  It is game balance 101.

Not anymore than every weapon needing Pressure Point is evidence, because much like Pressure Point, CO and BR are core-strength account upgrades that push new weapons into their full-power spaces and get players spending forma.  They are the multishot mods for melee, but they do that job better because they have systems to get their bonus instead of just "more bullets".  Removing them doesn't make melee more interesting to build, it makes it less interesting to play.

On 2019-10-18 at 7:17 PM, tekmansam said:

At that point, why not just cut the number of slots down to 5 or 6 and build those statistics in by default?

Because acquiring and ranking up those mods is how our accounts grow and mature.  It works like that throughout the game.

I still remember that first Blood Rush drop, where my crit melees became adults (and all cried out for forma...).  That was a bigger moment than many in the game.  Just bumping Serration up to max isn't a game-changer like that.

Edited by TyrianMollusk
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Remember them saying something about 12 pages of google docs with all the info of this upcoming update any idea where to find it want to look through it.

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4 minutes ago, Jeffry480 said:

Remember them saying something about 12 pages of google docs with all the info of this upcoming update any idea where to find it want to look through it.

That's the post at the beginning of this thread.  Their page counts are always like middle schoolers turning in reports.

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15 minutes ago, TyrianMollusk said:

Not anymore than every weapon needing Pressure Point is evidence, because much like Pressure Point, CO and BR are core-strength account upgrades that push new weapons into their full-power spaces and get players spending forma.  They are the multishot mods for melee, but they do that job better because they have systems to get their bonus instead of just "more bullets".  Removing them doesn't make melee more interesting to build, it makes it less interesting to play.

Because acquiring and ranking up those mods is how our accounts grow and mature.  It works like that throughout the game.

They could just be universal, account-bound "mods" that you still sink Endo and credits into, but simply apply to all relevant weapons instead of needing to be slotted.

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26 minutes ago, Bioboygamer said:

I've seen so many responses that ignore the aims and goals that DE has stated, that don't bother reading through the changes before lashing out, and so on, that I suppose I just assumed that you were no exception. Again, I'm so very sorry for that.

No, I get exactly where DE is going with this.  A Crowd control heavy, new player balanced, slower game.  They cannot balance for that while leaving literally everything after starchart the way that it is because it will become even more of a mess than it currently is.

I just got out of an hour long arbitration against infested.  Drones, and heavy units stopped being "deal-able-with" using my guns (a rivened, 5 forma attica that I brought because I had the 300% damage buff for it, and a 5 forma, rivened catchmoon where the riven is just multishot and flight speed, so mostly utility) after about 45 minutes.  Both were hitting for 5 digit damage, consistently.  Even my non-meta Attica was hitting for over 80k on crits because there was a rhino on the team.  They stopped working for heavies 45ish minutes in.  By "deal-able-with" I don't mean they were unkillable.  I mean that killing them took long enough that it allowed the enemies those drones and heavy units were supporting to swarm me or my teammates.  It took enough ammo to kill them that by the time they were down and I could focus on the trash swarming me, I had to reload, putting me out of ammo and surrounded or on the run.  I'm not a bad player either, I had 54% of team damage and nearly 40% of the kills, only 20% of which were melee.  Kill speed matters greatly here, as does mobility.  When my guns slowed down, I switched to my guandao.  3 primed mods, berserker, blood rush and a riven that is basically maiming strike with added combo duration.  The option at this point, since my team was starting to go down around the time my guns slowed down, was either bail, or switch up to the melee meta stick I was carrying.  Without building combo counter for the first 45 minutes, this "OP" meta build allowed us to continue to 55 minutes, until my entire team went down and I had to extract.  If there's supposed to be a hard cut off where players aren't supposed to continue on, then yes, it's OP.  But if you're to get past that point, if they're going to not forget about the portion of their community that likes endurance running, testing build limits, and so forth, then that level of damage and power is absolutely necessary.  To nerf the player first is fixing the symptom, not the issue.  Enemy scaling, even non-grineer enemies, is the reason the meta exists.  Without a farm frame, we barely kept life support up using the towers, and that was with meta kill speed.  Any slower, or slightly worse RNG on the life support drops and we would have been forced out before we even hit rotation C.

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I love this thread so many cry babies thats keeping my popcorn salty 🍿

all jokes aside just wait until the final stats are shown and update goes live then we will see what the future holds for melee.

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I'll admit i didn't read all 35 pages of comments so some of what i'll write here may have been disscussed here.

The update looks awesome, make no mistake i really like what i saw and read in Dev's post, that being said i have a few concerns and inquiries.

Being in melee range means you will get hit, a whole lot more that if you stick to your gun. The combos i've seen looks really cool but along with the mod changes i'm afraid they will greatly increase the kill time and along with it the time you will be shot at which may make some squishy frames really bad at melee. 

Will abilities that tie to melee will also be looked at (Atlas and Khora's 1'st for example) as they directly benefit from melee mods?

Will there be new weapons introduced to underrepresented categories? Warfans and 2h nikanas only have 1 weapon in them 

Will there be changes to simulacrum? I'd like to try out the new combos without worrying that i or my target will fall of the edge (Ty).

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On 2019-10-18 at 7:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

we want to make sure that it is not just a cool addition, but that it has roots in Warframes lore, and a story behind it

Yes please, I love lore based stuff. I really enjoyed reading the codex entry for Rhino prime and wouldn't mind finding fragments and more stories of other warframes. Lore hunting is awesome! I know, I know, this is about the rage mode, but it reminded my of the Rhino story^^

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53 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

No, I get exactly where DE is going with this.  A Crowd control heavy, new player balanced, slower game.  They cannot balance for that while leaving literally everything after starchart the way that it is because it will become even more of a mess than it currently is.

I just got out of an hour long arbitration against infested.  Drones, and heavy units stopped being "deal-able-with" using my guns (a rivened, 5 forma attica that I brought because I had the 300% damage buff for it, and a 5 forma, rivened catchmoon where the riven is just multishot and flight speed, so mostly utility) after about 45 minutes.  Both were hitting for 5 digit damage, consistently.  Even my non-meta Attica was hitting for over 80k on crits because there was a rhino on the team.  They stopped working for heavies 45ish minutes in.  By "deal-able-with" I don't mean they were unkillable.  I mean that killing them took long enough that it allowed the enemies those drones and heavy units were supporting to swarm me or my teammates.  It took enough ammo to kill them that by the time they were down and I could focus on the trash swarming me, I had to reload, putting me out of ammo and surrounded or on the run.  I'm not a bad player either, I had 54% of team damage and nearly 40% of the kills, only 20% of which were melee.  Kill speed matters greatly here, as does mobility.  When my guns slowed down, I switched to my guandao.  3 primed mods, berserker, blood rush and a riven that is basically maiming strike with added combo duration.  The option at this point, since my team was starting to go down around the time my guns slowed down, was either bail, or switch up to the melee meta stick I was carrying.  Without building combo counter for the first 45 minutes, this "OP" meta build allowed us to continue to 55 minutes, until my entire team went down and I had to extract.  If there's supposed to be a hard cut off where players aren't supposed to continue on, then yes, it's OP.  But if you're to get past that point, if they're going to not forget about the portion of their community that likes endurance running, testing build limits, and so forth, then that level of damage and power is absolutely necessary.  To nerf the player first is fixing the symptom, not the issue.  Enemy scaling, even non-grineer enemies, is the reason the meta exists.  Without a farm frame, we barely kept life support up using the towers, and that was with meta kill speed.  Any slower, or slightly worse RNG on the life support drops and we would have been forced out before we even hit rotation C.

Yeah, see, this give me a lot better context, and I now understand a lot better why these melee changes are causing the reaction they are. I suppose the crux of the matter is that, just from what I've heard about DE's stance on this, they do want there to eventually be a cutoff point for 'endless' modes. I'm not opposed to that, but I understand that there are certainly plenty of players who are, and I can't really say that I understand all this well enough to be certain about which view is correct. 

All I can really say is that I do think that the players who do long, high level endless mission runs are in the minority - albeit a loud and experienced minority, comprised of a significant number of veterans and players who have been supporting and playing Warframe for a long time - certainly longer than I have. It's been said before that, intended by the devs or not, these infinitely-scaling endless missions are the de facto 'endgame' of Warframe at the moment - in which case, the desire to keep the ability to play that hyper-difficult game mode is very understandable. In the absence of a more deliberately-designed endgame, it's only logical that enfranchised players would want to keep playing that content. 

Ultimately, it seems to me to be an issue created by the inherent weirdness of exponential, uncapped scaling, and continued and exacerbated by an unfortunate vicious cycle in the playerbase. We can't nerf the most effective strategies because it would leave players unable to survive the only 'endgame' content in the game, but we can't introduce new end-game content because the most effective strategies will tear through it in the span of a week or so. Buffing weaker weapons and strategies prompts outrage at the 'casualification' of the game, and introducing challenge by removing both the optimal strategies and the content it's necessary for would essentially mean excising the only 'endgame' we have. 

DE isn't willing to design content for 500+ enemy levels because they don't want to create gameplay that's only accessible for those who follow the meta - they want it to be potentially completeable given a high enough general quality of mods and gear, not dependent on having one specific combination. The way things are now, there's no real way for DE to make content that veterans will find challenging without essentially making it appear to be, if not actually be, comically impossible to anyone who isn't a diehard number-cruncher and meta build connoisseur. The best way to deal with that would probably be to phase out the most egregiously powerful combinations and effects, shortly before putting a hard cap on scaling content and introducing something new for veteran players to sink their teeth into. Then, with the problem resolved for as long as that new content lasts, they could find a way to fix endless missions so that they preserve an endlessly-escalating level of challenge without mandating the existence of builds that dwarf everything else in the game.

Of course, I'm no professional game designer, so I'm sure there's all sorts of holes and flaws in my reasoning for all this, but that's my perspective on it, at least. It's not about DE caring or not caring about casuals or veterans or whatever - it's about trying to balance a system that's got a lot of inbuilt, fundamentally unbalanced factors. To fix it, there are likely going to be things people enjoy that end up being changed or even gutted - things enjoyed by people on either end of the scale - but ultimately, if handled correctly, it should end with something much more balanced, enjoyable, and successful long-term.

But, again, that's just my view on it.

Edited by Bioboygamer
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1 hour ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

I love this thread so many cry babies thats keeping my popcorn salty 🍿

all jokes aside just wait until the final stats are shown and update goes live then we will see what the future holds for melee.

:crylaugh: Tbf players all already at the edge of their insanity. The whines we hear are just a coping mechanism to still hold on to whatever fond memories we have. One click away from playing "another game" but still clinging to a beautiful nostalgia only to try the 'other game' and feel empty after the campaign stops and rant about the next thing, a.k.a. pvp. After a frustrating deliberation with oneself, download auto-play clicker mobile game, drive to the nearest strip club and waste life away till 3 a.m.  Change is a b*tch until it hits you, then it's a truck.

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There's another potential downside to these nerfs.  Unless they truly will be just "changes" and not super hard nerfs, Focus farming is going to take a huge hit for those in the know.

Of all the different methods for focus farming, the only one that is both fast, and not time-gated is the Banshee silence build.  ESO will get you about the same amount of focus for a zone 8 run as will 1-2 decent Banshee silence runs on Adaro, and that's because of the stealth affinity multiplier.  ESO wave 8 takes 20ish minutes, and you can't move any faster than that by nature of the game mode.  You can do an Adaro run in less than 5.  If your cat cooperates and all your runs are fairly decent (ESO map rotations can be total crap and barely worth farming some weeks.) you can cap your focus at max MR in less than 20 minutes.  This method absolutely depends on a BR/MS weapon with good range.  It depends on the systems currently in place.  Without this, it's back to spending an hour of your potentially limited playtime trying to cap focus, or praying it's night on Cetus when you can play so that you can do a tricap, IF you can find a decent team.  Focus is already a miserable slog, any nerf to this farm method is only going to make it that much worse.

There are so many systems that needed fixes before we got hard melee nerfs.  The meta exists because of the game mechanics.   Changing the meta by nerfing the players doesn't fix the things that created that meta in the first place.  I can't help but feel like this is going to end very poorly for a lot of us.

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Il y a 8 heures, -AxHx-Vile a dit :

You'd almost think some of the people replying are DE employees by the way they are trying to sell these changes so hard.

I think they are.
 
Now! What level of survival, defensa, arbitrajes, interrupción will we reach? lv 125 or 100, or lower still?
The animations are perfect, beautiful!
But you really needed to damage so much the mods and possibly melee ?
I think the D.E forgot that this game is very dynamic, the enemies come out under the stones.Concept of this game were space ninjas or characters with swords, daggers and more melee weapons.
I don't know what's happening in D.E. (Damage, Leave unusable weapons or warframes) That some mods needed improvements? Yes!
Do You don't think rivens is the misfortune of warframe? I think so.
I prefer to erase the melee rivens and don't damage so many good mods.( Surely some players cannot build without rivens) xd
Now the main feature of warframe is the constant nerfs.
I honestly don't know what to expect from D.E from here on out.
Edited by Mabc05

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il y a une heure, Lorechill a dit :

:crylaugh: Tbf players all already at the edge of their insanity. The whines we hear are just a coping mechanism to still hold on to whatever fond memories we have. One click away from playing "another game" but still clinging to a beautiful nostalgia only to try the 'other game' and feel empty after the campaign stops and rant about the next thing, a.k.a. pvp. After a frustrating deliberation with oneself, download auto-play clicker mobile game, drive to the nearest strip club and waste life away till 3 a.m.  Change is a b*tch until it hits you, then it's a truck.

We are two now 😜

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I quit reading comments on page 13-14, and I honestly do not get this fanbase at all. After surfing the forums a few times I have found; the game is either too Fing easy or too Fing hard, there is no middle ground.

Same with this update, its either not enough nerf or OMG I can't get a kill count that rivals Hitler or Stalin in an hour.

I really just want some cleaner animations for weapon strikes. Why is the stealth kill animation with a pole-arm hitting with the blunt end and not the cleave the bad guy end is a mystery to me. I like the idea of better movement with some melee weapons to keep the fluid nature of the game. As it reminds me of the Dynasty Warriors games, but in space and with guns where you just have to fight your way thru hundreds of henchmen to go punch the general in the face.

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