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Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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3 hours ago, GreyEnneract said:

I see this more as a problem of most procs in and of themselves not being powerful enough.
If they were, the 6 procs in your examples would be the bonus of a high status chance weapon.
But currently: Cold, Toxin, Electric, Gas, Blast, Magnetic, Radiation, Impact, Puncture, (and Void) aren't great and don't scale.
Honestly the Heat Proc buff coming in the next update is nearly as important as this melee rework, and is a step in the right direction.
 

Did I just read this correctly? Gas doesn’t scale? What is this information?

Gas is the one status ailment that trip dips when calculating damage, so it has scaleability.

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1 hour ago, (NSW)zook-pl said:

Guys you speak a lot of about high level content and need of CO to do it.

But you know for new player getting CO is road thru hell. You need have 5k kills of specific enemy witch exist only on one planet and stop to spawn if you stay in mission to long. To have statistical means of except to drop it once. I don't think CO is good way...

Or you can be like me when Condition Overload was first introduced and get it first try via transmutation. ‘-‘

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Did I just read this correctly? Gas doesn’t scale? What is this information?

Gas is the one status ailment that trip dips when calculating damage, so it has scaleability.

The real stealth gas days are over.
Gas truly scaling would have it on an even higher pedestal than Slash, as it can be applied to every weapon.
Its current use is just for niche cases, mostly with Mag and generally the Zenistar.
 

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7 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Or you can be like me when Condition Overload was first introduced and get it first try via transmutation. ‘-‘

Unrelated, but GL getting Split Flights.

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3 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

The real stealth gas days are over.
Gas truly scaling would have it on an even higher pedestal than Slash, as it can be applied to every weapon.
Its current use is just for niche cases, mostly with Mag and generally the Zenistar.
 

Agreed, it doesn’t have the (iirc) the 520x stealth multiplier it used to have and it’s capped to 8x. But how Gas is used now is that it has the unique properties of proc’ing Toxin as well, thereby triple-dipping in damage calculations.

edit: And yes, when u25.8.2 lands on consoles I’ll be transmuting like crazy unless it gets patched otherwise. The transmuting sweat factory is always a tiring process. lol

Edited by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23
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12 hours ago, uxx0 said:

Personally I feel like the rework itself is gonna be fine - if you ignore what we already have. My guess is that DE might continue reigning in our firepower with these kinds of reworks to be able to design actually challenging content for us. In order for content to be challenging it'd have to be dangerous to us after all, which they would achieve by upping the TTK on enemies. The only problem to this I see: Can you do the same reworks for the rest of our arsenal (primaries, secondaries, frames, ...) within reasonable time? Or is there gonna be a Damage 2.0? What about the work on armor scaling they mentioned?

Right now, looking at melee 3.0 in a vacuum just isn't very helpful. Some stuff like the lifted status seems weird to me, because it's already established that CC has not been viable in this game for a while. Most enemies will probably die before even getting a lifted proc. Hence my thoughts of DE potentially wanting to do something about that.

So again, melee 3.0 in context of what we already have is probably just a nerf to melee. We'll need to see the actual numbers to judge about that. Melee 3.0 in context of what might come, may be just right. And this is the piece of information we're currently missing and which might not be known even to DE themselves.

The thing is people wouldnt complain so much if DE actually shown effort to do something about scaling because I do agree that we are too over powered at lower levels(which also includes sorties) but if you try something higher level you quickly reach point that this broken amount of damage becomes  necessity, for example during disruption event me and some people were trying to get gold trophy for our clans, we got best builds for our Plague Kripath zaws and all that, until around 9000 points it was going pretty easy, each being able to easily solo disruption target but soon after that we reached point where we needed WHOLE team to take down ONE disruption target, and by the time we were at 18000 points whole team had to hit one target for over 10 seconds,which taken HUGE amount of procs to take down, enemies were level 320+, I know 10 seconds doesnt seem much but remember enemy is trying to reach terminal, so you HAVE to immobilze demolyst or it would be IMPOSSIBLE to complete, and most CC abilities doesnt work on it...

melee nerfs are only ok IF enemies scaling is fixed too, sadly I dont see anywhere it being mentioned

Edited by Culaio
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Just now, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Agreed, it doesn’t have the (iirc) the 520x stealth multiplier it used to have and it’s capped to 8x. But how Gas is used now is that it has the unique properties of proc’ing Toxin as well, thereby triple-dipping in damage calculations

It feels gimped by design though, having it not increase in damage with the heat mods needed to create it, and just being an AoE toxin proc when it comes down to it.
I can see Heat easily surpassing Gas with its rework, as it will melt armor. Which is Gas' weakness (like almost everything else), while also having new self-scalability.
Using it just to count as 2 procs for CO isn't enough for me personally.

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While I am very big on spin to win weapons and the play style I also like using weapons like tekko, ninkondi or other shorter range weapons. For me spin to win is really fun and its not there to make every other melee weapon useless. I understand why you guys would want to nerf it but it really is a playstyle I enjoy. I think spin to win should still be a viable option while also bring all other melee weapons viable. 

So I just hope you're not planning on killing off the spin to win because for me it's not there to be the most efficient and boring way to melee.

Anyways, I'm excited for melee phase 2 and I'll have to see for myself what happens.

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24 minutes ago, Xydeth said:

so what do u expect me to reply when u basically quote me with different words ?

You would rather have immediate satisfaction in the dps department than plan your assault ahead of time?

Granted, I didn’t want to ask you that question considering you yourself stated that you’re not an endurance runner. 

However, the overall substance of the argument I’ve made since entering this thread is that we shouldn’t put aside the executive properties of Condition Overload is now with an uncapped Status Effects threshold in favor of one where we can easily achieve heightened damage just from landing several melee attacks onto the enemy within a capsulated 3 Status Effects threshold. It’ll just dumb down gameplay.

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37 minutes ago, Culaio said:

The thing is people wouldnt complain so much if DE actually shown effort to do something about scaling because I do agree that we are too over powered at lower levels(which also includes sorties) but if you try something higher level you quickly reach point that this broken amount of damage becomes  necessity, for example during disruption event me and some people were trying to get gold trophy for our clans, we got best builds for our Plague Kripath zaws and all that, until around 9000 points it was going pretty easy, each being able to easily solo disruption target but soon after that we reached point where we needed WHOLE team to take down ONE disruption target, and by the time we were at 18000 points whole team had to hit one target for over 10 seconds,which taken HUGE amount of procs to take down, enemies were level 320+, I know 10 seconds doesnt seem much but remember enemy is trying to reach terminal, so you HAVE to immobilze demolyst or it would be IMPOSSIBLE to complete, and most CC abilities doesnt work on it...

melee nerfs are only ok IF enemies scaling is fixed too, sadly I dont see anywhere it being mentioned

No melee or CC needed. Top score used Magus Lockdown for clearing trash and Vigorous Swap Oberon 1 for Demolysts. Both of which are scaling. That's why I said the melee rework by itself doesn't make a lot of sense. I used a different strat though and got 84k points easy (level cap reached about half way in...). One thing you're missing: Everyone gets the nerf. So future Operations are gonna be business as usual, since everyone is on the same power level. Even Sorties aren't hard. It's at level 300+ where you need to be concerned about weapon damage. Which we currently don't have, except maybe Arbitration. Though I don't consider endless missions to be endgame. Especially since you can just bug the drones to be out of map.

I'd be very salty if DE only wants to do this rework for the sake of "muh weapon diversity". That'd be the same as going in with no grand plan at all. So really all I'm hoping for is that they use this opportunity think over how they can make content more challenging, other than trying to stay awake for more than 6 hours straight.

Edited by uxx0

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4 minutes ago, uxx0 said:

No melee or CC needed. Top score used Magus Lockdown for clearing trash and Vigorous Swap Oberon 1 for Demolysts. Both of which are scaling. So in a way you're right. I used a different strat and got 84k points easy (level cap reached about half way in...). One thing you're missing: Everyone gets the nerf. So future Operations are gonna be business as usual, since everyone is on the same power level. Even Sorties aren't hard. It's at level 300+ where you need to be concerned about weapon damage. Which we currently don't have, except maybe Arbitration. Though I don't consider endless missions to be endgame. Especially since you can just bug the drones to be out of map.

I'd be very salty if DE only wants to do this rework for the sake of "muh weapon diversity". That'd be the same as going in with no grand plan at all. So really all I'm hoping for is that they use this opportunity think over how they can make content more challenging, other than trying to stay awake for more than 6 hours straight.

when I did this I didnt know about this type of methods, after I found out I had no interest in going back to event I hated it so much.

But yeah scaling is huge problem in game, its fine for a while after which is gets bonkers, its sole reason why players are obsesed with warframe powers having some type of scaling to match enemy scaling, its also reason why I am worried about changes to combo counter in phase 2 of the rework, hope those changes will still keep scaling of melee weapons from combos, and if heavy attack will eat the combo multiplier I will never use it, other then low level missions, where I wont need to use it in the first place...

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2 hours ago, Sasuda said:

Sorry, I think you may have missed what I'm trying to say. I don't care if it's nerfed I'm not saying "Leave Maiming Strike & Blood RushALONE!". I think it needs changes but I think it doesn't need to be turned into just another plain white slice of bread in the loaf. It is OP, it's one of the only ways building up a combo meter ever felt worthwhile though too. But this OP power with combo meter is exclusively because Blood Rush & Maiming Strike combine in a bizarre way. That being Blood Rush multiplying on top of maiming strike. If maiming strike was additive after Blood Rush instead, it wouldn't be OP at all. Not for how hard it is to get or just as a mod. Strong but not OP. There's no reason it's too OP if it worked properly.

^ This is a sentiment I agree with. The CC formula doesn't really need to change much. Change the multiplier from combo damage to combo tier and add absolute bonuses after modded damage is multiplied by Blood Rush. The Gladiator set bonus has already been reduced so Blood Rush bonus could just be lowered to about 90% to adjust for tier replacing multiplier. I can't see BR bonus being applied somewhere else in the formula because it makes the CC bonus higher.

Quick maths in Spoiler window

Spoiler

# Testing max BR values of 30% and 60% per Combo Tier applied to modded CC

  [.25 * (1 + 0.6 + ([2 + 1] * .3))] = .25 * 2.5 = 0.625
  [.25 * (1 + 0.6 + ([2 + 1] * .6))] = .25 * 3.4 = 0.85

# Settling on BR value of 90% applied to modded CC compared to current CC formula using 2x Combo multiplier

  [.25 * (1 + 0.6 + ([2 + 1] * .9))] = .25 * 4.3 = 1.075
  (.25 * (1 + 0.6)) * (1 + (2 * 1.65)) = 0.25 * 1.6 * 4.3 = 1.72

# Settling on BR value of 90% applied to modded CC compared to current CC formula using 3x Combo multiplier

  [.25 * (1 + 0.6 + ([4 + 1] * .9))] = .25 * 6.1 = 1.525
  (.25 * (1 + 0.6)) * (1 + (3 * 1.65)) = 0.25 * 1.6 * 5.95 = 2.38

# Comparing BR applied with CC mods to BR applied as it currently is. Adding absolute increases last in both cases.

[(Atterax * (1 + Max Sacrificial Steel + Max True Punishment + ([Combo Tier + 1] * Max Blood Rush)) * (1 + ([Combo Tier + 1] * Full Gladiator Set)] + (Max Maiming Strike + Cat's Eye + Arcane Avenger)

  [.25 * (1 + 1.1 + .4 + ([4 + 1] * .9))] * (1 + ([4 + 1] * .6)) + (.9 + .6 + .3) =  .25 * 7 * 3.5 + 1.8 = 7.925 (793%)

  (.25 * (1 + 1.1 + .4) * (1 + ([4 + 1] * [.9 + .6]) + (.9 + .6 + .3) =  .25 * 2.5 * 8.5 + 1.8 = 7.1125 (711%)

# BR could be capped at 450% bonus CC at Combo Tier 3 (current 3x multiplier). 711% seems like a lot, but the investment is pretty significant. In addition, this is not sustained since Arcane Avenger and Cat's Eye are not always up.

BR mod stats in Spoiler window below.

Spoiler

Blood Rush Combo Counter
Rank Crit Chance Cost Tier      
0 40 6 0 30 60 90
1 50 7 1 60 120 180
2 60 8 2 90 180 270
3 70 9 3 120 240 360
4 80 10 4 150 300 450
5 90 11        

 

Maiming Strike change proposal

Asserting that Maiming Strike max additive value doesn't really need to be changed if it is applied at the end with other absolute increases, I do think it could use a function change. I think it should work like Primal Rage augment for Primal Fury. Something akin to the following:

Maiming Strike - Slide Attack increases Critical Hit Chance by x% per enemy hit up to a max of y%. The increase decays by 1% per second.

Where x = 9% and y = 90% at max value. Mod stats example in Spoiler window.

Spoiler

Maiming Strike
Rank Crit Chance per enemy hit Max Crit Bonus Cost
0 4 40 2
1 5 50 3
2 6 60 4
3 7 70 5
4 8 80 6
5 9 90 7

 

Condition Overload

I agree with CO needing a nerf since that exponential scaling leads to some pretty extreme multipliers with a lot of status stacking.  I don't agree with a cap of three status effects. It just makes the "art" of stacking statuses negligible which takes away from the mods unique mechanics. I think a cap of six is better. DE can adjust the effect percentage to any comparable or slightly nerfed value relative to current CO.

  • 26% at 6 is about the same as 60% at 3
  • 37% at 6 is about the same as 60% at 4
  • 48% at 6 is about the same as 60% at 5

My counter thoughts to a few sentiments expressed throughout the thread regarding (1) enemies dying before more than a few statuses are applied and  (2) mandatory mods in weapon builds.

  1. I don't think a mod like CO is intended to combat these types of enemies. If they can be killed efficiently before more than 2-3 statuses are applied with CO, they can likely be killed without CO (just less efficiently). This eludes to my second feeling.
  2. Freedom of choice in the form of build diversity is a good sentiment, but if players were equipping any mods other than higher damage to produce faster kill efficiency, DE wouldn't be adding Exilus slots to weapons to encourage utility mod use. I know this seems like the same tired argument to suppress change which is isn't. I'm just advocating for moderate change.

In addition, balance should  try to be about equitable compromise. The boost in base damage melee weapons are receiving shouldn't be used to compensate for loss of Combo multiplier, BR, CO, and MS. A balanced exchange should be more "quid pro quo." 

I personally think CO should go the 48% at 6 statuses route. I propose any player currently with CO should have it replaced with a new, non-fused rank 10 version of CO. If you're willing to invest 30k endo and 1.4 mil credits in a mod with a .02% to .03% drop rate with a high max mod cost (16), I don't think a cap of a 10x modifier at 6 status effects is unreasonable.

Mod stats example in Spoiler window below. It only increments 4% per rank, but since it's exponential growth, this is 8.9x at rank 9 and 10.5x at rank 10 so decent increments.

Spoiler

Condition Overload
Rank Effect Cost
0 8 6
1 12 7
2 16 8
3 20 9
4 24 10
5 28 11
6 32 12
7 36 13
8 40 14
9 44 15
10 48 16

 

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4 hours ago, Xydeth said:

ur only seeing condition overload but totally forget how valuable some proccs are. condition overload alone wont do anything without high slash and/or multiple corrosive proccs vs a heavily armored enemy after a certain level. the only enemy against which u can really win with only high damage are the infested as long as u focus ancients and leeches later.

ur view is way too clawed to CO. the content where damage alone suffices is below lv 70 but against such enemies u dont even need CO to begin with...

Not really you can easily kill lvl 100-200 corrupted gunner w\o any slash and corrosive procs.

And of course it will help against lvl 70 armored targets as well.

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I just want my character to be more controllable during combo! It's pretty hard to land a hit when combo sends me flying 10 meters past enemies.

Also for fun's sake remove that strike before you launch a Glave! Why is it even there?

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22 hours ago, HolySeraphin said:

And Bloodrush is broken too, I said it like 3 times now. Bloodrush, CO, and Maiming Strike scale a lot compared to any other mod,...

Maybe you need to say it a few more times before it registers, if it ever does. 🙂

To me, the melee do-over is quite logical. DE is trying to broaden the melee part of the game, which translates into making more weapons and more mods viable to use. The ONLY way to do that is to break the existing deadlock of Bloodrush, Condition Overload and Maiming Strike. And the only way to do that is to "nerf" them down to levels where they are not in the "must use" category anymore.

The goal (and the hope, presumably) is that this in turn will break the meta deadlock some weapons have on the melee scene, as this deadlock is partly (or mostly) related to Bloodrush, Condition Overload and Maiming Strike. It is also related to the differences of base damage on some weapons, which is ridiculously low on many weapons but will now be fixed.

So to me, a lot of the discussion in this thread seems to take place in an alternate universe where Bloodrush, CO and Maiming Strike are still the undisputed kings of melee, just maybe a little bit nerfed. I do not think that is what DE is aiming at, at all. In the really real world, that is. Where the power of these three mods, by simple logic, has to be broken so that other mods and more weapons can flourish. The melee change that is coming is not a "re-balancing fix", it is a tectonic change aimed at breaking the current chains locking down melee combat.

Edited by Graavarg
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have to ask...are the base melee mods, like Fury, Pressure Point, Spoil Strike even, or the ones I'm most curious/eager about...True Steel and Melee Prowess...going to be touched on at all with this update? I mean you're adjusting how the current 'meta' mods like BLood rush affect crit chance, is there any chance that True Steel will get a buff to help compensate for the reduction to Blood Rush? Or a buff to Melee Prowess to give us more options beyond using the dual stat elemental mods? Or even just changing *how* these mods apply their bonuses(like making additive perhaps?) would suffice, imo.

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8 hours ago, Xydeth said:

*snip*

now lets also not forget how broken COs math is, its not on blood rush level but its still silly. we were also very fine before CO release so having it grant less stacks but more dmg per stack is not a big deal unless u really think those huge pointless numbers u can achieve with it actually mean something.

I was here before maiming strike, blood rush, and condition overload actually made melee viable. Nobody used melee for anything but mobility, goofing off and playing non seriously or against very low level star chart enemies, or for fashion. Then they replaced zoren coptering with bullet jumping, and that got rid of using it for mobility, leaving only the last two. There was no point in the game where you weren't better off using guns. So, if they nerf those three things badly enough I can totally see it returning to the same situation. We've been there before, after all. Saying we were very fine before CO was added just doesn't really represent how non-viable melee spent a good long while being.

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vor 44 Minuten schrieb RedDirtTrooper:

I was here before maiming strike, blood rush, and condition overload actually made melee viable. Nobody used melee for anything but mobility, goofing off and playing non seriously or against very low level star chart enemies, or for fashion. Then they replaced zoren coptering with bullet jumping, and that got rid of using it for mobility, leaving only the last two. There was no point in the game where you weren't better off using guns. So, if they nerf those three things badly enough I can totally see it returning to the same situation. We've been there before, after all. Saying we were very fine before CO was added just doesn't really represent how non-viable melee spent a good long while being.

ur right about the time when we coptered, but i dont recall melee being useless. maybe my memeory is off...thats a really long time ago so maybe u remember it better than i do.

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At first I was upset at all these changes. But I realize that its just another change, going with the flow and just pointing out the issues as they come is just the way to go. Too much energy getting all worked up. 

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When is equinox deluxe coming out?

I'm getting concerned since I'm pretty sure she was in the Atlas Prime reveal trailer, I'm sure you guys are really busy in all, but it's honestly been over a year since you first showed it off and I've had this 400p saved just for it since then (pretty extreme I know) but I hope it comes out soon, pretty disappointing when Titania deluxe was announced way after and it's coming before. 

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1 hour ago, Hixlysss said:

have to ask...are the base melee mods, like Fury, Pressure Point, Spoil Strike even, or the ones I'm most curious/eager about...True Steel and Melee Prowess...going to be touched on at all with this update? I mean you're adjusting how the current 'meta' mods like BLood rush affect crit chance, is there any chance that True Steel will get a buff to help compensate for the reduction to Blood Rush? Or a buff to Melee Prowess to give us more options beyond using the dual stat elemental mods? Or even just changing *how* these mods apply their bonuses(like making additive perhaps?) would suffice, imo.

I too have the same general concerns on this point, but I suspect we won't see any changes to that aspect of the basic modding meta until there's a general-to-total overhaul of the modding system in general, which would amount to a complete rebalance of more-or-less every single weapon in the game.

Not that I don't want that - I really, really do - I just don't see it happening just yet.

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I have one big concern here.  A change we've been wanting for a long time and is made all the more important by this system rework and mod rebalance.

 

Zaws.

 

Zaws are not the modular weapons we were promised.  Simply a custom build.  Once a zaw is created, everything about it is a permanent fixture of that weapon.  That's not what modular means.  Modular means that the parts are freely interchangeable.  And that's what we need.

 

Many players have large collections of zaws, all carefully built around the old system and old mod values.  A system which valued status very highly (CO) and base crit not at all on anything with enough range to be slide-viable (MS).  If the mod rebalance is shifting focus away from status with the CO proc limit and adding value to base crit in various ways, people are going to want to change their links out.  And maybe their grips to better balance out their new link selection. 

 

Should everyone be forced to create a dozen brand new zaws from scratch?  Lose all of the catalysts, forma, focus lenses, etc. invested in their current arsenal?

 

Let's make zaws (and all modular equipment) truly modular.  Add in the ability to swap out grips and links on a built zaw. (lock the strike in place as it is the main mastery component).  For zaws in particular, you may still limit strikes to the same weapon type (1h/2h) as the original build.  And for moas, changing the bracket would not need to affect the polarities, only the cosmetics. But for everything else?  Nothing should be stopping it.

 

Give us the option to refit our existing arsenal for this new change instead of being forced to start over from scratch for a minor component tweak on a supposedly modular weapon.

Edited by Callback
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On 2019-10-19 at 11:53 PM, HolySeraphin said:

I'n going to mark it by replying to you, and then keep throwing salt  on the wound once it is released and you're wrong.

Joke is on you, in these cases I would be happy to be wrong.

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On 2019-10-18 at 10:41 PM, Leqesai said:

I'm assuming you are referring to stat sticks. Generally none of the frames listed benefit from stat sticks in a way that would be heinously different from what we have now. Unless the stat bonuses from mods is drastically different or if rivens are nerfed.

 

However, each frame depends on the combo counter for scaling damage. Hopefully this doesn't mean the frames will suffer. 

Thats what i mean. The combo counter... If it doesn't increase dmg output. It will effectively kill gara, atlas, khora 

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