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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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How will these changes impact abilities like Blade storm that scale their damage based off of the current combo counter system?

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Very happy channeling isn't gone for good. But i'm hoping it won't take too long to make it's return.

But 100% damage blocked seems a bit strong doesn't it? I mean maybe 90% for all weapons and 100% for sword and shield? but giving all weapons 100% feels really powerful. I could just sit front of a heavy gunner for an hour and not die.

Also for CO, I'm wondering if the lifted status effect is also taken into account. Because that could be a serious change to how we could mod our weapons.

Edited by Violet_Xe
CO edit
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Instead of having a tactical roll that looks unsatisfying and slow, wouldn't it be better to have a fast and flashy 'ninja blink'? Like the ones most fictional ninja characters use? Or at the very least something similar to Hildryn's or Wisp's custom "roll" animation (a short dash).

This feels like a huge missed opportunity to make melee feel better and look cooler.

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And honestly, we should just sing a little song for Meme Strike being publicly executed and CO being nerfed, like earlier posted:

Ding dong the witch is dead...

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I don't understand the point of the Guardian Derision changes. Does it not still have a taunt? I actually liked using it and it's the only reason I put any time and effort into my sword and boards. 

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All of this is nice until you accounced the whole "melee multiplier only affects heavy attacks"
Don't see why we would ever need more upfront damage to oneshot *3 starchart enemies while basicly removing scaling when that damage is needed.
And I'm pretty sure those beefed up numbers on skana are not gonna be the same for an actually decent weapon.
Also major slap in the face for frames using that combo multiplier.

Edited by SSI_Seraph
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2 minutes ago, TyrianMollusk said:

This seems wrong.  Some of us like building combo and using crits.  Taking some of the combo counter makes sense, but taking ALL the combo counter completely resets your build-up, and turns it into a total either-or kind of thing.  If you want to build combo, you can never heavy attack, and if you heavy attack, you may as well not really build combo anymore.  Especially with the mods you've tied to heavy attacks, 

Take a look at the prevalence of combo duration mods and think about what that means.  People want to keep their combo counter.  The heavy attack system basically competes with this mod type, rendering it fairly useless unless someone avoids heavy attacks.

I think a better compromise could have been found than "heavy attacks wipe the combo counter".  Regardless of how that works, one-attack combo wiping will be less fun than it could be, and remove things your melee-favoring players could be playing with.

Forgive me if I'm reading this wrong, but it seems like your entire argument hinges on the current mods for Combo Counters stay the same, which they don't.

"People like building the combo and using Crits" because it's one of the most effective ways for playing melee, given the current modding system.

But if BloodRush changes to be Not-so-the-only-way (and it IS being changed), then suddenly the combo counter isn't something in every build.

 

If you're referring to the Gameplay style, of having a constantly ticking down resource that you have to keep up to maintain damage....

Ask for THAT. 

And maybe also just play Valkyr or Nidus, who have those mechanics in their kits.

But the Combo counter is just a means to that end. Now DE is retooling it to be a means to a different end.

So maybe instead of saying "Don't change it", say "I liked this gameplay style, and I see it's niche being removed. Please find a way to preserve it?"

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Just now, Evil_Sam_Rye said:

What about abilities that scale off the combo multiplier like Khora's Whipclaw and Atlas' Landslide? How do these changes affect them? Are they now unable to increase their damage based on the new combo system? If that's the case it's a massive nerf to such abilities. 

Aside from that the rest of the changes are looking great so far. The changes to Condition Overload seem a bit off-putting at first but with all melees getting a base dmg increase I think they should be able to balance each other out, but we'll just have to wait for the numbers to verify that. 

They probably will have to be changed, but also most of those abilities are already immensely powerful.

Also for what's worth that Skana they were showing was dealing I think 120 damage, currently it deals 35 damage. It deals 3x as much damage. And 3 CO stacks also means 4x damage. So if every weapon is getting roughly the same treatment CO is capping at 12x current damage, which is equivalent of 5 CO stacks right now. I think if you have a specialized build you can get... 7? CO stacks? Which is insane beyond measure.

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11 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I'm sorry? Cyanex rocks on its own!

Sure it's not very good at single-target bursting but it does deal with groups very efficiently. And, well... that IS what we face usually. Bigger foes can be melee bursted down, usually, especially since they'll catch some corrosive procs in the crossfire.

 

That aside, it is a bit sad that one of the cooler weapon combos/loadout shenaniganry is going away (prior to Redeemer Prime I simulated the same effect with Twin Rogga + Regular Redeemer). But you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs - or in this case, can't fix the scaling which made enemies that weren't level 100+ somewhat irrelevant without nerfing a few fun tricks. And the full Redeemer Prime was setting a worrying precedent - it not needing the combo, taking that fun skill + buildcrafting element out the equation. Now, IMO, it was balanced by virtue of range and being single-target, but the potential was there for some dangerously OP stuff.

are you dealing with level 40 enemies or what? lol

then what about the zakti?

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1 minute ago, Violet_Xe said:

Very happy channeling isn't gone for good. But i'm hoping it won't take too long to make it's return.

But 100% damage blocked seems a bit strong doesn't it? I mean maybe 90% for all weapons and 100% for sword and shield? but giving all weapons 100% feels really powerful. I could just sit front of a heavy gunner for an hour and not die.

Good. There will finally be something mechanical in Warframe that relies on player skill (blocking in a timely fashion and keeping the reticle on the enemy) instead of just building for ez modo wins. Honestly, the dance between blocking an enemy's attacks and dropping your guard to lay down your own is such a fantastic idea on its own that I think it will fundamentally change the new player experience. There will stop being so many moments where your only hope of progressing past some obstacle is being carried or going back to grind for better stuff, and modding for survivability will become a crutch that you can use to assist you if you aren't good enough to stay alive on your own manual dexterity.

In a perfect world, a perfectly performing Warframe player could survive any arbitrary length of time with nothing but unmodded gear. That's not the reality we live in, but it really should be. Level 1 Critical runs should be a thing in Warframe.

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What about Khoras Whipclaw? Its a major loss of damage losing the combo multiplier.

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3 minutes ago, TheGuyver said:

I don't understand the point of the Guardian Derision changes. Does it not still have a taunt? I actually liked using it and it's the only reason I put any time and effort into my sword and boards. 

As an answer, Guardian Derision will still have it's Taunt mechanic, yes.

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Love it. Well most of it.

Not a fan of the life strike change. Really hurts my rage strike finisher build on umbral excal. Id need to try it tho

Edited by (PS4)Keiji_Haku
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So what's the update on scythes? Getting changed to their own two-handed scythe stances, or integrated into heavy blade stances?

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Just now, CodeUltimate said:

are you dealing with level 40 enemies or what? lol

then what about the zakti?

This is veering a bit off-topic. I'll happily share my build in PM's if you want though!

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1 minute ago, [DE]Bear said:

As an answer, Guardian Derision will still have it's Taunt mechanic, yes.

Good to know, thank you for clarifying that. 

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i am immensly offended and disappointed by the change to slide-crits. i don't want to have to get carpal tunnel for pressing a million buttons while playing warframe, i want to press 3 and slidecrit through every mission. i don't want to actually have to play the game, i just want the loot.

if you think this is sarcasm, think again. guess melee is dead now and will be replaced by trade chat. not happy about this.

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31 minutes ago, (PS4)saharkblue said:

The part that says "long range melee weapons were getting TOO MUCH of a benifit" is all i need to loose hope.

At the same time, this will be a huge buff to close range melee, like Fist and Sparring weapons.

It doesn't feel good when I need to give enemies a literal prostate exam in order to damage them with the Tekko Prime WITH Primed Reach equipped.

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You addressed exalted melees, but you didn't address semi-exalted weapons such as landslide and whipclaw.  How are those going to be affected?

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Yay for manual block! Covert lethality changes on daggers will mean i don't have a 1.7k karyst anymore, but base damage will be increasing and life-strike will require some more thought to use. Sounds like a better challenge and more interesting gaming. Well done! 😁

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Sounds great overall. But if you're changing the combo counter, please don't forget about melee combo based abilities like Atlas's Landslide, Khora's Whipclaw, etc. They do not need massive nerfs.

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Are there any thoughts about making the system more actively link with regular gameplay?

Like power use and using guns should help build the combo counter, using heavy attacks should return energy and ammo. So you use all tools all the time in concert to really make the whole flow mean something.

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