Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

[HolySeraphin]

Oh, by the way. You can follow the devs that usually post the workshops, so you always get a warning when they answer something:

[DE] Rebecca: https://forums.warframe.com/profile/4-derebecca/

[DE] Connor: https://forums.warframe.com/profile/710227-deconnor/

[DE] Megan: https://forums.warframe.com/profile/384139-demegan/

[DE] Helen: https://forums.warframe.com/profile/2522846-dehelen/

[DE] Bear: https://forums.warframe.com/profile/1589-debear/

[GreyEnneract]

2 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Thats what i mean. The combo counter... If it doesn't increase dmg output. It will effectively kill gara, atlas, khora 

 

2 hours ago, Bearadactyl-Prime said:

 

This is exactly my concern. It will kill Atlas more than the other two, given Landslide is only effective if it's chained in to a combo. We need some kind of information on how this is going to affect Warframes who rely on the combo counter to be viable.

"A few folks have mentioned this, so just to quickly address: After the initial ask, the idea is that Warframe powers that are based on the combo counter will still get that benefit, but there will be some balance adjustments, as getting higher multipliers on the combo counter is much, much easier to do now. As of this point, I have no further details on that interaction, sorry!"

This is why you always check Latest Staff Replies at the top. Always.

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, GreyEnneract said:

 

"A few folks have mentioned this, so just to quickly address: After the initial ask, the idea is that Warframe powers that are based on the combo counter will still get that benefit, but there will be some balance adjustments, as getting higher multipliers on the combo counter is much, much easier to do now. As of this point, I have no further details on that interaction, sorry!"

This is why you always check Latest Staff Replies at the top. Always.

Wha-there is a Staff replies tracker? Damn...I feel stupid now.

[GreyEnneract]

Just now, HolySeraphin said:

Wha-there is a Staff replies tracker? Damn...I feel stupid now.

[HolySeraphin]

12 minutes ago, Bearadactyl-Prime said:

So, deviating from the topic for a second, posts relaying important information like that should probably be elevated/added to the main post, not included as a random; un-trackable response on page five of a forty page thread.

Even Blizzard makes it easy to find dev posts and responses on their forums, so miss me with that "these people..." bullS#&$. You could have even responded with said information, and not included a completely unnecessary and condescending attitude in your response. You're being that guy by responding in that manner, it's not needed and shines poor on you and the community as a whole.

On top of that, that still does not totally answer the question. And, in particular it is not even completely relevant to Atlas specifically due to his own separate combo counter for Landslide tying in. Atlas's use of the combo counter functions completely different from other Warframes who rely on it due to Landslide relying on both its personal counter and the general counter, and that means he needs to be addressed specifically for proper clarification.

I guess DE does have an easy way to find dev posts and responses on their forums after all. Still, it doesn't justify my behaviour.

[Jynx41174]

Hmmm... Looks good in black and white, cautiously optimistic on how this is going to play out (-Chuckles- not apologizing for the pun)

[Loza03]

42 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

I guess DE does have an easy way to find dev posts and responses on their forums after all. Still, it doesn't justify my behaviour.

This thread has turned surprisingly wholesome all of a sudden.

 

 

To add a question/feedback: Will different melee weapons have different heavy attack speeds? I saw from the Skana it had a heavy attack speed of 0.8 (presumably seconds). Would something like, say, Fang Prime be able to launch a heavy attack faster? Maybe as a means of balancing larger weapons vs things like daggers (Daggers being shorter, not as powerful, but fast and especially so in terms of dishing out their bigger hits).

Also, will any augments see some looks? Things like Rift Strike?

[000l000]

Il y a 2 heures, HolySeraphin a dit :

These people...

"A few folks have mentioned this, so just to quickly address: After the initial ask, the idea is that Warframe powers that are based on the combo counter will still get that benefit, but there will be some balance adjustments, as getting higher multipliers on the combo counter is much, much easier to do now. As of this point, I have no further details on that interaction, sorry!" - [DE] Bear page 5

Except that @[DE]Beardoesn't have much details, which means that this issue isn't necessarily solved at this point either. Especially since combo counters don't give damage buffs anymore so why such frames are still stuck with this mechanics [forced specific mods, forced specific operator school etc.). Plus combo counters are now meant to be spent, so why keeping them on frames who have to stack them - Atlas or Khora are basically unable to use heavy attacks if they want to if they don't want to be screwed by this whole mechanics.

My feeling about this ? They didn't consider such issues seriously when they did implement the new combo mechanics, and now they're stuck with something they can't really solve.

Same thing with blood rush, if one can get more critical with combo counters why the hell would they spend it on any kind of special attack when enemies are still dying in one swing ? Heavy attacks are cool but why should i care when i'm already oneshoting a lvl 100 Nox with my Paracesis ? I really think that melee rework should be looked at along with some damage and armor rework, perhaps a higher level option (lvl 120 for example) could also help - Melee is really strong in Warframe and unless they're going to nerf how damages are scaling i don't see why would anyone use a special attack when one simple swing is already doing all the job. 😔

They should have removed combo entirely, doing half of the job looks like a big mess for now, maybe i'm wrong but we'll see how that works in a few days i guess.

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, 000l000 said:

Except that @[DE]Beardoesn't have much details, which means that this issue isn't necessarily solved at this point either. Especially since combo counters don't give damage buffs anymore so why such frames are still stuck with this mechanics [forced specific mods, forced specific operator school etc.). Plus combo counters are now meant to be spent, so why keeping them on frames who have to keep them - Atlas or Khora are basically unable to use heavy attacks if they want to if they don't want to be screwed by this whole mechanics.

My feeling about this ? They didn't consider such issues seriously when they did implement the new combo mechanics, and now they're stuck with something they can't really solve.

Same thing with blood rush, if one can get more critical with combo counters why the hell would they spend it on any kind of special attack when enemies are still dying in one swing ?

They should have removed combo entirely, doing half of the job looks like a big mess for now, maybe i'm wrong but we'll see how that works in a few days i guess anyway.

It is a trade-off. Heavy attacks are insanely strong, even at 1.0 combo they do 13x damage compared to current numbers. For warframes like Khora, building up the combo counter means high damage for one of their abilities, which already deals good damage. Although you could ask them for these skills to receive their proper loadout like Mesa's regulators and Excal's Exalted blade.

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, 000l000 said:

Except that @[DE]Beardoesn't have much details, which means that this issue isn't necessarily solved at this point either. Especially since combo counters don't give damage buffs anymore so why such frames are still stuck with this mechanics [forced specific mods, forced specific operator school etc.). Plus combo counters are now meant to be spent, so why keeping them on frames who have to stack them - Atlas or Khora are basically unable to use heavy attacks if they want to if they don't want to be screwed by this whole mechanics.

My feeling about this ? They didn't consider such issues seriously when they did implement the new combo mechanics, and now they're stuck with something they can't really solve.

Same thing with blood rush, if one can get more critical with combo counters why the hell would they spend it on any kind of special attack when enemies are still dying in one swing ? Heavy attacks are cool but why should i care when i'm already oneshoting a lvl 100 Nox with my Paracesis ? I really think that melee rework should be looked at along with some damage and armor rework, perhaps a higher level option (lvl 120 for example) could also help - Melee is really strong in Warframe and unless they're going to nerf how damages are scaling i don't see why would anyone use a special attack when one simple swing is already doing all the job. 😔

They should have removed combo entirely, doing half of the job looks like a big mess for now, maybe i'm wrong but we'll see how that works in a few days i guess.

They're balancing Condition Overload and BloodRush, probably giving them lower values. And just the fact that the combo counter doesn't affect normal attacks (even though they will get the equivalent of a 3.4x combo) means that melee will scale slower than before.

[SilviaS12]

Does anyone know when the next update release date is please? update 26 that is.

[GreyEnneract]

Just now, SilviaS12 said:

Does anyone know when the next update release date is please? update 26 that is.

This week is all we know.

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, SilviaS12 said:

Does anyone know when the next update release date is please? update 26 that is.

They want to release this week, so Wednesday or Thursday. But they might delay it to next week.

[SilviaS12]

1 minute ago, GreyEnneract said:

This week is all we know.

Thank you!

[SilviaS12]

1 minute ago, HolySeraphin said:

They want to release this week, so Wednesday or Thursday. But they might delay it to next week.

Thank you!

[Hixlysss]

I actually have 1 more daunting concern about melee phase 2...Can we finally aim our melee attacks?

What I mean is I can swing my sword while staring up at a osprey. And miss. And keep missing until I get the one animation in the combo that is a vertical swing.

The other problem is...well, hitting anything that is down and i'm not talking about ragdolled on the floor, I mean "I have the high ground!" And...my melee swings don't hit. At all. Because none of the animations angle at them, so even with a lot of reach I don't hit em.

[000l000]

il y a 27 minutes, HolySeraphin a dit :

It is a trade-off. Heavy attacks are insanely strong, even at 1.0 combo they do 13x damage compared to current numbers. For warframes like Khora, building up the combo counter means high damage for one of their abilities, which already deals good damage. Although you could ask them for these skills to receive their proper loadout like Mesa's regulators and Excal's Exalted blade.

Current combo already can deliver up to that number of hits, and overkill is still a thing in most content. My only concern is about Khora and Atlas being stuck with the remains of an old mechanics for no reasons, this powers are the bread and butter of this frames and should be considered more seriously, especially since preventing them from using heavy attacks doesn't seem fair nor wise. We aren't talking about exalted weapons here, but powers.

[LogaMC1995]

1 hour ago, GreyEnneract said:

Too bad this doesn't work in mobile browser.

 

Edit: NVM found it there's staff reply button at sidebar.

[Hixlysss]

1 minute ago, 000l000 said:

Current combo already can deliver up to that number of hits, and overkill is still a thing in most content. My only concern is about Khora and Atlas being stuck with the remains of an old mechanics for no reasons, this powers are the bread and butter of this frames and should be considered more seriously, especially since preventing them from using heavy attacks doesn't seem fair nor wise. We aren't talking about exalted weapons here, but powers.

The powers themselves also scale off melee mods(including rivens according to wiki) and I mean...yeah. To "fix" this would require DE to tweak the warframes themselves which they are looking into. Even still, having them scale as they always have would seem...fine? It would be weird if they counted as "heavy attacks" and consumed the CC. That aside, i'd be fine if they didn't scale off the CC because...well, "infinite scale" is just something I feel is bad. "But muh level 400 enemies can't be one shot no more cause my combo counter is gone..."

The long and short...we donno enough about how this is going to affect those powers to determine if it's a thing of "stuck with the remains of an old mechanics for no reason"

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, 000l000 said:

Current combo already can deliver up to that number of hits, and overkill is still a thing in most content. My only concern is about Khora and Atlas being stuck with the remains of an old mechanics for no reasons, this powers are the bread and butter of this frames and should be considered more seriously, especially since preventing them from using heavy attacks doesn't seem fair nor wise. We aren't talking about exalted weapons here, but powers.

Current combo counter can't reach 13x in a reasonable way. As for the abilities, they already do high damage compared to normal weapons. Korra's Whipclaw has 300 base damage, 2x crit damage and 25% crit chance, it deals more damage per hit than Galatine Prime.

Just now, Hixlysss said:

The powers themselves also scale off melee mods(including rivens according to wiki) and I mean...yeah. To "fix" this would require DE to tweak the warframes themselves which they are looking into. Even still, having them scale as they always have would seem...fine? It would be weird if they counted as "heavy attacks" and consumed the CC. That aside, i'd be fine if they didn't scale off the CC because...well, "infinite scale" is just something I feel is bad. "But muh level 400 enemies can't be one shot no more cause my combo counter is gone..."

The long and short...we donno enough about how this is going to affect those powers to determine if it's a thing of "stuck with the remains of an old mechanics for no reason"

Yeah, making them "heavy attacks" would be insane, Whipclaw (300 base) would deal 3900 damage with 1.0 combo counter alone, and 6000 with 1.5 combo counter (if they do receive the 4x extra damage from the heavy attacks, but I guess you were refering to just the combo multiplier) 

[000l000]

Il y a 1 heure, Hixlysss a dit :

The powers themselves also scale off melee mods(including rivens according to wiki) and I mean...yeah. To "fix" this would require DE to tweak the warframes themselves which they are looking into. Even still, having them scale as they always have would seem...fine? It would be weird if they counted as "heavy attacks" and consumed the CC. That aside, i'd be fine if they didn't scale off the CC because...well, "infinite scale" is just something I feel is bad. "But muh level 400 enemies can't be one shot no more cause my combo counter is gone..."

The long and short...we donno enough about how this is going to affect those powers to determine if it's a thing of "stuck with the remains of an old mechanics for no reason"

There's no such thing as infinite scaling once you have limited mod slots. And we do know enough to understand that they did keep combo counter "damage increase" for some obvious reasons - combo related mods and scaling with melee buffs damage powers. Let be serious a second, they remove damage buffs on combo counters or they don't - balance and consistency always suffer from in-between situations.

Buffing this powers base damage along with enhanced melee mods would do the job, keeping combo counters on specific melee mechanics is all but common sense. And as i already said, it also prevents Atlas or Khora from using heavy attacks since it basically resets your combo meter each time, which would also make no sense.

[GreyEnneract]

5 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

There's no such thing as infinite scaling once you have limited mod slots. And we do know enough to understand that they did keep combo counter "damage increase" for some obvious reasons - combo related mods and scaling with melee buffs damage powers. Let be serious a second, they remove damage buffs on combo counters or they don't - balance and consistency always suffer from in-between situations.

Buffing this powers base damage along with enhanced melee mods would do the job, keeping combo counters on specific melee mechanics is all but common sense. And as i already said, it also prevents Atlas or Khora from using heavy attacks since it basically resets your combo meter each time, which would also make no sense.

Seems more like they're just going to count them as "heavy attacks" that don't blow the combo meter, as they are abilities and their cost is the energy used.

[(XBOX)Pattberg]

This thread is 40+ pages and I haven't read every post, but I've read a good portion of them... I have probably 800k melee kills (I'm sure there are plenty of you with way more than that). Needless to say, I really enjoy melee combat (even if it isn't perfect). That said, alot of these melee changes really do seem great. I love the direction it's going. 

However, as someone that enjoys the occasional 3+hr survival, I am concerned with the mod adjustments. I know endurance runs aren't really what DE cares about, but how am I going to reliably kill 3k+ enemies without the scaling of CO + BR (especially if I am solo - which I usually am)? Without both of these, I'm not sure I can make it that long... I know I'm not alone in that fear, but I'm sure it's a minority opinion. I hope the part of the game I enjoy the most doesn't inadvertently get 'removed' because of these changes. I guess I will just have to wait and see how things play out...

Also, unless DE decides to change the way hordes of enemies are coming at us, I'm not sure how heavy attacks are going to be all that helpful. We need consistent dps... I guess it's possible they are trying to bring CC back into relevance...

On side note, in a long survival, I don't enjoy that I have to slog through 90+ mindless minutes to get to the interesting combat. Any way we can do something about that (I know that has nothing to do with this thread)? 

[Haelbrecht]

On 2019-10-19 at 8:09 PM, Kaleidoomscope said:

You may laugh as much as you want. If my post can make other people laugh, then I'm more than glad to do that.

6000p is not even close to the definition of "ridiculous". There are people who pay 15k, 30k for their desired rivens for Rubico, Opticor, etc. Not only because those stats are perfect but also all magnitudes of stats are close to the max value.

And there are people claiming "WTB [Primed Chamber] 100k"

People may persue perfect, not just "good". Sure they have to be responsible for any loss caused by this rework. Others may think they are irrational buyers, and that's all.

And I have no problem accepting this loss, the point is that the general picture is going to the wrong direction.

I know, genius. The point is paying that much for Scoliac is not smart. There are plenty of other weapons who can achieve the same, while for example there are very few weapons that can achieve what can a gas Vulkar do for example. Not to mention that you can buy a Scoliac with perfect stats for 3k plat or less. 

[Guest]

The Enduring Affliction change is a real shame.  It's removing a very unique, powerful, and very underrated effect from our mod toolkit in favor a really generic +status chance.  I say allow it to extend the duration of all active status effects when striking a lifted target.  It's already pretty easy to get high status chances on most weapons with ordinary status mods, and will be even more so with a buffed weeping wounds.

Limiting Condition Overload to 3 potential procs really dumbs down a potentially very interesting mod.  A single weapon will be able to max out the effect, with zero incentive to use your entire arsenal synergistically - no status loading secondaries, no crit melees with CO buffed by a gun, less incentive for speed holster type mods.  Perhaps create a regressive bonus that provides a smaller and smaller bonus for each successive status effect, so that while it can be strong with simplistic builds, it can be a bit stronger for heavily invested, full-loadout builds.  By regressive, I mean something like +80% for the first proc, +75% for the second, 70% for the third, etc.  It'd bring down the maximum potential significantly, but would still permit the players to use the mod as a linchpin for their loadout if they choose.

Maiming strike change sounds great.  Nerf that S#&$ into the ground.

Blood Rush change sounds questionable.

Reach change is freakin awesome, so long as low-range melee weapons aren't capped in the number of enemies they can hit in a single swing (like some currently are).