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Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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5 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

There's no such thing as infinite scaling once you have limited mod slots. And we do know enough to understand that they did keep combo counter "damage increase" for some obvious reasons - combo related mods and scaling with melee buffs damage powers. Let be serious a second, they remove damage buffs on combo counters or they don't - balance and consistency always suffer from in-between situations.

Buffing this powers base damage along with enhanced melee mods would do the job, keeping combo counters on specific melee mechanics is all but common sense. And as i already said, it also prevents Atlas or Khora from using heavy attacks since it basically resets your combo meter each time, which would also make no sense.

Seems more like they're just going to count them as "heavy attacks" that don't blow the combo meter, as they are abilities and their cost is the energy used.

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This thread is 40+ pages and I haven't read every post, but I've read a good portion of them... I have probably 800k melee kills (I'm sure there are plenty of you with way more than that). Needless to say, I really enjoy melee combat (even if it isn't perfect). That said, alot of these melee changes really do seem great. I love the direction it's going. 

However, as someone that enjoys the occasional 3+hr survival, I am concerned with the mod adjustments. I know endurance runs aren't really what DE cares about, but how am I going to reliably kill 3k+ enemies without the scaling of CO + BR (especially if I am solo - which I usually am)? Without both of these, I'm not sure I can make it that long... I know I'm not alone in that fear, but I'm sure it's a minority opinion. I hope the part of the game I enjoy the most doesn't inadvertently get 'removed' because of these changes. I guess I will just have to wait and see how things play out...

Also, unless DE decides to change the way hordes of enemies are coming at us, I'm not sure how heavy attacks are going to be all that helpful. We need consistent dps... I guess it's possible they are trying to bring CC back into relevance...

On side note, in a long survival, I don't enjoy that I have to slog through 90+ mindless minutes to get to the interesting combat. Any way we can do something about that (I know that has nothing to do with this thread)? 

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On 2019-10-19 at 8:09 PM, Kaleidoomscope said:

You may laugh as much as you want. If my post can make other people laugh, then I'm more than glad to do that.

6000p is not even close to the definition of "ridiculous". There are people who pay 15k, 30k for their desired rivens for Rubico, Opticor, etc. Not only because those stats are perfect but also all magnitudes of stats are close to the max value.

And there are people claiming "WTB [Primed Chamber] 100k"

People may persue perfect, not just "good". Sure they have to be responsible for any loss caused by this rework. Others may think they are irrational buyers, and that's all.

And I have no problem accepting this loss, the point is that the general picture is going to the wrong direction.

I know, genius. The point is paying that much for Scoliac is not smart. There are plenty of other weapons who can achieve the same, while for example there are very few weapons that can achieve what can a gas Vulkar do for example. Not to mention that you can buy a Scoliac with perfect stats for 3k plat or less. 

Edited by Haelbrecht
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The Enduring Affliction change is a real shame.  It's removing a very unique, powerful, and very underrated effect from our mod toolkit in favor a really generic +status chance.  I say allow it to extend the duration of all active status effects when striking a lifted target.  It's already pretty easy to get high status chances on most weapons with ordinary status mods, and will be even more so with a buffed weeping wounds.

Limiting Condition Overload to 3 potential procs really dumbs down a potentially very interesting mod.  A single weapon will be able to max out the effect, with zero incentive to use your entire arsenal synergistically - no status loading secondaries, no crit melees with CO buffed by a gun, less incentive for speed holster type mods.  Perhaps create a regressive bonus that provides a smaller and smaller bonus for each successive status effect, so that while it can be strong with simplistic builds, it can be a bit stronger for heavily invested, full-loadout builds.  By regressive, I mean something like +80% for the first proc, +75% for the second, 70% for the third, etc.  It'd bring down the maximum potential significantly, but would still permit the players to use the mod as a linchpin for their loadout if they choose.

Maiming strike change sounds great.  Nerf that S#&$ into the ground.

Blood Rush change sounds questionable.

Reach change is freakin awesome, so long as low-range melee weapons aren't capped in the number of enemies they can hit in a single swing (like some currently are).

 

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4 hours ago, Spaceman.Spiff said:

The Enduring Affliction change is a real shame.  It's removing a very unique, powerful, and very underrated effect from our mod toolkit in favor a really generic +status chance.  I say allow it to extend the duration of all active status effects when striking a lifted target.  It's already pretty easy to get high status chances on most weapons with ordinary status mods, and will be even more so with a buffed weeping wounds.

Limiting Condition Overload to 3 potential procs really dumbs down a potentially very interesting mod.  A single weapon will be able to max out the effect, with zero incentive to use your entire arsenal synergistically - no status loading secondaries, no crit melees with CO buffed by a gun, less incentive for speed holster type mods.  Perhaps create a regressive bonus that provides a smaller and smaller bonus for each successive status effect, so that while it can be strong with simplistic builds, it can be a bit stronger for heavily invested, full-loadout builds.  By regressive, I mean something like +80% for the first proc, +75% for the second, 70% for the third, etc.  It'd bring down the maximum potential significantly, but would still permit the players to use the mod as a linchpin for their loadout if they choose.

Maiming strike change sounds great.  Nerf that S#&$ into the ground.

Blood Rush change sounds questionable.

Reach change is freakin awesome, so long as low-range melee weapons aren't capped in the number of enemies they can hit in a single swing (like some currently are).

 

you want to nerf maiming strike so badly, but u care so much for condition overload.

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vor 49 Minuten schrieb ToKeSia:

you want to nerf maiming strike so badly, but u care so much for condition overload.

thats because condition overload allows our weapons to scale far beyond average content and enables tons of creative builds instead of the (although not to unamusing, ill admit) butt sliding playstyle this mod incurrs. Id rather have none of the mods changed exept those that dont work with the new machanic, as would be senseable. But condition the condition overload change realy is the grave offense here. if you wanna know why these are doubly bad, look at this, Ive seen this in some other post and am pretty sure the nubers themselfs are not entierly correct but it still manages to explain the problem. http://prntscr.com/pmoqga (pretty sure it was in the warframe formus, although I dont remember who created it and am to short on time to check)

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17 hours ago, Callback said:

Modular means that the parts are freely interchangeable.  And that's what we need.

That wilk be nice but it probably kill non-zaw.

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The Melee developments look and sound VERY promising.  Thank you for this amazing work DE!  I am also eagerly awaiting what the future Rage Mode will look like...

I have one concern---I worry that DE is losing sight of the fundamental nature of Warframe melee combat gameplay.  The nature of Warframe combat is dealing with fast, aggressive swarms of enemies.  What makes Warframe melee so satisfying is being able to brutally and efficiently dispatch these waves of enemies coming at you...  The focus now on building up and enhancing short, effective combos works VERY well for this and is super exciting!

But, I worry DE is taking too much inspiration for melee changes from Devil May Cry...  With the fundamental nature of Warframe combat, there is not a lot of time for "juggling"....so I am a bit concerned about this whole "lifting" mechanic and the real benefit/efficacy of this.  Warfame melee is MUCH more akin to Ninja Gaiden gameplay than DMC....  The focus needs to be on brutal, efficient killing techniques that are fast to deal with the swarms of aggressive enemies.  I personally don't want enemies that you lift up and juggle, and who are sponges to multiple hits....this is NOT Warframe combat in my view.  Better to see short, quick combos that kill enemies fast in a cool, visceral manner (dismemberment!).

Does anyone else agree?

Edited by (PS4)Touha9
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Let me think...

if Heavy attack and juggle is new thing, maybe just maybe successful juggle of ennemy should freeze combo counter. As long you can juggle lifted ennemy your melee attack works as it have bonus damage from combo counter. It’s just little idea.

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Le 22/10/2019 à 07:12, GreyEnneract a dit :

Seems more like they're just going to count them as "heavy attacks" that don't blow the combo meter, as they are abilities and their cost is the energy used.

I'm much more concerned about heavy attacks impairing frames powers than the opposite. I wasn't implying that powers could spend combo counters cause, well, it wouldn't make sense anyway. But having to choose between (1) i rely upon frames skills / don't spend combo counters - no heavy attacks or (2) i still use melee mechanics, hence heavy attacks, but get screwed when it comes to frames powers is some major issue to me.

If new combo counters are meant to be acquired easily and spent regularly then why the hell would they keep such mechanics as storing as much combo as we can to get enough buffs ?

Plus DE has to choose, combo are buffing damage or not, we can't keep both it doesn't make any sense. If the new combo system doesn't buff damage anymore then get rid of old mechanics. They simply can buff frames powers damage through other ways.

Edited by 000l000

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Really interested in seeing how this system will compensate for glaives which can be used with guns. When I heavy attack with kestra while holding a hysterix will I change the element of my bullet, or will I heavy attack? Doesn't matter that much tho cause glaives pretty much suck (just like most weapons)

It's such a weird message coming from these devs, "we want u to use the combo animations, we worked hard and even changed em to make u use em, but here are seven ways to not have to use em at all. So let's Nerf this list of your expensive old mods while we are at it." Is there really a point to nerfing main strike after already nerfing the combo system? Is it like a statement or something?I

I'm not usually one to give negative feedback; but it's really hard to understand the logical flow in their decision making process. Like

 

 

I would think:

Combo attacks ~> scales on combo meter.

Melee ability (whip claw) ~> scales on combo meter.

Annoying slide spin attack ~> no build combo, no combo multiplier.

Blocking ~> no build combo, but damage go bye bye.

(I mean I don't know any fighting game where pressing back builds a combo.)

The dev team says:

Combo attack ~> builds combo meter, but no damage 4 u.

Melee ability ~> builds combo but not as much damage for you? (Who the hell knows)

Annoying spinny attack that goes thru walls ~> u still build combo but no damage for u.

Block ~> u will prolly build combo better than all the above.

Heavy attack~> okay now u do the thing the spinny thing used to do.

Also might I add that range is weird stat on melee weapons, still to this day I can't understand why a mod like it exists. The whole point of a melee weapon is to sacrifice "range" for something right? (Aoe damage, superior crit multipliers, ability to move without aiming while doing damage, no reload, some light cc, finishers) but some one day down one day and said "hey what if, we put back in the range, wouldn't that be awesome!?" nevermind I'm done. Still love the game but have to accept 90% the weapons I use will be trash even after the rework XD.

#redeemerprimenevergoesvaultedplz

Edited by Marinara19
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Didnt hear anything about zaws being able to use skins, but i sure hope that feature comes in with the changes. I love my cyath but hecc is the taped together look ugly. 

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5 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

I'm much more concerned about using heavy attacks impairing frames powers than the opposite. I wasn't implying that powers could spend combo counters cause, well, it wouldn't make sense anyway. But having to choose between (1) i rely upon frames skills thus i keep this combo counters - so i can't use heavy attacks or (2) i still use melee mechanics, hence heavy attacks, but get screwed when it comes to frames powers is some major issue to me.

If new combo counters are meant to be acquired easily and spent regularly then why the hell would they keep such mechanics as storing as much combo as we can to get enough buffs ?

Plus DE has to choose, combo are buffing damage or not, we can't keep both it doesn't make any sense.

Those abilities still build combo themselves. Then there's the new 'heavy attack efficiency' mechanic, letting you not blow all of your combo tiers.
You're still looking at it through the lens of current combo gain.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Touha9 said:

The Melee developments look and sound VERY promising.  Thank you for this amazing work DE!  I am also eagerly awaiting what the future Rage Mode will look like...

I have one concern---I worry that DE is losing sight of the fundamental nature of Warframe melee combat gameplay.  The nature of Warframe combat is dealing with fast, aggressive swarms of enemies.  What makes Warframe melee so satisfying is being able to brutally and efficiently dispatch these waves of enemies coming at you...  The focus now on building up and enhancing short, effective combos works VERY well for this and is super exciting!

But, I worry DE is taking too much inspiration for melee changes from Devil May Cry...  With the fundamental nature of Warframe combat, there is not a lot of time for "juggling"....so I am a bit concerned about this whole "lifting" mechanic and the real benefit/efficacy of this.  Warfame melee is MUCH more akin to Ninja Gaiden gameplay than DMC....  The focus needs to be on brutal, efficient killing techniques that are fast to deal with the swarms of aggressive enemies.  I personally don't want enemies that you lift up and juggle, and who are sponges to multiple hits....this is NOT Warframe combat in my view.  Better to see short, quick combos that kill enemies fast in a cool, visceral manner (dismemberment!).

Does anyone else agree?

After going through Steve's twitter, and past streams of his, the rage mode sounds more like a mix between Devil Trigger and Dynasty Warriors.

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On 2019-10-20 at 5:07 AM, DrivaMain said:

I bet you are one of those filthy memestrike whips/polearm users. Well goodbye, you will not be missed.

You bet wrong muppet. Now pay up.

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I like everything, keep up the good work!

Edited by Peter

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30 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

Those abilities still build combo themselves. Then there's the new 'heavy attack efficiency' mechanic, letting you not blow all of your combo tiers.
You're still looking at it through the lens of current combo gain.

After going through Steve's twitter, and past streams of his, the rage mode sounds more like a mix between Devil Trigger and Dynasty Warriors.

Instead if making these long complex illogical systems why can't rage mode/channeling just increase your damage for %hp per/second or swing like every other iteration before it in every other single video game. 

If they really wanna be troll with the channelling (making it like "dynasty warriors") they better put drops out on the map (kinda like the focus is now) u have to walk to go pick up too. I would laugh my butt off if channeling was reduced to that XD. But to be honest, it would be more interesting than another boring toggle tho. This game has enough of those.

Edited by Marinara19

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Just now, Marinara19 said:

Instead if making these long complex illogical systems why can't rage mode/channeling just increase your damage for %hp per/second or swing like every other iteration before it in ever single video game. 

If they really wanna be troll with the channelling (making it like "dynasty warriors") they better put drops out on the map (kinda like the focus is now) u have to walk to go pick up too. I would laugh my butt off if channeling was reduced to that XD. But to be honest, it would be more interesting than another boring toggle tho. This game has enough of those.

Heavy attacks are what's replacing channeling though, just by looking at how all channeling mods are being converted to heavy attack related mods.
The 'rage mode' will be its own thing, apparently so game changing that they delayed it to put good lore and flashiness behind it.

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18 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Thats what i mean. The combo counter... If it doesn't increase dmg output. It will effectively kill gara, atlas, khora 

It will certainly have a negative impact on them, for sure.

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On 2019-10-18 at 7:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Amalgam Organ Shatter - Will be changed from Charge Attacks to Heavy Attacks.

Likewise for Avenging Truth?

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On 2019-10-18 at 2:22 PM, Nazzami said:

mod changes need to be expanded reach, condition overload etc as it look they all seems to be massive nerfs seems like melee weapons are going to the trash

considering how we abused condition overloads power. we could of seen it coming a year away.

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On 2019-10-18 at 11:28 PM, [DE]Bear said:

 

5. Combo Counter Rework
The Combo Counter will be getting a new functionality pass. Rather than just providing flat bonuses to damage, the Combo Counter will now also act as an expendable resource for new heavy hitting combat: HEAVY ATTACKS!

 

8. Weapon Stats and Mastery Limits
With this new change, there is a broad-sweeping review of Melee weapons and how they function with the new system. Expect the following changes to all melee weapons across the board:

  • Base Damage - Since the Combo Multiplier will apply to Heavy Attacks only, the base damage of all melee weapons is going to significantly increase. Expect to see some big numbers! Full details will be in the Update notes, but every weapon is going up. 

Wait....
serious question... I hadn't noticed that bit in section 8.
First of all, Isn't this contradictory?

And most importantly: Will Combo Counter Multiplier NO LONGER provide the bonus to base damage?

The ONLY reason I could see the CO nerf and Blood Rush nerfs work, is because I calculated the damage output in the changed system to the present system, while accounting for base damage buff AND the scaling damage purely based on combo counter.

But there's the possibility that combo counter will ONLY apply to heavy attacks??
That's.............. terrifyingly bad...
I really genuinely hope this isn't the case.
Can you please clarify?

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34 minutes ago, DragoonStorm1 said:

Wait....
serious question... I hadn't noticed that bit in section 8.
First of all, Isn't this contradictory?

And most importantly: Will Combo Counter Multiplier NO LONGER provide the bonus to base damage?

The ONLY reason I could see the CO nerf and Blood Rush nerfs work, is because I calculated the damage output in the changed system to the present system, while accounting for base damage buff AND the scaling damage purely based on combo counter.

But there's the possibility that combo counter will ONLY apply to heavy attacks??
That's.............. terrifyingly bad...
I really genuinely hope this isn't the case.
Can you please clarify?

I didn’t notice it before, did they sneaky change it?

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2 hours ago, DragoonStorm1 said:

But there's the possibility that combo counter will ONLY apply to heavy attacks??

As in the damage multiplier will only apply to heavy attacks. All combo related mods will still affect normal melee, and the base damage of all melee weapons will be increased to compensate for the loss of the combo counter damage multiplier on normal attacks

 

3 hours ago, Leqesai said:

It will certainly have a negative impact on them, for sure.

They’ve said that combo counter will still affect applicable warframe powers

Edited by (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom
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1 hour ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

As in the damage multiplier will only apply to heavy attacks. All combo related mods will still affect normal melee, and the base damage of all melee weapons will be increased to compensate for the loss of the combo counter damage multiplier on normal attacks

 

They’ve said that combo counter will still affect applicable warframe powers

That's good to hear!

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7 hours ago, GreyEnneract said:

Heavy attacks are what's replacing channeling though, just by looking at how all channeling mods are being converted to heavy attack related mods.
The 'rage mode' will be its own thing, apparently so game changing that they delayed it to put good lore and flashiness behind it.

Also I wonder why heavy attacks are replacing channel and not replacing charge attacks(does anyone still use those? ohhh yeah redeemer ppl before bulletstorm)..

Like they could change the charge attack button to heavy attack then I'd have a reason to hold melee button mid combo, then the lack of reliance on the secondary fire button would allow skana+pistol become a thing because there wouldn't be a conflict (secondary fire for pistol or melee?). However they are ready to ship this beast so it doesn't even matter! It's too late to say goodbye~~

Like DE, literally, all u needed to do to Nerf sliding was not allow combo to work with it and not allow it to build the multiplier. That's it... I like the idea of change if it's actually making the game better, having to lift an enemy in the air than I can chop it up is silly. Having a button to release all the damage I should have done in the first place like I'm an equinox ult, is silly.

The more I think about the illogical nature of how this is being implemented, the more I grow disdain for it.... I'll just sit back and take it.

Yes to blocking building a combo meter instead of draining it, yes to having to press another button to execute a heavy attack, yes to nerfing actual combos while wasting ur time fixing the animations (u might as well just take them out the game), yes to charge attacks still existing for no reason, yes to nerfing mods after already nerfing combos, yes to pressing the back button for air combos.

All these are great decisions I love em all. I hope when they re add channeling we have to press 9 button combi just to activate it and have all our energy drained.

Edited by Marinara19
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