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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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On 2019-10-18 at 12:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Life Strike - Heavy Attacks will now regenerate Health.

This is something that's bothering me. I run this mod on Exalted Blade(Excalibur) which works really well at the current state of the game. I use Berserker and Primed Fury on a Crit build, I rarely use Chromatic Blade augment so just as rarely do I run a setup for status. Thus Healing Return isn't viable for my build on Excalibur. Nor is it on Chromatic Blade setup because it's just not as effective/efficient as Life Strike is.

I'll toss the build here in a spoiler and continue from there.

Spoiler

9ciXtoT.png

Continuing my back story: My build is really quick, so I'm constantly attacking and montoring my health so when I am in a sortie that's augmented elemental enemies they are dealing serious damage and I have to keep running channel off and on to keep my health up via Life Strike. It doesn't have to be ranked up either to be efficient since I deal so much damage and hit so fast that I keep that all in check.

Why this matters? Because when reading "Heavy Attacks" You picture them as just that. Heavy. Slow moving, and heavy hitting attacks that take longer than normal attacks. I run for speed quick healing. What's this going to do to my speed?

It makes me think it will get me killed the moment I try to perform heavy attacks causing me to be slower, and open longer to damage without adequate healing.

Obviously I have to heal because there aren't any good alternatives to Life Strike for this kind of build, and I cannot delay using Life Strike for anything, so having my speed and life strike healing, can be crucial in tough fights.

Excalibur isn't exactly Iron Man.

So I am concerned about the changes for this mod, and my setup. I may have missed if there's anything addressing my concern, or similar.

 
 
 
1
Spoiler

I have tested Healing Return before Separately modifiable Exalted Weapons came to exist, and while it was a constant healing affect, it wasn't efficient enough because it relied too heavily on having A LOT of status effects to be efficient enough to keep up in really tough situations such as the example of Elemental or even Physical enhanced sorties. LIfe Strike does a far better job in such situations.

 

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I'd like clarification on the new Enduring Affliction. Previously it enabled very very high status damage, and could be used to reliably maximize the old Condition Overload. Going by the new description, without the numbers, does it act more like an individual +60% status chance boost to add with the bonus of 60/60 mods? Or does it go as far as to guarantee status effects? Additionally, the old Enduring Affliction could perform a support role, as it could extend allies status effects on a target. Does the new form have any such potential, such as increasing status chance on targets you lift but for all sources of damage like guns, sentinels, or even allies? Considering that a lift is only a temporary window.

Looking forward to the changes.

Edited by VhwatGoes
Noting that a lift is temporary.

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This might be a good time to bring up something that's bugged me for a very long time when it comes to blocking mechanics, and I'm hoping that maybe some of these were revisited to be more consistent.

The way the old blocking worked, is that certain weapons had a certain amount of damage reduction, ranging from 35% for something like dual daggers, to 85%, for sword and shield and polearms. Now, polearms and sword/shield being in the top-tier blocking category makes sense, but what doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me is that staves only blocked 60% of the damage? They're literally just polearms without blades.

I'm assuming that the blocking cone is basically just applied across categories in the same way as the old damage resistance mechanic, so like, I imagine you're working with something like this?

70 degrees: Hammer, Heavy Blade, Machete, Polearm, Scythe, Sword and Shield
60 degrees(?): Blade and Whip, Dual Swords, Fist, Gunblade, Nikana, Sword, Staff, Tonfa, Two-handed Nikana
45 degrees: Claws, Dagger, Dual Daggers, Glaive, Nunchaku, Rapier, Sparring, Whip

I feel like Staves should be able to block as much as Polearms can, honestly. I remember when I first started it didn't make a whole lot of sense that a Mk1-Skana was as good at blocking incoming fire as a Mk1-Bo. Staves aren't used, like, at all in the current melee meta, and I think that'd be a good change to them.

Edit: In general, though, I'm looking forward to the changes! The 100% damage reduction for blocking I felt was something that should have been in melee for a long time! And combining it with combo counters means I can maybe do that defensive staff playstyle I've always wanted 😄

Edited by Fr3nchyfier
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The heavy attack shouldn't burn all combo count.............it should use a stack number(depend on the dmg boost&mods)

idl it if i get 4.0x combo count and when i press the heavy attack key.............:facepalm:

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Guys watch prime time, they adres lots of questions.

1 hour ago, ReasonX said:

The heavy attack shouldn't burn all combo count.............it should use a stack number(depend on the dmg boost&mods)

idl it if i get 4.0x combo count and when i press the heavy attack key.............:facepalm:

For example this one was addressed already.

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Hello wonderful DE folks, I would like to congratulate you on the great work in the game, always bringing new content and gameplay improvements.
I would like to propose some changes that I believe are simple and would make it easier to move and flow some repetitive commands.
1. Put in the menu of Fortune and Ketos, the option NAVIGATION, so that we can access the map to go to other missions or the DOJO without having to go to orbital and from there to navigate;
2. By giving ESC in navigation, arsenal, communication, operator, etc., return or main menu, reducing unnecessary keyboard clicks;
3. Since they are doing an orbital rework, they could have an access place like in the simulacrum for testing weapons, combos, etc. and we could see places like thrusters, cargo bay, etc.
4. In the incubator, why do we have to put the mascots in ecstasy as they could not be accessed like moas and other companions, avoiding the hassle of having to put and remove the mascots?
5. I would like to know about the possibility of having modular primary weapons like secondary ones.
And that's it thanks
Edited by KatianUhad

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I like block but I also liked the fluid swap into full melee by only hitting the melee button. It sounds like we went backwards - hopefully it's just the wording and DE managed to get both to work together.

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

I like block but I also liked the fluid swap into full melee by only hitting the melee button. It sounds like we went backwards - hopefully it's just the wording and DE managed to get both to work together.

We have the fluid swap as well.

Basically, you can hold to bring out Melee and get access to blocking. AFAIK, everything else is still available in smooth mode.

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8 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

We have the fluid swap as well.

Basically, you can hold to bring out Melee and get access to blocking. AFAIK, everything else is still available in smooth mode.

I was hoping they were able to have block exist within fluid swap.

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I don’t even think DE has read any of the feedback listed in this Dev Workshop thread and reconsidered changes to some concepts that had criticism to them. Condition Overload still looks like it’s capped to a 3 Status Effect threshold with a +120% melee damage multiplier. Why haven’t you gone back to the drawing board in reworking the algorithm and leaving the mod uncapped?

Why is it imperative to rush the update out of the door without taking a look at the criticisms that was vocal in this thread?

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3 hours ago, KatianUhad said:

3. Since they are doing an orbital rework, they could have an access place like in the simulacrum for testing weapons, combos, etc. and we could see places like thrusters, cargo bay, etc.

+1 or rather +9999999999

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When do We get the 40 pages of dev workshop? The patch was delayed, but thats okay for me, but I want to already see how the melee stats changed, so I can plan ahead and hype the update. In the prime time, It was said, next day It will be uploaded, but Its still not up 😞 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

I don’t even think DE has read any of the feedback listed in this Dev Workshop thread and reconsidered changes to some concepts that had criticism to them. Condition Overload still looks like it’s capped to a 3 Status Effect threshold with a +120% melee damage multiplier. Why haven’t you gone back to the drawing board in reworking the algorithm and leaving the mod uncapped?

Why is it imperative to rush the update out of the door without taking a look at the criticisms that was vocal in this thread?

Because CO is op. You can get damage easly with 100x modifiers and the max is something like 700x. CO was op and They nerf combo and blood rush, We probably wont have 3x combo counter all red crits anymore, so ofc Its normal, that CO, which is even more op then blood rush builds should get nerfed too. 
You can now get 10x damage multiplier ONLY WITH 3 ELEMENTALS. 10x damage and most melee weapons will probably have 2-4x more damage, maybe more status or crit and many low range melees get bigger range. I'd consider this a huge buff. 
Altough a 6 elemental limit with 90% would have been better maybe. Little bit harder to get the elements but better damage multiplier with all of them. Also somehow They need to limit so pure crit weapons cant benefit from CO. You can just proc with your primary/secondary and use a crit melee to kill everything. 

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Saying (in the last prime time) the patch will keep Covert Lethality on daggers seems... inaccurate, given the mod now does neither of the things it used to.

Edited by MahouShoujoRainbow6
Clarification

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26 minutes ago, HUNDarkTemplar said:

Because CO is op. You can get damage easly with 100x modifiers and the max is something like 700x. CO was op and They nerf combo and blood rush, We probably wont have 3x combo counter all red crits anymore, so ofc Its normal, that CO, which is even more op then blood rush builds should get nerfed too. 
You can now get 10x damage multiplier ONLY WITH 3 ELEMENTALS. 10x damage and most melee weapons will probably have 2-4x more damage, maybe more status or crit and many low range melees get bigger range. I'd consider this a huge buff. 
Altough a 6 elemental limit with 90% would have been better maybe. Little bit harder to get the elements but better damage multiplier with all of them. Also somehow They need to limit so pure crit weapons cant benefit from CO. You can just proc with your primary/secondary and use a crit melee to kill everything. 

The better approach would have been to uncap the Status Effect threshold but lower the multiplier or rework the algorithm to have lower finalized damage or diminishing returns on Status Effects with Condition Overload. Right now, with its current iteration, it would be a blind dps boost just from swinging your weapon due to forced status procs from stance combos, IPS weight, and your chosen elemental combo from melee alone. That’s not intuitive gameplay, but dumbing down to just equipping the mod and getting an immediate boost from just attack.

I honestly don’t see this as an improvement but an over simplification of how this mod should work.

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After watching the stream I noticed that while you had changes to the Glaive Prime regular melee stats there were almost no changes at all to charged throw. That seems a bit off. Right now a charged throw does 10x the damage that a melee attack does and this is balanced by how much time it takes to charge up, flight time out and flight time back. In the stream it's only doing 3x more damage since you only changed the blast damage slightly. I'm pretty disappointed in this change. The Glaive is already not a very meta weapon to begin with and I like to play a thrown style, these changes are going to reduce its effectiveness even more now. Also noticed the regular thrown damage is not 5x as much as melee but 2x.

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15 hours ago, Malevento said:

After watching the stream I noticed that while you had changes to the Glaive Prime regular melee stats there were almost no changes at all to charged throw. That seems a bit off. Right now a charged throw does 10x the damage that a melee attack does and this is balanced by how much time it takes to charge up, flight time out and flight time back. In the stream it's only doing 3x more damage since you only changed the blast damage slightly. I'm pretty disappointed in this change. The Glaive is already not a very meta weapon to begin with and I like to play a thrown style, these changes are going to reduce its effectiveness even more now. Also noticed the regular thrown damage is not 5x as much as melee but 2x.

Glaive Prime is quite literally one of the best melee weapon out there and I'm pretty happy to see it's not very popular.

Gaz modded Glaive Prime charged throw kills high level armored enemies incredibly fast.

If the stats stay the same after the update, I'm fine with it. They actually buffed its base damage stats which is pretty awesome considering it's a weapon I never bothered to build combo with. Throw don't build up combo counter and pure melee damage isn't very useful with it. So it never went as far as 3X combo multiplier.

And now they give it 3X more melee damage ? That's a pretty incredible buff if you ask me. Buffing the throw damage on top of that would make it way too strong IMO.

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What's the point of feedback if you just ignored everything related to Condition overload?

 

Please do not make it just a brain dead mod with a 3 statuses cap, it's just deletes the whole experience around this mod and makes different loadouts \ weapon switching etc. completely pointless.

 

Why do you want to make dumber gameplay and force us to just press one button instead of using the whole loadout and teammates?

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18 hours ago, Malevento said:

After watching the stream I noticed that while you had changes to the Glaive Prime regular melee stats there were almost no changes at all to charged throw. That seems a bit off. Right now a charged throw does 10x the damage that a melee attack does and this is balanced by how much time it takes to charge up, flight time out and flight time back. In the stream it's only doing 3x more damage since you only changed the blast damage slightly. I'm pretty disappointed in this change. The Glaive is already not a very meta weapon to begin with and I like to play a thrown style, these changes are going to reduce its effectiveness even more now. Also noticed the regular thrown damage is not 5x as much as melee but 2x.

The glaive prime is the "META" weapon with the right frame and the slight increased damage(and criticals) on charged throw+ increased range means "BEYOND META". The damage you saw in the stats for the charged throw are the total of the hit+explosion and you can't have both but if you hit an enemy and then you make your glaive explode. Dual wielding has innate channeling effect so the damage is higher, at least they said that will not have any changes..

And now you can even kill the enemies when you get tired to throw it...

The BIG problem is the zenistar nerf and having a riven with +range is pretty useless now with almost 0 disposition.

Edited by bibmobello

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20 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

I don’t even think DE has read any of the feedback listed in this Dev Workshop thread and reconsidered changes to some concepts that had criticism to them. Condition Overload still looks like it’s capped to a 3 Status Effect threshold with a +120% melee damage multiplier. Why haven’t you gone back to the drawing board in reworking the algorithm and leaving the mod uncapped?

Why is it imperative to rush the update out of the door without taking a look at the criticisms that was vocal in this thread?

They are practically  buffing everything for stupid simple missions and nerfing everything for "serious" players.

Edited by bibmobello
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Am 18.10.2019 um 19:58 schrieb [DE]Bear:

9. Mod Re-balancing and Functionality Changes

I am a bit confused about the blood-rush changes.

It looks like blood-rush does not benefit from the weapons' crit-chance anymore. But wasn't that the whole point of that mod? Will pure crit weapons be worth using, or will hybrid masterrace prevail? Will Zaws still be the best of the best and nothing but the best in their respective category? 

And most importantly: Will Galatine Prime be able to step outside of Dokrahm's shadow? Will there be a reason to use another heavy blade, other than Gram Prime or Dokrahm? To be honest, I don't care. Just make War good, thanks.

Edited by Beefle

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On 2019-10-24 at 11:05 PM, Fr3nchyfier said:

This might be a good time to bring up something that's bugged me for a very long time when it comes to blocking mechanics, and I'm hoping that maybe some of these were revisited to be more consistent.

Honestly "Sword" and Shield should be 180 degrees.
Unless they plan on making Tower Shields as a weapon type.

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I typed this in the prime time thread but I should have put this here:

 

I am exited for the new challenging warframe mission and cautiously optimistic on the melee changes. Cautious because I KNOW there will be things you guys miss and will have to fix down the line. (I'm looking at you Mios + old quick melee...)

I think you guys have a lot more functional fixedness than us players because you develop the game. Example: The Zenistar; you guys are talking about changing (nerfing?) it, which is cool IMO, but did you know half of the weapons use is that it is a slash monster? This is because when you add a lot of 60/60 elemental mods and remove the disc (which can have viral heat [which is becoming even better]) you can have near 100% status chance with NO elements to take up the proc chance.

EX:

If your status chance is 80%(lets say you have 3 X 60% mods and a drifting contact) and you have impact at 10 puncture at 10 and slash at 80, your SLASH CHANCE PER HIT is 64%. (If the elements were in the way, like most other weapons you'd have 120 viral damage and 60 heat damage crowding the chances giving you only 22.9%...)

Your highest and most likely to proc element becomes slash (64%) and with a VIRAL de-buff this weapon becomes one of THE BEST SLASH WEAPONS in game on any mission that has point control/defense. The natural trade off is the low range and less than quick attack speed and loosing the viral debuff in missions on the move.

 

But I digress; please understand that even if our feedback doesn't make sense sometimes, there is usually an underlying reason why we even bother to write it down.

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Can heavy attacks be remapped to the "R" or reload key by default instead? Make more sense to me since we won't be reloading with our melee out anyways. Seems perfect since its right next to "E" key.

I know that right now pressing the reload key with your melee out will switch to your gun and reload, but that feels unnecessary to me when you can just right click to swap and then reload as normal. 

Edited by Dragazer

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1 hour ago, Dragazer said:

Can heavy attacks be remapped to the "R" or reload key by default instead? Make more sense to me since we won't be reloading with our melee out anyways. Seems perfect since its right next to "E" key.

I know that right now pressing the reload key with your melee out will switch to your gun and reload, but that feels unnecessary to me when you can just right click to swap and then reload as normal. 

I feel like they're saving the "R" key for the "Rage Mode"

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