Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

[(NSW)zook-pl]

Guys watch prime time, they adres lots of questions.

1 hour ago, ReasonX said:

The heavy attack shouldn't burn all combo count.............it should use a stack number(depend on the dmg boost&mods)

idl it if i get 4.0x combo count and when i press the heavy attack key.............

For example this one was addressed already.

[-VF-Katian_Uhad]

Hello wonderful DE folks, I would like to congratulate you on the great work in the game, always bringing new content and gameplay improvements.
I would like to propose some changes that I believe are simple and would make it easier to move and flow some repetitive commands.
1. Put in the menu of Fortune and Ketos, the option NAVIGATION, so that we can access the map to go to other missions or the DOJO without having to go to orbital and from there to navigate;
2. By giving ESC in navigation, arsenal, communication, operator, etc., return or main menu, reducing unnecessary keyboard clicks;
3. Since they are doing an orbital rework, they could have an access place like in the simulacrum for testing weapons, combos, etc. and we could see places like thrusters, cargo bay, etc.
4. In the incubator, why do we have to put the mascots in ecstasy as they could not be accessed like moas and other companions, avoiding the hassle of having to put and remove the mascots?
5. I would like to know about the possibility of having modular primary weapons like secondary ones.
And that's it thanks

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

I like block but I also liked the fluid swap into full melee by only hitting the melee button. It sounds like we went backwards - hopefully it's just the wording and DE managed to get both to work together.

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

I like block but I also liked the fluid swap into full melee by only hitting the melee button. It sounds like we went backwards - hopefully it's just the wording and DE managed to get both to work together.

We have the fluid swap as well.

Basically, you can hold to bring out Melee and get access to blocking. AFAIK, everything else is still available in smooth mode.

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

8 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

We have the fluid swap as well.

Basically, you can hold to bring out Melee and get access to blocking. AFAIK, everything else is still available in smooth mode.

I was hoping they were able to have block exist within fluid swap.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

I don’t even think DE has read any of the feedback listed in this Dev Workshop thread and reconsidered changes to some concepts that had criticism to them. Condition Overload still looks like it’s capped to a 3 Status Effect threshold with a +120% melee damage multiplier. Why haven’t you gone back to the drawing board in reworking the algorithm and leaving the mod uncapped?

Why is it imperative to rush the update out of the door without taking a look at the criticisms that was vocal in this thread?

[(NSW)zook-pl]

3 hours ago, KatianUhad said:

3. Since they are doing an orbital rework, they could have an access place like in the simulacrum for testing weapons, combos, etc. and we could see places like thrusters, cargo bay, etc.

+1 or rather +9999999999

[HUNDarkTemplar]

When do We get the 40 pages of dev workshop? The patch was delayed, but thats okay for me, but I want to already see how the melee stats changed, so I can plan ahead and hype the update. In the prime time, It was said, next day It will be uploaded, but Its still not up 😞 

[HUNDarkTemplar]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

I don’t even think DE has read any of the feedback listed in this Dev Workshop thread and reconsidered changes to some concepts that had criticism to them. Condition Overload still looks like it’s capped to a 3 Status Effect threshold with a +120% melee damage multiplier. Why haven’t you gone back to the drawing board in reworking the algorithm and leaving the mod uncapped?

Why is it imperative to rush the update out of the door without taking a look at the criticisms that was vocal in this thread?

Because CO is op. You can get damage easly with 100x modifiers and the max is something like 700x. CO was op and They nerf combo and blood rush, We probably wont have 3x combo counter all red crits anymore, so ofc Its normal, that CO, which is even more op then blood rush builds should get nerfed too. 
You can now get 10x damage multiplier ONLY WITH 3 ELEMENTALS. 10x damage and most melee weapons will probably have 2-4x more damage, maybe more status or crit and many low range melees get bigger range. I'd consider this a huge buff. 
Altough a 6 elemental limit with 90% would have been better maybe. Little bit harder to get the elements but better damage multiplier with all of them. Also somehow They need to limit so pure crit weapons cant benefit from CO. You can just proc with your primary/secondary and use a crit melee to kill everything. 

[MahouShoujoRainbow6]

Saying (in the last prime time) the patch will keep Covert Lethality on daggers seems... inaccurate, given the mod now does neither of the things it used to.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

26 minutes ago, HUNDarkTemplar said:

Because CO is op. You can get damage easly with 100x modifiers and the max is something like 700x. CO was op and They nerf combo and blood rush, We probably wont have 3x combo counter all red crits anymore, so ofc Its normal, that CO, which is even more op then blood rush builds should get nerfed too. 
You can now get 10x damage multiplier ONLY WITH 3 ELEMENTALS. 10x damage and most melee weapons will probably have 2-4x more damage, maybe more status or crit and many low range melees get bigger range. I'd consider this a huge buff. 
Altough a 6 elemental limit with 90% would have been better maybe. Little bit harder to get the elements but better damage multiplier with all of them. Also somehow They need to limit so pure crit weapons cant benefit from CO. You can just proc with your primary/secondary and use a crit melee to kill everything. 

The better approach would have been to uncap the Status Effect threshold but lower the multiplier or rework the algorithm to have lower finalized damage or diminishing returns on Status Effects with Condition Overload. Right now, with its current iteration, it would be a blind dps boost just from swinging your weapon due to forced status procs from stance combos, IPS weight, and your chosen elemental combo from melee alone. That’s not intuitive gameplay, but dumbing down to just equipping the mod and getting an immediate boost from just attack.

I honestly don’t see this as an improvement but an over simplification of how this mod should work.

[Malevento]

After watching the stream I noticed that while you had changes to the Glaive Prime regular melee stats there were almost no changes at all to charged throw. That seems a bit off. Right now a charged throw does 10x the damage that a melee attack does and this is balanced by how much time it takes to charge up, flight time out and flight time back. In the stream it's only doing 3x more damage since you only changed the blast damage slightly. I'm pretty disappointed in this change. The Glaive is already not a very meta weapon to begin with and I like to play a thrown style, these changes are going to reduce its effectiveness even more now. Also noticed the regular thrown damage is not 5x as much as melee but 2x.

[Isokaze_BestKaze]

15 hours ago, Malevento said:

After watching the stream I noticed that while you had changes to the Glaive Prime regular melee stats there were almost no changes at all to charged throw. That seems a bit off. Right now a charged throw does 10x the damage that a melee attack does and this is balanced by how much time it takes to charge up, flight time out and flight time back. In the stream it's only doing 3x more damage since you only changed the blast damage slightly. I'm pretty disappointed in this change. The Glaive is already not a very meta weapon to begin with and I like to play a thrown style, these changes are going to reduce its effectiveness even more now. Also noticed the regular thrown damage is not 5x as much as melee but 2x.

Glaive Prime is quite literally one of the best melee weapon out there and I'm pretty happy to see it's not very popular.

Gaz modded Glaive Prime charged throw kills high level armored enemies incredibly fast.

If the stats stay the same after the update, I'm fine with it. They actually buffed its base damage stats which is pretty awesome considering it's a weapon I never bothered to build combo with. Throw don't build up combo counter and pure melee damage isn't very useful with it. So it never went as far as 3X combo multiplier.

And now they give it 3X more melee damage ? That's a pretty incredible buff if you ask me. Buffing the throw damage on top of that would make it way too strong IMO.

[She11by]

What's the point of feedback if you just ignored everything related to Condition overload?

 

Please do not make it just a brain dead mod with a 3 statuses cap, it's just deletes the whole experience around this mod and makes different loadouts \ weapon switching etc. completely pointless.

 

Why do you want to make dumber gameplay and force us to just press one button instead of using the whole loadout and teammates?

[bibmobello]

18 hours ago, Malevento said:

After watching the stream I noticed that while you had changes to the Glaive Prime regular melee stats there were almost no changes at all to charged throw. That seems a bit off. Right now a charged throw does 10x the damage that a melee attack does and this is balanced by how much time it takes to charge up, flight time out and flight time back. In the stream it's only doing 3x more damage since you only changed the blast damage slightly. I'm pretty disappointed in this change. The Glaive is already not a very meta weapon to begin with and I like to play a thrown style, these changes are going to reduce its effectiveness even more now. Also noticed the regular thrown damage is not 5x as much as melee but 2x.

The glaive prime is the "META" weapon with the right frame and the slight increased damage(and criticals) on charged throw+ increased range means "BEYOND META". The damage you saw in the stats for the charged throw are the total of the hit+explosion and you can't have both but if you hit an enemy and then you make your glaive explode. Dual wielding has innate channeling effect so the damage is higher, at least they said that will not have any changes..

And now you can even kill the enemies when you get tired to throw it...

The BIG problem is the zenistar nerf and having a riven with +range is pretty useless now with almost 0 disposition.

[bibmobello]

20 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

I don’t even think DE has read any of the feedback listed in this Dev Workshop thread and reconsidered changes to some concepts that had criticism to them. Condition Overload still looks like it’s capped to a 3 Status Effect threshold with a +120% melee damage multiplier. Why haven’t you gone back to the drawing board in reworking the algorithm and leaving the mod uncapped?

Why is it imperative to rush the update out of the door without taking a look at the criticisms that was vocal in this thread?

They are practically  buffing everything for stupid simple missions and nerfing everything for "serious" players.

[Beefle]

Am 18.10.2019 um 19:58 schrieb [DE]Bear:

9. Mod Re-balancing and Functionality Changes

I am a bit confused about the blood-rush changes.

It looks like blood-rush does not benefit from the weapons' crit-chance anymore. But wasn't that the whole point of that mod? Will pure crit weapons be worth using, or will hybrid masterrace prevail? Will Zaws still be the best of the best and nothing but the best in their respective category? 

And most importantly: Will Galatine Prime be able to step outside of Dokrahm's shadow? Will there be a reason to use another heavy blade, other than Gram Prime or Dokrahm? To be honest, I don't care. Just make War good, thanks.

[GreyEnneract]

On 2019-10-24 at 11:05 PM, Fr3nchyfier said:

This might be a good time to bring up something that's bugged me for a very long time when it comes to blocking mechanics, and I'm hoping that maybe some of these were revisited to be more consistent.

Honestly "Sword" and Shield should be 180 degrees.
Unless they plan on making Tower Shields as a weapon type.

[MokutoBunshi]

I typed this in the prime time thread but I should have put this here:

 

I am exited for the new challenging warframe mission and cautiously optimistic on the melee changes. Cautious because I KNOW there will be things you guys miss and will have to fix down the line. (I'm looking at you Mios + old quick melee...)

I think you guys have a lot more functional fixedness than us players because you develop the game. Example: The Zenistar; you guys are talking about changing (nerfing?) it, which is cool IMO, but did you know half of the weapons use is that it is a slash monster? This is because when you add a lot of 60/60 elemental mods and remove the disc (which can have viral heat [which is becoming even better]) you can have near 100% status chance with NO elements to take up the proc chance.

EX:

If your status chance is 80%(lets say you have 3 X 60% mods and a drifting contact) and you have impact at 10 puncture at 10 and slash at 80, your SLASH CHANCE PER HIT is 64%. (If the elements were in the way, like most other weapons you'd have 120 viral damage and 60 heat damage crowding the chances giving you only 22.9%...)

Your highest and most likely to proc element becomes slash (64%) and with a VIRAL de-buff this weapon becomes one of THE BEST SLASH WEAPONS in game on any mission that has point control/defense. The natural trade off is the low range and less than quick attack speed and loosing the viral debuff in missions on the move.

 

But I digress; please understand that even if our feedback doesn't make sense sometimes, there is usually an underlying reason why we even bother to write it down.

[Dragazer]

Can heavy attacks be remapped to the "R" or reload key by default instead? Make more sense to me since we won't be reloading with our melee out anyways. Seems perfect since its right next to "E" key.

I know that right now pressing the reload key with your melee out will switch to your gun and reload, but that feels unnecessary to me when you can just right click to swap and then reload as normal. 

[GreyEnneract]

1 hour ago, Dragazer said:

Can heavy attacks be remapped to the "R" or reload key by default instead? Make more sense to me since we won't be reloading with our melee out anyways. Seems perfect since its right next to "E" key.

I know that right now pressing the reload key with your melee out will switch to your gun and reload, but that feels unnecessary to me when you can just right click to swap and then reload as normal. 

I feel like they're saving the "R" key for the "Rage Mode"

[Kingcrow15]

I just wanted to pop in and mention that I'm a little sad to see auto block going away as I almost never blocked before that was added in melee rework part 1. 

 

Any chance of having an auto block as a exilus weapon adapter mod? Even if it was only a chance of automaticly blocking similar the the parry mod. 

 

Fingers crossed. Looking forward to this update! 

[rainy]

Will the Rift Strike augment for Twin Basolk now work using Heavy Attacks? Previously it needed a charge attack to teleport.

[PapaDiiddles]

How are you guys planning to change Amalgam Javlok Magazine Warp with the removal of channeling? I know its kind of a niche mod but im building out an Ack & Brunt with the augment to work with it and im just hoping i can use the mod without expending energy. I even got a riven to fill the roll of both primed reach and primed pressure point to save a slot for the augment.

[SilviaS12]

On 2019-10-18 at 2:09 PM, lihimsidhe said:

tl;dr: Melee 3.0 mockup

All in all this rework looks pretty f**king incredible I must say.  As someone I think at least slightly influenced Melee 2.x,There is only one core suggestion I have:

Block Anytime, Anywhere. The Tenno either can execute a single command (single key or multi key press)  to block. Allow most actions to be cancelled into blocks. Blocking always should have been a fallback action for when a Tenno finds themselves in trouble regardless of what they are doing. This is a clear example how dedicated firearm/melee modes hold back Warframe's potential. Also I can't mention blocking in a serious manner without referencing this. 

Imagine a combat scenario where a Tenno is highly engaged with the enemy.  Suddenly, a huge attack suddenly comes barrelling towards them and they do not have time to dodge.  Only block.  What sounds more fun and natural to you:

A) At the last moment the Tenno stops firing his/her gun and brings up their arms in the nick of time to block the attack.  Perhaps timing the block could lead to parries.

B) The Tenno has to stop firing their weapon, put it away, wait for their melee weapon to get pulled out, and then block.  If they have the time to do this you know what they could have also done?  Just about anything else in the game including moving out of the way thereby defeating the point of blocking.

Being able to seamlessly use block at any time adds an amazing amount of utility to a player's toolkit. If DE did decide to implment an 'anytime, anywhere' block I would hope they reconsider blocking not always negating 100% of the damage in all cases (maybe except for parries?).  A weapon having variable block cones, block %, and possibly even parry windows gives DE more stats to experiment with that make sense.  Why throw this design space away needlessly?

Again the rework looks f**king AMAZING.  It does truly.  However, until DE discards the notion of dedicated firearms/melee modes completely Warframe will always be playing 2nd fiddle to its own 1st rate potential. I say this because action legends such as Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, Nier: Automota, etc, have shown such an incredible path forward by having one unified 'action combat' mode.  This doesn't mean there can't be an other way but Warframe's firearm/melee modes do not seem to be an improvement over what those legends have done.

Also it's worth really driving home DE could literally create the most incredible combat system known to man. However, if the enemies remain stuck as ants we crush with hammers, all this work to make combat more engaging becomes a somewhat moot point.  We are still hammers crushing ants and combos and in depth combat is a distant option to nuking dumb, enfeebled enemies that literally run to their slaughter.

Love you guys, the game you make, and the work you do.  🙂

Not bashing your idea at all, but rather adding to it, Blocking anytime anywhere yes, I think that would be useful for ranged, but it is not fair for ranged players to have ranged, scope and block at the same time UNLESS in ranged mode and not taking the blocking mechanism from melee mode, all melee mode has is their block close range and attacks so there are pros and cons to both states just to choose the right one at the right time, so if the blocking will be from a different source, like say an energy riot shield or something when in ranged mode this sounds more appealing, realistic and feasible to work as a block anytime anywhere when in ranged, but to magically whip out your sword to block whilst hold your sword with both hands already holding the rifle? At least for me that is totally unnatural. So neither A or B. Ranged mode should have it's own blocking of some sort. Also yes DMC, NG and Nier Automata are great games, really great, but not legendary. DMC has a massive following, NG has it's name stay since NES days, Nier Automata? A VISUAL AND STORY MASTERPIECE OF ARTWORK. I played them all and finished them so long ago, I don't play them again nor feel like I want to play them again. Warframe I will play for way longer than those again and again and again for EVERTHING ELSE WARFRAME HAS GOT THAT THOSE 3 LEGENDS DON'T. At least when melee is fully returned.