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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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On 2019-10-18 at 8:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

LIFTED STATUS. When a target is Lifted, it is held suspended in the air, allowing a player to follow up on attacks while the target is held helplessly aloft.

As others have noted, many of these changes are worrisome - like the Condition Overload being nerfed hundreds of times. But what worries me most about all these changes is the "Lifted status".

There is not enough information about it. It only lifts enemies so we can perform shiny combos at them?

This mechanic is a very clear copy of other games. My first guess is the 2019's DMC5 or MK11, but in those games this mechanic not only for show - it has important part of game's whole combat system. In DMC5 its about the stylish meter and getting more points, in MK11 its about getting free hits without the enemy blocking or retaliating.

In Warframe one should not want to deal with a single enemy for more than a second or two. Anything at or over 2 seconds is already a waste of effort. Even Covert Lethality is within that time range. So that "status" must not be just for looks. We need numbers to it, and with big effect - X damage multiplier, increase the combo counter with X%, spread all status to nearby enemies or similar. It must be something worth putting the time into it.

Otherwise its a wasted dev effort. Just like K-Drive - a copy of Tony Hawk games, but so underdeveloped that it doesn't benefit Warframe at all.

We need more information on that status effect. 

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So daggers got screwed on the Block angles and lost Covert Lethalty......Why exactly would anybody in their right minds touch a dagger ever again? Covert Lethalty already was the single reason daggers were alright on a selected few frames, these changes make dagger 100% obsolete.....great job! But hey, ppl can stab enemys from 10 meters away now thanks to the reach rework! Because that totally makes sense! Screw you DE.

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All and all, good changes so far. The only thing I would suggest is make melee heavy attack a press and hold (mouse 1) when in dedicated melee mode, this is natural and intuitive, this also plays well with combos, so for example: forward+light attack -> forward+heavy attack = combo; so on and so forth. This would also work well with the ground slam, single press = light ground slam, press and hold = heavy ground slam.

Edited by GenAce2010
clarification and addition

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6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Already addressed: They will be changed to Heavy Attack boosts instead.

okay thanks

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I have a Little feedback about the new phase 2 system: 

I want to suggest the return of certain mechanics that was very fun to play in the game before the phase 2 arrived.

 

Two Handed Nikana(Tatsu): I liked before in phase 1, when you can make the "3 hit spin move" after 1 or 2 hits i dont remember it well... then the warframe made some kind "juggle style" move and wait to continue with the last 3 hits; that thing added style to the wielding of the two handed nikana. Plz make that combo in the same order like before :c

Glaives: There was a fast combo attack with [Gleaming Talon] that allowed the player to fast-attack spinning the glaive with the normal straight attack combo... and that was an amazing thing cuz you could hit and run everywhere killing enemies and that was fun, make it return please.

One handed Nikana: Same thing with Hit and run, plz make the forward combo of [Decisive Judgement] be able to make the warframe move forward (walk/run) when doing the 2nd hit, this 2nd hit now leaves you standing without being able to move. Hit and run with volt running everywhere with the nikana like a ninja at full speed running, slicing and dicing enemies with that combo move is what everyone wants to do, Plz make it real hahah.

And another thing i realized is that the charged (now heavy) attacks with the [Amalgam Organ Destroyer] mod are a little bit slower than before... Specially with the Caustacyst... before i could just spam the toxin proyectiles faster with that mod equiped, and now feels weird.

I hope you can read this.

And THANK YOU VERY MUCH for the upgrade!!, i love this game.

 

Edited by Wephrix
misplaced words

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It takes a while to get used to but i seem to be getting the hang of the new system. One thing saddens me though, apparently the fast flurry from Gaia's Tragedy got removed? It was the reason i used the stance at all haha. I understand that maybe it made reaching the final punch a little longer but still. I'd rather it become the combo's opener instead of the triple uppercut.

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Tested just a bit since it's getting late here. It feels (positively) weird to finally have range on short weapons.

My single complain for now is regarding Tempo Royale: please make Bold Reprise a single attack per key. That move is slow -- even worse with Gram Prime -- so having it twice is quite penalizing.

Edited by maycne.sonahoz

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Feedback: to me it seems blood rush was a bit over-nerfed, obviously with how fast we gain combo now it needed to be lowered but 60% is a bit too low, possibly buff it to 80 or maybe even 100, since we now use the combo meter for heavy attacks which suprisingly aren't worthless so, good job on that part :p

As for the blocking agles why the hell does cassowar have a smaller blocking ange than dual cleavers ? (55 vs 60) The angles should be changed a bit.

Edited by TronionX
EDIT: Apparently new blood rush scales wit BASE crit instead of modified crit which may be the reason for it feeling so weak now on certain melees, in that case instead of buffing the value, change it back so it scales with modified crit chance

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Please give us back the attack range of the long handled weapon. It's unreasonable to change it. It makes no sense and not logical that the attack distance of a long handled weapon is similar to that of a dagger weapon

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unknown.png

These don't seem to work.

(M5 is my normal melee attack) unknown.png

Edited by Wolfdoggie

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Anyone figured out how to use Zenistar's charged disk throw in the new system? None of the combos seem to trigger it for me.

Edit: Turns out you have to first unbind quick melee, or rebind heavyt melee, as they share the same key. You would think it wouldn't use quick melee as the bind when you're in melee locked state.

Edited by Aftcrest

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Firstly, liking the update so far, however...


Glaive feedback (dual-wield):
1. Dual-wielding does not support new inputs (i.e. forward melee vs neutral melee) given that RMB by default is the key for both block and aim, could we have at least forward and neutral inputs for dual-wielding (excluding block modifiers)?
2. The removal of power throw explosions seem to have unintentional (maybe nerf?) effects to dual-wielding; for example, in the previous build, it was possible to charge-throw an Orvius using dual wielding, allowing the player to suspend an enemy and shoot it, however now it is not possible... (please bring it back, really liked the idea of using different glaives for different throw effects)
3. Speaking of throw effects, can we have a glaive equivalent of thunderbolt since power throw does not grant explosions now
(I understand we can still detonate the glaives in mid flight, but still would be great quality of life to have explosion on impact)

Cobra & Crane thrown function loss?
Tested with Sigma & Octantis that shield throw function was tied to back + mid air attack, however Cobra & Crane seems to have lost its ability to throw the shield? (possible bug or oversight)

 

Edited by T04STR
moar testing
  • Like 1

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so now I've had a taste of the rework, though only with nikana stances so far (skiajati with BJ)...is there a way we an CHOOSE finishers to be either the Use key OR melee attack key? running a radial howl umbra excal is fun, though i like triggering the finisher's a lot...didnt realize it had been moved to the Use key. I DO love the rather massive status increase i got with my build....as im tearing through armored units with EASE on a gas build (crazy bleeds :D, especially with RH)

That being said, PLEASE buff Weeping wounds to the 60% instead of 40%...or at least give us a way in the UI to see what the crit/status chances are after X amount of stacks? I was hitting a max of 220 hits with a stack of 11 on weeping wounds (coudlnt go any higher on the hit counter for some reason?)

Edited by Kalvorax

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new blood is avaliable and updated the game pretty good, just made one notice on the serro, where i think the sound effects in combat were somewhat lacking/wanted more visuals, the spinning attack is awesome, i want to see what wukong and excalibur got new, i think the new tenno weapon is a bit impresive but in a dark place, since it just came out it has no explanations and i dont lknow how to use it, i dont have a kuvalich or know anything about it, but i colored it just now, i dont see any primary or secondary problems but wish for some blocking or something added in some cases to bows and some larger weapons at the cost of armor and energy in the future- and wish that there were some new music added for the orbiter and nav.

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RIP Crit Melee builds, Combo timer mods, and spin attacks dealing damage. All hail Condition Overload, Heat, & Corrosive and sometimes killing blow. Welcome to Slam, if you wanna jam.

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hey de how is this better as far as i can tell all youve done is turn good weapons into meh weapons thought you were gona iboost weapon dam to balance the nurf to br it needs alot more and we dont need a cap on the counter

 

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3 hours ago, Wolfdoggie said:

unknown.png

These don't seem to work.

(M5 is my normal melee attack) unknown.png

I think the described combo is wrong since this is the Heavy attack now.

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So I have a few problems with this update. Things that can be changed but doubt it will happen.

1. Fix the zenistar, making the Base duration 10 seconds makes it struggle since it is not a heavy hitting weapon making it a one time use per combo weapon. That's not ok in any loadout, that and it straight up kills the UFO lord ivara.

2. Separate the requiem mods and relics to their own space in market. Having to pay up 875 plat for mainly just cosmetics isn't helpful for players who can't spend the majority of time grinding. That being said the requiem kuva Liches deciphering is ridiculous.

3. Fix the mods! Primed reach is almost as useless as primed sure footed, come on DE I understand you don't like players being overpowered stacking up those big numbers. But in all fairness that's why most veteranso stick around. Being able to enter a stupid high duration survival and brag about it. Now we are just in a state of sure we can get big numbers but on 2 maybe 3 enemies at a time.

4. Want to make requiem relics more used and have endgame content? Make them work like Tower keys, THAT would be endgame and make the endurance players happy. Maybe throw in some diffrent rewards in each instead of switching up the requiem mods... like really? Think about how much the community would adore endurance relics being able to dish out things like kuva, endo, 100,000 crews. Hell make it more costly to radiant it like 300, 500 or even 1000. In the end it would be worth it and player can have fun after they are done grinding the kuva weapons and never touch the liches again. Let's face it that's gona happen if they are gona be a pain stealing rewards.

*mic drop*

Edited by (XB1)RyukesApple
Typos (dyslexia)
  • Like 1

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5 hours ago, (PS4)Keiji_Haku said:

Ah you dont see ypurself as a problem cause ur too high up on your horse. Lets be honest your about as annoying as the people whining. You contribute about as much as them too. What exactly are you gaining by adding to the idiocy? Have you provided any construct feedback? Yes and no. These are obviously your opinions based on knowledge and a rework you do not yet possess and thats fine. Speculation is always welcome but then the second half of your comment is basically "i like salt".  Your whole comments value is then undermined by it. It wasnt needed. All it does is instigate more problems. Again part of the problem not the solution.

 

Also you have no proof that naramon wont get left behind. I am attributing my information to the fact naramon was not mentioned on prime time but zen was. The things not said are just as important as the ones that are. Naramon, the melee centric school, was not addressed.

Oh yeah,  I'm the one on a high horse.

"Let's be honest", you specifically find what I'm saying annoying. It seems much more like you're irritated by me, than the idea that you have a totally neutral perspective, entirely planted in the well being of the whole community by having them avoid bickering. It's much more likely to me, that I've instigated you, who doesn't want their meta nerfed or playstyle changed.

I am contributing my perspective as a player. DE wants to please the most possible players, to keep the most possible players around. I am one player. As is everyone else offering criticism, constructive feedback, complaining, or letting it be known that they find the changes fantastic, potentially making it more worth returning to the game for or playing it longer for.

The message I'm putting out by writing what I have, is that even if there are people that seriously might want to drop the game because of changes like the ones they've made, there are also players like me, that are enticed back into the game by them.

All our perspectives are potentially valuable ones, so there's no reason not to put them forward. We both potentially have something to gain by me putting forward what my reactions to things are. Even my reaction of enjoying all the salt is relevant and valid, in that light. I don't see how it undermines anything I've said in any way, outside of you seemingly choosing that you want to toss them aside because you find me annoying. I don't view anything I've said as "adding to the idiocy".

By all means, let the whiners whine. Voice your concerns. I won't ask you to be quiet. Maybe something they or you have to say will be valuable in some way. DE will pick out what they want from it all anyway. That's not going to stop me from reveling in it, because I've been waiting for changes of this sort for a long time. A lot of people talk as if the game SHOULD BE busted, and it has frustrated me deeply for a long time.

I don't need to add any constructive feedback. I'm happy with  the proposed changes. There's nothing to construct. Nor would I necessarily need to if I  wasn't happy with the changes. It would behoove me to put it forward (kind of like I'm doing now) if I had the energy, articulating ability, or creativity to propose practical solutions if I felt it had any chance of improving the state of the game. But I'm not under any pressure to do so.

 

Obviously I have no proof that Naramon won't get left behind. But there's no proof that it will be either.  It's true that DE has left a lot of content behind in the past, but I exceedingly doubt that they'd just totally neglect to update one of the 5 options of an extremely story relevant power type that a huge portion of the playerbase has spent who knows how many hours and resources grinding in. It also seems absurd to me, that they'd be looking at JUST Zenurik, if they've even thought about the concept of changing focus schools to go along with the other changes. And if they've confirmed they're changing Zen, they've confirmed they've changed the rest of that.

In addition, it already seems apparent that they aren't trying to just ruin the day of everyone that had those meta playstyles. I mean, we already know that range on spears is still going to be super good. In the grand scope, they're doing what most people wanted, regarding range. Buff everything else up, instead of nerfing the strongest stuff down. Long weapons get a small nerf, EVERYTHING ELSE gets a noticeable buff. What people have done in the past is still going to work. Just not quite as effortlessly efficiently, and it won't make everything else obsolete.  Looking at that, I very much doubt Naramon will be left behind in a meta sense. Actually I'd predict that it's going to remain pretty popular.

I get that you have concerns or issues to take up. You aren't the only one though. I've posted to vocalize parts of my own issues, in the hopes that they will be addressed..

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Am I missing something with the hold momentarily then release combos? They don't seem to do anything? Do you need to have a certain amount of combo counter in order to use?

I only attempted in simulacrum

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As one of the only people who was actually looking forward to this for the mechanical changes rather than dreading the nerfs, I have to ask:

Has anyone managed to successfully trigger the Lifted status on an enemy and then done anything with it? I was dropping lvl 100 enemies in the simulacrum and stripping all of the DPS-boosting mods off my weapons and I still couldn't accomplish a simple juggle under any circumstances. I was actually looking forward to juggling in Warframe, I wanted to try to at least once knock an enemy into the air and then do the back+attack air combo on them.

Assuming the status proc chance isn't just total garbage, the effect either needs to last longer or glue the enemy more firmly in place, because the closest I got to triggering it was what looked like a couple slow-motion ragdoll effects (and even then its hard to tell) that near-instantly drifted the enemy out of attack range.

Edited by RhythmScript

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In phase 1, the "charged attack" animation changed according to the combo chain we did. Now it doesn't, please DE, can you make this feature come back? We want to have control of the combo strings by combining light and heavy attacks. Pleaaaaseeeeeee !!

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There appears to be a bug, where swinging heavy blade even a single time is disabling toggled sprint, could you fix this please?

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