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Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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TY again for good nerfs, now the melee is going to trash. And for me, as for melee player, the story of this game ends, until the melee will be reconstructed again in the better way. 

Get back the channeling! Get back the old combo counter! The max. combo counter is 12 for now with fixed blood rush, seriously? The Fulmin will deal more damage for 40+ minutes of survivng for now in missions with starting lvl 35+. No any significance to take the Life Strike. "1 strike for deliting all combo counter? - amazing" (sarcasm). No channeling block.  Just no more fun, for example, with Volt and fully maxed power for the second skill for melee attacks (yes, i really like it!).

The first update in my mind, that i really dont want to see in future of Warframe (with the exepction of new combo variants, manual blocking and visualy beautiful slams and heavy attacks).

(P.S. Heavy attacks and slams looks visual pretty good, yes, i like it, thank you for the work, but they are useless...)

Im sorry, if i did a grammar or any another mistakes, my Eng. is not the best. Thanks.

Edited by Geefal
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19 hours ago, maycne.sonahoz said:

My single complain for now is regarding Tempo Royale: please make Bold Reprise a single attack per key.

Thanks for fixing that. :)

Still about Tempo Royale, am i the only one who'd switch the August Mesto (neutral) and Majestic Abandon (forward) combos?

Also, Avenging Truth mod description still mentions Charge attack instead of Heavy attack.

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I haven't gotten a chance to try the update myself because my computer is dead and has been for a couple of months. I still feel I can weigh in because I had people test things out and stream the footage at my request. Here's what I understand are the benefits and problems of the new system. I'll address my observations and explain my concerns for each one in segment, as well as offer a suggestion from the perspective of a player that's well versed in a variety of builds and ways to play the game. I'll start with the good then the bad.

The Good

  1. 100% Blocking Damage Reduction Creates gameplay diversity
  2. Seamlessness is always appreciated
  3. Range normalization is great
  4. Introduction of Air Combos is a plus and can open up more mods later.
  5. Melee Combos are less input intensive to to pull off for sure

I think what I'm most excited for is the Range normalization for shorter ranged weapons, because I feel they needed it. Objectively, short ranged weapons suffered a bit and this'll be a big deal. Although the different between short and long ranged weapons might be too subtle after a range mod is slapped on. Perhaps a slight fixed % boost to add a bit more noticeable of a difference, not too much to bring ranged melee back to where it before though.

100% Damage Reduction on blocking also opens up some gameplay oppurtunities for shield regen and squishy frames to play a bit more aggressively within enemy zones of pressure and control. You're less likely to die when sneezed on if you use Melee for defense without losing out on combo count scaling. I like this in principle as this introduces a bit more functionality to melee beyond damage. Potential Set Mod for this when?

Air Combos are also exciting because it means we might see more style and fun applications of air melee. Just one Air Combo is a little too... little? But It's a start and I already like what I see. Potential Set Mod for this when? I'm excited.

 

The Bad

  1. Status Builds have been nerfed and can't compete with critical builds.
  2. Lifted Status is relatively underpowered and hard to work with.
  3. Heavy attacks underpowered for the cost of losing all combo counter.
  4. Slower Attacks and Weapons are hurt by the change.
  5. Input Buffer window is too generous and ruins combo control.

Status Builds Nerfed too Heavily

Condition Overload is now a viable replacement for Primed Pressure point on weapons that proc status somewhat reliably already, at the cost of  having diminishing returns if both Pressure Point and Condition Overload are run. We've lost the scaling damage of Condition Overload, and only replaced a damage mod in the process. 

This effectively has gutted pure status weapons as a build option. However, I believe the solution should be pretty easy.

Introduce some of the multiplicative scaling of Condition Overload in the form of a combo counter scaling. That way, it's a replacement for pressure point and it returns some of that scaling damage back to pure status weapons. We can potentially knock out two birds with one stone here by producing an alternative to the 'mandatory' damage mod. Pressure Point for less status inclined weapons, and Condition Overload for the adequate status based ones as an alternative. A smaller exponential buff between the number of statuses and the combo counter might be ideal.

Anything is preferrable to gutting crit to put it in line with gutted status. So if an alternative solution can be found to remedy this drop in build diversity, I'm open to that.

 

Lifted Status is Underperforming

We've run into a similar problem that was encountered when working with Titania's Lantern issues. Enemies effected by Lifted Status are effectively crowd controlled, but capitalizing on it with melee is difficult. This is exacerbated by the poor melee control but more on that in a moment. Lifted Status is flawed on principle with how it's basically the Lantern problem. Making the Lifted Status more like a Rhino Stomp might be better, but you lose out on the aesthetic of air combos I imagine.

A good compromise is giving Lifted Enemies is to bias the arc to be vertical and possibly slower, unaffected by more attacks on them, and/or improving tracking of melee attacks on them if you take to the air or follow them on the ground. As it is now, staying in position to follow a lifted enemy seems to be difficult.  However, this isn't the only problem with Lifted Status.

Lifted Status also doesn't seem worth it aside from the instrinsic value of incapacitation, which is redundant with knockdowns. Knockdowns also let you deal finisher damage to them. So to prevent redundancy, Lifted Status should provided something other than a damage boost and its crowd control so it doesn't overlap too much with Knockdown and it's ability to enable ground finishers. It also has to be something that can work with critical or status builds.

A suggestion would be to allow for increased Combo Counter Buffs on lifted enemies. Blood Rush/Gladiator, Condition Overload's above change suggestion, Weeping Wounds, and Heavy Attacks should all get an improved efficacy against Lifted Targets. This ties into the next point.
 

 

Heavy Attacks aren't worth their Cost

There is an opportunity cost to using your Heavy Attacks. While combo scaling is easier and building combo is much easier now too, especially with faster weapons but more on that in the next section, Heavy Attacks do not seem worth it. They're not satisfying either. They're not the dressing on an otherwise technique focused update to melee. They're too weak and you would have to use them more frequently to justify the combo depletion or they'd have to be much much stronger than they already are.

We have a variety of ways to fix this but allowing Heavy Attacks to scale better against Lifted enemies would be a step in the right direction, as stated above. However, there is one more suggestion I'd like to make to make the system even more cohesive.

Allow the combo to only be partially refunded when landing Heavy Attacks on either Lifted or Knockdown affected enemies. Making heavy attacks on their own stronger cannot justify the loss of the Combo Counter build up. It's way too meta to just hold onto Combo Counter forever. That is the focus of Naramon School after all. So allow for a skill based way to hold onto Combo Counter, such as conditions to be met. Anything is preferable. The mods that affect Heavy Attacks can only compete if Heavy Attacks are intrinsically valuable as an opportunity cost on their own. Snowballing is always preferable. So a way to snowball heavy attacks needs to be a thing or it can't detract too much from the endless combo snowball builds to be worth it.

Slow Attacks  and Weapons are Ineffective

People don't seem to find the combo build up to be feasible with slower weapons. Ironic, because the meta before favored big strong and slow weapons. This is exacerbated by the lack of good control and poor buffer mechanics that make things sloppy. It's simply much better to flail at the speed of light to build combo than measure your strikes.

Slow weapons are already weak in the sense that they can't apply much status too quickly. So they don't also need to be held back by slower damage ramping with combo.

The solution here might be as easy as a simple tweak to the combo scaling of slower swinging  weapons and attacks. As it is now, slow weapons cannot scale with faster ones, since even though pure status melee is sub-optimal now, that doesn't mean status is inherently weak. It's pretty important at end game. It's just pure status is weak compared to pure crit. This is exacerbated by the poor control of melee combo strings and input buffer. Something that'll be covered in the next segment.

 

Input Buffer makes controls unwieldy

 

Lastly, for a lot of weapons, the stationary combo doesn't lock onto the enemy that well from what I've seen. The moving combo also sends one overshooting the enemy. While this is great for cleaving through enemies that die in one hit, when you need to focus something smaller than a crowd down, melee can struggle. Especially without Range Mods. All the above problems are made worse by this as it forces one to potentially focus on fast, long range, critical or critical+status weapons, effectively reducing build diversity with only these style being what apparently feels good??? I'm not sure what the consensus is on this. What I do know for certain is that overshooting is a problem and part of the reason for that is - is that buffer window is too generous and commital, with the tactical dodge as a remedy being a little cumbersome to pull with with the requirement of two inputs (aim+dodge roll).

A really elegant solution that solves two birds with one stone is allowing for crouch to cancel the current combo string for the purpose of overriding your current commitment. Weaving Slide attacks would also accomplish this, allowing crouch, slide and slide attacks to reset a combo would allow for 1 button input to fix any buffer issues. Additionally, decrease the window in which buffered inputs are registered. These are all but suggestions based on observations. Please continue to do good work as I believe this melee rework has potential if fixed. I like what I see in regards to the positives. Let's just hash out the potentially unintended consequences.
 

 

Conclusion

As with all new updates, the launch is a little rocky. So I'm optimistic about all this. I like the potential this has and the pieces are falling in ways that I like what I see. Addressing some of the more popular complaints would be nice, but also expanding upon the positive changes this brings will add a ton of depth to Melee. I don't think it's a step backwards for melee at all, just not executed properly due to potential bugs and unintended math (maybe?). I look forward to hotfixes and updates.

Edited by Azimbee
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49 minutes ago, Azimbee said:

I haven't gotten a chance to try the update myself because my computer is dead and has been for a couple of months. I still feel I can weigh in because I had people test things out and stream the footage at my request. Here's what I understand are the benefits and problems of the new system. I'll address my observations and explain my concerns for each one in segment, as well as offer a suggestion from the perspective of a player that's well versed in a variety of builds and ways to play the game. I'll start with the good then the bad.

The Good

  1. 100% Blocking Damage Reduction Creates gameplay diversity
  2. Seamlessness is always appreciated
  3. Range normalization is great
  4. Introduction of Air Combos is a plus and can open up more mods later.
  5. Melee Combos are less input intensive to to pull off for sure

I think what I'm most excited for is the Range normalization for shorter ranged weapons, because I feel they needed it. Objectively, short ranged weapons suffered a bit and this'll be a big deal. Although the different between short and long ranged weapons might be too subtle after a range mod is slapped on. Perhaps a slight fixed % boost to add a bit more noticeable of a difference, not too much to bring ranged melee back to where it before though.

100% Damage Reduction on blocking also opens up some gameplay oppurtunities for shield regen and squishy frames to play a bit more aggressively within enemy zones of pressure and control. You're less likely to die when sneezed on if you use Melee for defense without losing out on combo count scaling. I like this in principle as this introduces a bit more functionality to melee beyond damage. Potential Set Mod for this when?

Air Combos are also exciting because it means we might see more style and fun applications of air melee. Just one Air Combo is a little too... little? But It's a start and I already like what I see. Potential Set Mod for this when? I'm excited.

 

The Bad

  1. Status Builds have been nerfed and can't compete with critical builds.
  2. Lifted Status is relatively underpowered and hard to work with.
  3. Heavy attacks underpowered for the cost of losing all combo counter.
  4. Slower Attacks and Weapons are hurt by the change.
  5. Input Buffer window is too generous and ruins combo control.

Status Builds Nerfed too Heavily

Condition Overload is now a viable replacement for Primed Pressure point on weapons that proc status somewhat reliably already, at the cost of  having diminishing returns if both Pressure Point and Condition Overload are run. We've lost the scaling damage of Condition Overload, and only replaced a damage mod in the process. 

This effectively has gutted pure status weapons as a build option. However, I believe the solution should be pretty easy.

Introduce some of the multiplicative scaling of Condition Overload in the form of a combo counter scaling. That way, it's a replacement for pressure point and it returns some of that scaling damage back to pure status weapons. We can potentially knock out two birds with one stone here by producing an alternative to the 'mandatory' damage mod. Pressure Point for less status inclined weapons, and Condition Overload for the adequate status based ones as an alternative. A smaller exponential buff between the number of statuses and the combo counter might be ideal.

Anything is preferrable to gutting crit to put it in line with gutted status. So if an alternative solution can be found to remedy this drop in build diversity, I'm open to that.

 

Lifted Status is Underperforming

We've run into a similar problem that was encountered when working with Titania's Lantern issues. Enemies effected by Lifted Status are effectively crowd controlled, but capitalizing on it with melee is difficult. This is exacerbated by the poor melee control but more on that in a moment. Lifted Status is flawed on principle with how it's basically the Lantern problem. Making the Lifted Status more like a Rhino Stomp might be better, but you lose out on the aesthetic of air combos I imagine.

A good compromise is giving Lifted Enemies is to bias the arc to be vertical and possibly slower, unaffected by more attacks on them, and/or improving tracking of melee attacks on them if you take to the air or follow them on the ground. As it is now, staying in position to follow a lifted enemy seems to be difficult.  However, this isn't the only problem with Lifted Status.

Lifted Status also doesn't seem worth it aside from the instrinsic value of incapacitation, which is redundant with knockdowns. Knockdowns also let you deal finisher damage to them. So to prevent redundancy, Lifted Status should provided something other than a damage boost and its crowd control so it doesn't overlap too much with Knockdown and it's ability to enable ground finishers. It also has to be something that can work with critical or status builds.

A suggestion would be to allow for increased Combo Counter Buffs on lifted enemies. Blood Rush/Gladiator, Condition Overload's above change suggestion, Weeping Wounds, and Heavy Attacks should all get an improved efficacy against Lifted Targets. This ties into the next point.
 

 

Heavy Attacks aren't worth their Cost

There is an opportunity cost to using your Heavy Attacks. While combo scaling is easier and building combo is much easier now too, especially with faster weapons but more on that in the next section, Heavy Attacks do not seem worth it. They're not satisfying either. They're not the dressing on an otherwise technique focused update to melee. They're too weak and you would have to use them more frequently to justify the combo depletion or they'd have to be much much stronger than they already are.

We have a variety of ways to fix this but allowing Heavy Attacks to scale better against Lifted enemies would be a step in the right direction, as stated above. However, there is one more suggestion I'd like to make to make the system even more cohesive.

Allow the combo to only be partially refunded when landing Heavy Attacks on either Lifted or Knockdown affected enemies. Making heavy attacks on their own stronger cannot justify the loss of the Combo Counter build up. It's way too meta to just hold onto Combo Counter forever. That is the focus of Naramon School after all. So allow for a skill based way to hold onto Combo Counter, such as conditions to be met. Anything is preferable. The mods that affect Heavy Attacks can only compete if Heavy Attacks are intrinsically valuable as an opportunity cost on their own. Snowballing is always preferable. So a way to snowball heavy attacks needs to be a thing or it can't detract too much from the endless combo snowball builds to be worth it.

Slow Attacks  and Weapons are Ineffective

People don't seem to find the combo build up to be feasible with slower weapons. Ironic, because the meta before favored big strong and slow weapons. This is exacerbated by the lack of good control and poor buffer mechanics that make things sloppy. It's simply much better to flail at the speed of light to build combo than measure your strikes.

Slow weapons are already weak in the sense that they can't apply much status too quickly. So they don't also need to be held back by slower damage ramping with combo.

The solution here might be as easy as a simple tweak to the combo scaling of slower swinging  weapons and attacks. As it is now, slow weapons cannot scale with faster ones, since even though pure status melee is sub-optimal now, that doesn't mean status is inherently weak. It's pretty important at end game. It's just pure status is weak compared to pure crit. This is exacerbated by the poor control of melee combo strings and input buffer. Something that'll be covered in the next segment.

 

Input Buffer makes controls unwieldy

 

Lastly, for a lot of weapons, the stationary combo doesn't lock onto the enemy that well from what I've seen. The moving combo also sends one overshooting the enemy. While this is great for cleaving through enemies that die in one hit, when you need to focus something smaller than a crowd down, melee can struggle. Especially without Range Mods. All the above problems are made worse by this as it forces one to potentially focus on fast, long range, critical or critical+status weapons, effectively reducing build diversity with only these style being what apparently feels good??? I'm not sure what the consensus is on this. What I do know for certain is that overshooting is a problem and part of the reason for that is - is that buffer window is too generous and commital, with the tactical dodge as a remedy being a little cumbersome to pull with with the requirement of two inputs (aim+dodge roll).

A really elegant solution that solves two birds with one stone is allowing for crouch to cancel the current combo string for the purpose of overriding your current commitment. Weaving Slide attacks would also accomplish this, allowing crouch, slide and slide attacks to reset a combo would allow for 1 button input to fix any buffer issues. Additionally, decrease the window in which buffered inputs are registered. These are all but suggestions based on observations. Please continue to do good work as I believe this melee rework has potential if fixed. I like what I see in regards to the positives. Let's just hash out the potentially unintended consequences.
 

 

Conclusion

As with all new updates, the launch is a little rocky. So I'm optimistic about all this. I like the potential this has and the pieces are falling in ways that I like what I see. Addressing some of the more popular complaints would be nice, but also expanding upon the positive changes this brings will add a ton of depth to Melee. I don't think it's a step backwards for melee at all, just not executed properly due to potential bugs and unintended math (maybe?). I look forward to hotfixes and updates.

This is pretty much verbatim what i came here to say. Seriously Devs. i'd like to add that the range for reach should be 2 and primed reach should be 4. that is all

 

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https://streamable.com/cj3yt

This video right here explains all my hate for melee 3.0 changes. The combo movements are clunky and annoyingly making me stuck to using one combo so I can constantly have movement when I melee SO NOW I AM STUCK FORCED TO USE 1 COMBO ON A STANCE. ruined my fun of 2400hrs in mission time and with U26.. I am done. And yes when you see me fling forward that from using the 1 combo that actually lets me move. I couldn't care less about the damage. It's just the combo flow.

 

Explain this new combo rework system to me.. This is not fun at all. I have arthritis (not to sound like its the end of the world for me and boo whoooo me but..) and well now it just hurts to play with melee. Less time I have to relax in between combos. Sorry DE.

Edited by .Versailles.

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can you guys PLEASE consolidate some of the focus passives of Naramon and Zenurik.

Make the current Naramon melee decay part of the combo mods....and move the heavy attack efficiency to naramon from zenurik and add in a streamline variant (because currently it is like a free reflex coil) to zenurik, which makes a FAR more sense than the current ones.

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51 minutes ago, Azimbee said:

Condition Overload is now a viable replacement for Primed Pressure point on weapons that proc status somewhat reliably already, at the cost of  having diminishing returns if both Pressure Point and Condition Overload are run. We've lost the scaling damage of Condition Overload, and only replaced a damage mod in the process. 

This effectively has gutted pure status weapons as a build option. However, I believe the solution should be pretty easy.

Introduce some of the multiplicative scaling of Condition Overload in the form of a combo counter scaling. That way, it's a replacement for pressure point and it returns some of that scaling damage back to pure status weapons. We can potentially knock out two birds with one stone here by producing an alternative to the 'mandatory' damage mod. Pressure Point for less status inclined weapons, and Condition Overload for the adequate status based ones as an alternative. A smaller exponential buff between the number of statuses and the combo counter might be ideal.

Anything is preferrable to gutting crit to put it in line with gutted status. So if an alternative solution can be found to remedy this drop in build diversity, I'm open to that.

Wow a nice solution I can agree with. They should 100% make CO multiplicative attach to combo counter like Blood Rush making it up the Blood Rush for Status Weapons

 

53 minutes ago, Azimbee said:

Heavy Attacks aren't worth their Cost

There is an opportunity cost to using your Heavy Attacks. While combo scaling is easier and building combo is much easier now too, especially with faster weapons but more on that in the next section, Heavy Attacks do not seem worth it. They're not satisfying either. They're not the dressing on an otherwise technique focused update to melee. They're too weak and you would have to use them more frequently to justify the combo depletion or they'd have to be much much stronger than they already are.

We have a variety of ways to fix this but allowing Heavy Attacks to scale better against Lifted enemies would be a step in the right direction, as stated above. However, there is one more suggestion I'd like to make to make the system even more cohesive.

Another problem with heavy attacks is their static animation and pause to charge. I feel that heavy attacks need to better flow with a combo rather than be one static slow animation. It completely stops whatever flow you previously had to perform this one charged attack always the same direction. The first step should be addressing that. For example the Tempo Royale Bold Reprise animation for the last hit in the combo can be changed into a heavy attack, even if its one animation its still better than the current one we have now as it gives flow from going mid combo into a heavy attack you can keep both and have the current heavy as the neutral heavy. I don't see this being implemented for a while tho since alot of stances haven't been reworked into the phase 2 of melee.

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So, now Naramon's Power Spike is worthless because heavy attacks drain all combo points.

Life strike is worthless because I have to stop and do a slow heavy attack to heal myself, breaking the fluidity of going full melee for survival without the need of a "tank" frame for it. 

Also, going for a build for combo multiplier + life strike is just worthless because against high level enemies I have to heal myself with life strike a lot...

Thank you DE, thanks a lot for completely destroying my survival melee gamestyle. After 5 years of playing, this is the worst thing you could've done. 

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il y a 16 minutes, VCDLucario43 a dit :

How can we activate the manually block ?

hold F to use full melee mode and then press right click mouse

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i'm really disapointed with sparring, i only use sparring weapons i really like it but they don't bring anything new to sparring stances i thinked they will bring new animatios for melees.

Grim fury: the foward combo is exactly the same it was, they just inverted the order of the moves, instead of 3 punches,1 front kick, 1 punch and upercut now is 3 punches, 1 punch upercut and end with the front kick, and the old combos is way more cooler than now ( the holding E combo was relly badass, and i loved this stance), the only cool combos is the block + E but it deal so low damage that make you don't use it. 

Brutal tide: this stance only have 2 combos foward + E and block + E and, the foward combo is very clunky, and the block combos is well... fine, but old brutal tide is way more brutal than now.

is sad to say that because for other weapon this new melee 3.0 is really badass, the daggers combos is awesome and then when you will see for sparring... it's bad

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On 2019-10-18 at 8:09 PM, lihimsidhe said:

tl;dr: Melee 3.0 mockup

All in all this rework looks pretty f**king incredible I must say.  As someone I think at least slightly influenced Melee 2.x,There is only one core suggestion I have:

Block Anytime, Anywhere. The Tenno either can execute a single command (single key or multi key press)  to block. Allow most actions to be cancelled into blocks. Blocking always should have been a fallback action for when a Tenno finds themselves in trouble regardless of what they are doing. This is a clear example how dedicated firearm/melee modes hold back Warframe's potential. Also I can't mention blocking in a serious manner without referencing this. 

 

Imagine a combat scenario where a Tenno is highly engaged with the enemy.  Suddenly, a huge attack suddenly comes barrelling towards them and they do not have time to dodge.  Only block.  What sounds more fun and natural to you:

A) At the last moment the Tenno stops firing his/her gun and brings up their arms in the nick of time to block the attack.  Perhaps timing the block could lead to parries.

B) The Tenno has to stop firing their weapon, put it away, wait for their melee weapon to get pulled out, and then block.  If they have the time to do this you know what they could have also done?  Just about anything else in the game including moving out of the way thereby defeating the point of blocking.

Being able to seamlessly use block at any time adds an amazing amount of utility to a player's toolkit. If DE did decide to implment an 'anytime, anywhere' block I would hope they reconsider blocking not always negating 100% of the damage in all cases (maybe except for parries?).  A weapon having variable block cones, block %, and possibly even parry windows gives DE more stats to experiment with that make sense.  Why throw this design space away needlessly?

Again the rework looks f**king AMAZING.  It does truly.  However, until DE discards the notion of dedicated firearms/melee modes completely Warframe will always be playing 2nd fiddle to its own 1st rate potential. I say this because action legends such as Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, Nier: Automota, etc, have shown such an incredible path forward by having one unified 'action combat' mode.  This doesn't mean there can't be an other way but Warframe's firearm/melee modes do not seem to be an improvement over what those legends have done.

Also it's worth really driving home DE could literally create the most incredible combat system known to man. However, if the enemies remain stuck as ants we crush with hammers, all this work to make combat more engaging becomes a somewhat moot point.  We are still hammers crushing ants and combos and in depth combat is a distant option to nuking dumb, enfeebled enemies that literally run to their slaughter.

Love you guys, the game you make, and the work you do. 🙂

Update 10/31/2019: The Old Blood

Can confirm that dedicated melee and firearm modes/focus on holstering are still indeed holding Warframe's combat back.  Dual wielding a glaive and a single hand sidearm exemplify this the most.  As in can not use heavy attack while dual wielding because heavy attacks are gated behind their own mode.

Can not use heavy attacks directly from firearms.  Player has to go firearms > quick melee attack to enable heavy attacks.  Which again... is awkward as it sounds.

Also very questionable why heavy attack needs its own key when it simply can be a charged attack.

Combos sort of have universal mapping.

Not all combos represent single attack focus OR AoE focus OR travel

Wall attacks had their travel distance nerfed into the absolute ground.

Heavy Slam Attacks FEEL very and look very good.

Combo counter as a resource is very interesting and opens up opportunities for 'combo efficiency build'.  However, Blood Rush + Body Count still supersedes most case uses of heavy attacks.

 

yea my complains about this rework is also the blocking  and didicated meele stance 
i think the moment player press "e" he should be in meele mod and can block auto or if he choses too
EX: (press "e" and auto block rocket and keep his guard up [because u already in meele mode]) vs ( press "f" w8 2 sec and press 2mb [and get with the rocket in the face because it took too long]) 

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I like the new combo system, just one hitch.

I can't seem to be able to use my thrown melee weapons as I used to.

I can't toss my wolf sledge anymore, did that become removed?

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Hokay... my playstyle is was heavily influenced by using covert lethality and a combo that by default will lead to a finisher.

That said, I don't mind the loss of the instakill of covert lethality, that went to the parazon which is still "sort of" an instakill mainly because you have to weaken an enemy to use it. For most content my weapons will deal massive amounts of finisher damage anyway so no big deal.

There is one mechanic/feature that irritated me and I noticed it as soon as I ran a spy where I usually stealth everything.

Why is stealth kill/finisher bound to the USE button? it's so awkward that this is the case because before this patch, finishers were bound to melee. it becomes a little easier to just wipe people out since you don't really have to think about it and the warframe just goes into finishers as you spam melee. 

It's more fun. I might be blind but I don't think finishers can change their keybinding last I checked because this did irritate me and I thought, "hey it's just a keybind, right?"

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Just here to chime in that I find having to main equip melee in order to block or use heavy air slams really unwieldy. It's a real drag when I have my exalted blade out, try to block, and aim instead.

Thanks to everyone at DE for their hard work, tho! I'm interested to see how things change as feedback is absorbed.

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Hey DE... we gotta talk about scythes... why you hate them so much? For Example, Stalking Fan has one combo, ONE! Even block have the same combo... you promised us that scythes will get heavy blade stances... or some new stances... so why you hate scythes so much? Same goes to Reaping Spiral...  ONE COMBO, ONE ANIMATION!

Edited by THeMooN85

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I mainly use Heavy Blades with Tempo Royale Stance, and in my opinion, this new update messed up the combos and animations

It feels like Replendent Calma (before E, E, Pause, E, E,E) was split in two as the new Majestic Abandon and Replendent Calma. And the foward momentum that you had with Replendent Calma and August Mesto are gone

I'm not an expert on this, but my opinion is:

- Majestic Abandon should stay as E, E, E, E as before update 26

- Replendent Calma (keeping the entire combo animations as the one before update 26 and forward momentum) as Forward+E, Forward+E, Forward+E, Forward+E, Forward+E , or sometihng like Majestic Abandon (doing thefirst two moves of it) and then go with 3 times Forward+E

- August Meto (keeping the entire combo animations as the one before update 26 and mobility) as Forward+Block+E, Forward+Block+E, Forward+Block+E, Forward+Block+E , or going first with Majestic Abandon (doing the first move from the combo) and then go with 3 times Forward+Block+E

- and Bold Reprise as Block+E, Block+E, Block+E

Right now, as of this update 26, Tempo Royale does not feel right

Edited by raposo90

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Alright, I've done some gameplay of the new melee system as well as the changes to the mods.

 

Lift Status Just isn't working too well. 

- Target just flies away after a single whack (Melee range just can't catch up)

 

We're stuck between keeping our feet planted on the ground and flying like a G6

- Depending on the combo of the melee weapon you can find yourself being launched too far forward (Especially if you go off a ledge. You just shoot off like a rocket). Even if you can whip the camera back around  quickly, you may not be able to reach them. (RIP Console players when this update reaches them)

 

The alternative is having to stay in one position where your enemy can get knocked too far out of range or put you in a precarious spot being surrounded by enemies. 

 

Crit is the Meta

- It just is. With the way Condition Overload now works, status-leaning weapons cannot hope to catch up to the might of the Blood Rush builds. There is now only one way to build them. 

 

Heavy Attacks

- Slower and weaker overall than the flurry of critical hits, and spends a large chunk of your combo counter. It's just not worth using unless we can get some serious damage output in a larger range out of them. 

 

Animation Locks are 

- It appears they have gotten even worse than before. Animation locks are now only broken when you just roll. It is no longer done when taking aim and blocking, so it's even clumsier than it used to be. It's not a good thing. This would have been really good for PvP mechanics too. 

 

 

Just a couple suggestions.

I know we have not yet gotten the whole melee rework yet. But I think that is the exact reason why we have these workshops. So here are a few ways to alleviate some of the problems. 

- Drastically improved enemy tracking: This is literally the only option that fixes both the lifting and the movement issue in one shot. Without being able to focus/target/train your aim towards the enemy like how all games of this format do, not only will make aerial even doable; but you'll also be able to put more weapons on an equal playing feel when in point blank range (Because RIP fists too) and you'll be doing consoles a favor too.

- Break animation lock: We need more methods to cancel combos in case we want to break out of animation locks. So many fighting games value this because this allows players to be able to break away when they know for a fact a counter attack is coming. There is literally no downside with this, and even increases the possible margin for skill. 

 

 

I also urge another look at Condition overload to find a way for Crit to not be the main meta of the melee game. 

 

PS: and for the LOVE OF MAROO'S LAST BEER, please let Rhino benefit from using melee blocking when he has his iron skin on.

Edited by RavingRoman
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I have a little question SO how do i throw my zenistar in this phase 2 melee 3.0 ?

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On 2019-11-02 at 6:01 AM, BLI7Z said:

So, now Naramon's Power Spike is worthless because heavy attacks drain all combo points.

Life strike is worthless because I have to stop and do a slow heavy attack to heal myself, breaking the fluidity of going full melee for survival without the need of a "tank" frame for it. 

Also, going for a build for combo multiplier + life strike is just worthless because against high level enemies I have to heal myself with life strike a lot...

I tried Life Strike with Umbra and the only feasible way to heal with it is to do Heavy Slam attacks, but that's still a far cry away from the way it used to play.

I now have to spend my combo and break up the flow of combat to heal (jump > look down > target enemy > Heavy Slam), whereas before the update I'd just toggle channeling and keep swinging.

Either Heavy attacks have to change (made more fluid, better way to do a heavy attack mid combo, change its cost, etc.), or Life strike has to change.

I don't get it DE, there are so many mods that are, for the lack of a better word, useless. Why not change them? A bit off topic, but seriously, you recognized the problem with primary/secondary mods, thats why we have Pexilus slots now. Not ideal but still better than leaving those mods to rot. Why not change some mods up?

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When i told people that the melee 2.5 update is and will be bad everyone laughed at me.

 

Well no one's laughing now 

 

It's safe to say...i think DE will pull out the same move they did before and ignore us for an entire year without fixing anything

Good luck you guys.

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I'm just here to ask how to get my Wukong to hit for red crits again. He feels dead, what was once a great stick now feels like a wet noodle compared to before. Crit feels bad now.

I love the new combo system, makes it a lot easier to pull combos and such but everything that depended on combos feels nerfed (blood rush no longer allows me to even hit red crits, or even orange for that matter unless my cat throws me a buff), Condition Overload no matter what anyone says is a massive nerf considering the cap on it and, despite not even using it for months, the fact that Maiming Strike was killed (even though Scott said on a devstream that you "don't want to kill spin2win and just want to break away from the meta that broke the game) is just mind boggling. Now the Stalker Acolytes are basically useless aside from maybe Argon Scope hunts.

I dunno, do the people who do these changes even play the game? I'm starting to think that, if DE's staff does play their own game, that they never leave enemies level 30 and up.

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8 hours ago, Nabelias said:

I have a little question SO how do i throw my zenistar in this phase 2 melee 3.0 ?

Mouse wheel has become your charged attack so that's probably it.

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