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Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE


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Just now, supernils said:

@Illgore So if I get this right, to break it down to one sentence:

in hard melee mode you want the quick melee key, which has no function in that mode currently, to be a quick ranged attack?

Yeah that's the intention. Why should the key has no use and thus leaving the hard melee mode handicapped? The DEVs always talk about equality between melee and guns but I don't see it any of the implementations so far. But this simple change would make the game for "hard melee" fans more fluid and would encourage them to use their guns more often on quick occasions. Something players who favor guns had all the time with quick melee. There is no reason to restrict "hard melee mode" like that.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 2020-04-13 at 5:56 PM, Illgore said:

Yeah that's the intention. Why should the key has no use and thus leaving the hard melee mode handicapped? The DEVs always talk about equality between melee and guns but I don't see it any of the implementations so far. But this simple change would make the game for "hard melee" fans more fluid and would encourage them to use their guns more often on quick occasions. Something players who favor guns had all the time with quick melee. There is no reason to restrict "hard melee mode" like that.

Hard melee block actually blocks 100% of incoming damage LOL. But again DE, where is part 3 of Melee 3.0?

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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)
On 2020-05-03 at 3:40 PM, CrimsonBladeZeta said:

Hard melee block actually blocks 100% of incoming damage LOL. But again DE, where is part 3 of Melee 3.0?

i think blocking should be more rewarding and parrying to have magical or teleportation rewards without arcanes or mods, at least which enfeeble loot and pickups, and procs are enhanced further, critical, passive traits added to the weapons stances and energy which is added to a meter, we have combo, but its barely anything visible, so there are so many mods which talk about combo counters have them give other benefits for players who dont know, +20 fire, or something added will solve alot of problems in some status and combo modules, blocking could grant simular enhancements or recoil mods, fire-rate up or fast primary or secondary shooting, a good mod allows for switing to the secondary with enhanced magicdamage or ability enhancements on empty but its not enough to miss out on serration and speed, so those mods should have +30 wind or battery fcharges which also give melee mods--primary and secondary weapons enhancing aughments to machineguns, snipers, and special reload features, for example a convert mod just uses bullets, but doesnt feature anything for the next melee attack like the energy channel module, so those two can be combined, or have a powershoot, or dodge/roll feature, air teleport, or trick shot, zoom adds strenght, abilities change the proc type on recast, or give melee attacks adherent properties. Overall melee lacks good reload and acrobatic benefits, and good aerial-loot revalent rewards, some good ideas are to allow enemy weapons to be used temporarily with finishers, or parazon to give melee "data" and energy which has occoult or dark properties, not just radiation and viral status, but new things which can only be seen in the air, or while sliding, after casting abilities or recasting/reloading,crouching like geomancers and magicians, indian smoke summuning a rune or spirit which gives the players a good melee or stance related ANIMAL RUNE or SYMBOL and gives focus and powers to each attack, these can have new finishers and transform enemies into powder, ice, and noise, distortion, sun, or special clan/syndicate attacks, can be based on stances and bought with platinum, but at least could have a set of moves to unlock or passives added with each endo, blocking, acrobatic melee needs teleportation, or tileset/weather improvements, rain, snow, and slam attack changes.

Edited by SnakeBadger
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Well, DE still left Exalted melee weapons in dust.... I don't even think they WILL work on melee system even again LOL. They are focusing on making unfinished content that triggers players are pretty crazy as a game developer. It is like they don't even care about their players and try to work on things that they think it is 'COOL', which really isn't because they don't even play their game or listen to the partner players. 

 

Half an year, still nothing, that's great DElay. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

Months since this update and having got the time to familiarize oneself with the changes.

All I can say is.. you all sure wrote a huge wall of text and made things sound unnecessarily complicated for what is effectively just spam E to win.

Technique. Blocking angle, "gap closer" attacks... etc. etc. so much stuff that ends up being entirely optional (i.e we can ignore it totally) when the surest and easiest way to destroy everything is mashing E.

Edited by Xepthrichros
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Posted (edited)
On 2019-10-18 at 2:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

THE FUTURE
   14) Channelling 2.0 AKA “Rage Mode” and Future Plans!

I find it strange that the combo system slowly increases and when loaded in 12x everything seems insignificant to the "super deadly blade", a combo system is presentative and treatal and your whole team can watch you eliminate a very difficult enemy that can only be shot down by a well-built combo, I would love for the combo system to be similar to the video below for high level units:

...and several enemies around us receiving small impact and area procs, and that enemy cannot be killed by the team until the dominant player misses or finishes

The accumulated combo should be used for something bigger but it would be interesting to use for global benefits and not to cause more damage to more weak units, there are a multitude of ideas in mind:

*in survival missions exchange for bonus life support ...
*in defense missions exchange for temporary invunerability or regeneration of the cryopod chamber ...
*Enable the use of skills without temporarily costing energy...
*Regenerate more energy temporarily...
*Temporarily make the frame invulnerable...

spending the combo counter on more damage is unnecessary because all enemies are insignificant after the 12x combo and all enemies are nerfed after the last updates to use heavy attacks

heavy attacks would be useful to bosses but most high-level bosses cannot be hit by heavy attacks

this feat of achievement would be done with the lack of mods like "drift contact" "body count" "Naramon Power Spike", I know it would cause a complete rework in the combo system including mission mods and specific frames but it's just an idea of how the combo system doesn't seem to exist

I don't know where the warframe is going...

Edited by Famecans
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vor 18 Minuten schrieb Famecans:

I find it strange that the combo system slowly increases and when loaded in 12x everything seems insignificant to the "super deadly blade", a combo system is presentative and treatal and your whole team can watch you eliminate a very difficult enemy that can only be shot down by a well-built combo, I would love for the combo system to be similar to the video below for high level units:

thats because DE refuses to consider what the sheer existence of combo mods does to the overall balance of melee/mods.

some mods are simply redundant due to the existence of others. for primaries there are alternatives which are slightly better or something ppl want to use like argon scope to add even more crit chance if they want to but they dont neccessarily make the base mods blatantly pointless.

hunter munitions is an exception because status is in a really bad spot balance wise and HM/slash + viral is pretty much the only combination thats not really, aside of heat as a singular element but it still wont compare to slash/viral, not even close.

melee on the other hand is in such a strange/bad spot in my opinion that its kind of pointless to use some mods simply because others exist. since the CO changes PPP is pointless and +dmg on rivens mostly, same goes for the buffed crit chance mods simply because its so easy to reach x12 combo and have 660% cc from one mod. the only exception are heavy attack builds but they still dont compare to the clear speed of regular combo builds overall so they are more nieche in my opinion. combo builds are clearly a meta right now/still, so it didnt change anything in that regard.

pair that with the bad spot status is in and its not just some melee mods being pointless 100% but also diversity in terms of elements is at deaths door, arguably. there wont be any change to that unless DE totally changes combo mods for real. i still think they were as much of a bad idea to add to the game as hunter munitions because they trivialize everything, the base weapon is nearly completely pointless right now even.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Xydeth said:

some mods are simply redundant due to the existence of others. for primaries there are alternatives which are slightly better or something ppl want to use like argon scope to add even more crit chance if they want to but they dont neccessarily make the base mods blatantly pointless.

I believe that the combined mods you mention is the META combination or as I usually call the damage pyramid

1st viral
2nd heat
3rd or 4th slash and puncture
5th Impact
Just have the pyramid in your weapon with only X damage + ccX% + scX% and your weapon will dominate the game completely, the only enemies that are not affected by this pyramid are the sentients and boss as teralyst or hemocyte but this is only 5% of the game

Zhj96u4.png

1 hour ago, Xydeth said:

hunter munitions is an exception because status is in a really bad spot balance wise and HM/slash + viral is pretty much the only combination thats not really, aside of heat as a singular element but it still wont compare to slash/viral, not even close.

really, hunter munitions, this mod is useless for its main use (hunter modset + mecha modset, I spent more than 14 forma testing it) but "hunter munitions" is extremely useful to partially correct some weapons

DE needs to recognize and create mods similar to "hunter munitions" for other types of damage, mods to use percentage of heat damage and convert to percentage of slash damage, impact, puncture, elementals, etc ... just put the mods so that the players themselves can correct all weapons and finally some mods to correct critical chance and status chance in exchange for other exaggerated attributes in each weapon

the problem with the damage pyramid is that DE is always changing the main element

Edited by Famecans
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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Famecans:

I believe that the combined mods you mention is the META combination or as I usually call the damage pyramid

1st viral
2nd heat
3rd or 4th slash and puncture
5th Impact
Just have the pyramid in your weapon with only X damage + ccX% + scX% and your weapon will dominate the game completely, the only enemies that are not affected by this pyramid are the sentients and boss as teralyst or hemocyte but this is only 5% of the game

Zhj96u4.png

really, hunter munitions, this mod is useless for its main use (hunter modset + mecha modset, I spent more than 14 forma testing it) but "hunter munitions" is extremely useful to partially correct some weapons

DE needs to recognize and create mods similar to "hunter munitions" for other types of damage, mods to use percentage of heat damage and convert to percentage of slash damage, impact, puncture, elementals, etc ... just put the mods so that the players themselves can correct all weapons and finally some mods to correct critical chance and status chance in exchange for other exaggerated attributes in each weapon

the problem with the damage pyramid is that DE is always changing the main element

is this supposed to be a joke ?

sry, but i cant understand it as anything else....

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Xydeth said:

is this supposed to be a joke ?

sry, but i cant understand it as anything else....

 

the chance of status is divided into each type of damage based on the value of digits and the most consistent sequence is viral, heat, slash, puncture and impact, the sequence needs to be exactly this and the perfect damage distribution creates a sequence of procs, damage predominant benefiting the next damage in the sequence, I know this might look like a joke I just resembled a pyramid xD

Cj19V37.png

in the weapon above (boar prime) the impact proc is predominant because the impact damage is the largest number and that's bad (the amount of pallets does not influence the predominant proc and this can be proven in other weapons such as rubico prime, with predominant impact damage will hardly go process slash) so for the slash to be present the digits damage needs to be greater than the impact damage

i'm using a translation tool to communicate with you and i can't explain in detail but you can try

Edited by Famecans
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vor 15 Stunden schrieb Famecans:

the chance of status is divided into each type of damage based on the value of digits and the most consistent sequence is viral, heat, slash, puncture and impact, the sequence needs to be exactly this and the perfect damage distribution creates a sequence of procs, damage predominant benefiting the next damage in the sequence, I know this might look like a joke I just resembled a pyramid xD

Cj19V37.png

in the weapon above (boar prime) the impact proc is predominant because the impact damage is the largest number and that's bad (the amount of pallets does not influence the predominant proc and this can be proven in other weapons such as rubico prime, with predominant impact damage will hardly go process slash) so for the slash to be present the digits damage needs to be greater than the impact damage

i'm using a translation tool to communicate with you and i can't explain in detail but you can try

why do u try to explain status ?

HM is the single most powerful mod right now. no clue why u try to explain status and then drop a statement like

vor 19 Stunden schrieb Famecans:

really, hunter munitions, this mod is useless for its main use (hunter modset + mecha modset, I spent more than 14 forma testing it) but "hunter munitions" is extremely useful to partially correct some weapons

just as a side note: even if u add a 0 behind ur 14 forma invested, thats still not worth mentioning as an argument really. if u dislike HM thats ur thing and fine, i also hate it, but its power is a fact and u dont really need to justify ur taste in terms of build preferrence.

no clue what u want to say with that "triangle" but slash has been the only important IPS stat for years as long as a weapon has any means to naturally procc slash. the changes to its 4x prio compared to elementals didnt change a lot in that regard, it just messed with the ratio and builds on some weapons, making +slash a nieche but important stat on some weapons builds to push it a bit above viral or makes HM +viral the better option instead considering consistency.

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vor 17 Minuten schrieb Petroklos:

nerf slash and viral already

no, buff the rest.

slash viral surely was great in the past, but the reason why its definite meta right now is the fact that other proccs, mainly its direct competition corrosive and gas got nerfed for pretty much no reason.

when u nerf the competition then naturally what remains will be dominating.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Xydeth said:

no, buff the rest.

slash viral surely was great in the past, but the reason why its definite meta right now is the fact that other proccs, mainly its direct competition corrosive and gas got nerfed for pretty much no reason.

when u nerf the competition then naturally what remains will be dominating.

oh so we're actually being serious about the new Damage System in a thread that's not about it and is 8 months old. Ok.

all ideas are additions on top of their existing effects, unless stated otherwise

Impact:

  • Impact Procs increase the HP% at which Mercy Kills would happen by 1%, for a total 15% compared to base 5%. (Could be pushed up to 2% for 25%).
  • Gives target half as second of "undeath". Kneeling like Thralls, dies after that half second or if he gets shot again during that half second.
  • Mercy Kills have some innate Bonus, like rolling twice for Loot and Orbs.
    • People sleep on how useful Mercy Kills on Demand with Blood for Health+Energy(+Ammo for some Weapons) are.
    • A short duration of true invulnerability on Mercy Trigger, to help against accidental finishing them off with Automatic Weapons might be helpful, or it might be more annoying than anything else.

Puncture:

  • Each Proc adds Punch Through when shooting that Target. Explosive Weapons ignore it (or Explode -> Pass Through -> Explode again if they hit again)
  • Honestly I just can't think of anything better

Slash, Toxin, Heat and Electric are fine. Electric could get Gas's increasing AoE per Stack, but I don't think it's needed.

Cold:

  • On its 10th Proc, the Target completely Freezes and opens up to Melee Finishers.
  • On non-lethal Finishers, the Ice Shatters and the Cold Status Effects get removed.
    • Fine tuning if it removes all Cold Status Effects or some of them.

Blast:

  • Sets Target on Fire.
    • Maybe on an AoE, could scale like Gas.
    • Triggering one of its Base Elements on an AoE is based off of old Gas, so it might not fit as much nowadays.

Gas:

  • Let it Scale off of Heat and Toxin Mods, because it currently doesn't.
    • Fine tuning if its moddedDamage*(1 + toxinMods + heatMods)*(1 + factionMods) or moddedDamage*(1 + toxinMods)*(1 + heatMods)*(1 + factionMods)

Magnetic:

  • First Magnetic Proc removes Shield Gating.
  • Next Magnetic Procs "Overcharge" the Target's Shields by 5%. On Shield-Break, the Target takes damage equal to his Total Shield Points * Mag Stacks * 5%.
    • Maybe an AoE, could scale like Gas, has fall off from center of explosion like AoE Weapons do.
    • The Status Effect ends up becoming too busy with +Damage on Shields, +Blocks Shield Regen, +Removes Shield Gating, +Shields Explode, but I don't see how else it can become strong enough that it'll be worth to mod for.
  • Edit: Magnetic can also be improved from its current state, by just adding more Enemies like the Kyta Raknoid, with tons of Shields, Shield Regen, Special Shield Regen Phases and Overshields.

Corrosive:

  • Deals +75% Damage against all Armor Types, like Magnetic does with Shields.
    • No reason to not be the King vs Armor, now that Viral is so #*!%ing strong and Armor is significantly nerfed.

Viral:

  • Deals -25% Damage against all Armor and Shield Types.
  • Extra Damage per Stack normalized from +100% on First +25%*9 on the rest, to +30% on each. (325% reduced to 300%, oh no what a nerf)
    • This Element can't avoid a nerf if it's to not be the undisputed kind. This is the tamest way I can think of.

Radiation:

  • Affected Enemies deal True Damage to their Faction.
  • Reduces the Target Priority of Players and their Allies on all Affected AI (assuming it doesn't do that already).
  • Enemies take and deal increased Damage from and to other Enemies.
    • Remains kinda bad on Mid Levels but becomes really good way earlier than it does now.

 

Or, you know, just significantly nerf Viral.

 

Hey, and while we're at it, Hybrid Builds will remain the best if nothing is done about it, so how about we introduce 4 new Corrupted Mods for all Weapon Types:

  • Corrupted Crit Chance:
    • +150% Crit Chance
    • -60% Status Chance
  • Corrupted Crit Damage:
    • +120% Crit Damage
    • -75% Status Duration
  • Corrupted Status Chance:
    • +120% Status Chance
    • -75% Crit Chance
  • Corrupted Status Damage:
    • +XX% Damage per Status Effect on Target
    • -60% Crit Damage.
    • Yes it's Condition Overload for all Weapon Types, no it shouldn't be even as close to that strong.

Main goal is to give some even stronger Crit or Status Specific Mods than what we already have. Numbers are extremely napkin math, probably need to be pushed much further.

Edited by Petroklos
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Posted (edited)
vor einer Stunde schrieb Petroklos:

Gas:

  • Let it Scale off of Heat and Toxin Mods, because it currently doesn't.
    • Fine tuning if its moddedDamage*(1 + toxinMods + heatMods)*(1 + factionMods) or moddedDamage*(1 + toxinMods)*(1 + heatMods)*(1 + factionMods)

procc needs to cause AoE toxin again too. just saying. pointless otherwise. its not about the numbers alone and scaling with mods.

Edited by Xydeth
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19 minutes ago, Xydeth said:

procc needs to cause AoE toxin again too. just saying. pointless otherwise. its not about the numbers alone and scaling with mods.

No they don't, raw damage is fine as long as you can focus the strongest enemy of a group and kill the rest of it with the AoE. And we certainly don't need three Elements that counter Shields, especially when it's both Combined Elementals of a pair doing so.

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vor 31 Minuten schrieb Petroklos:

No they don't, raw damage is fine as long as you can focus the strongest enemy of a group and kill the rest of it with the AoE. And we certainly don't need three Elements that counter Shields, especially when it's both Combined Elementals of a pair doing so.

noone cares about shields...

 

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Are we really going to suggest a change to elementals, which some warframe abilities do inflict, essential wrecking (unbalancing) some Warframes across the board?

Not to mention, wouldn't any change affect us as well? And I'd f**king love to get my Shieldgate destroyed, even if it's temporary.

Zitat

Enemies take and deal increased Damage from and to other Enemies.

When being affected by Rad, everything is an enemy. If enemies deal more damage to it's own kind, I want a damage reduction on Tenno vs Tenno.

Because some people have no idea what Radiation does and Rad Sorties are always a suicide squad.

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On 2019-10-18 at 12:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

 

6. Changes to Slam Attacks
The ragdoll effect of the Slam Attack is being removed (with some weapon-specific exceptions *cough*JatKittag*cough*), however it is being replaced with an effect that will push enemies back or knock them down, giving the player some breathing room, and setting the enemy units up for follow-up attacks.

Melee Rework: Phase 1 introduced the global use of ragdoll effects on Slam Attacks, so this is the second item to be rolled back, and replaced with a better way to rain down death from above! A .gif shows this off better than words alone, so enjoy a visual of what to expect: 

MP2-HeavySlamAttacks.gif

 

 

yeah hey how do i bullet jump straight up with out looking up first? 

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On 2020-06-07 at 9:45 AM, xdeathhungerx said:

yeah hey how do i bullet jump straight up with out looking up first? 

Just aim cursor to floor and bullet jump which will launch you straight up. Sometimes it will launch you at an angle depending on base you are standing on.

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