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Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE


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The one concern I really have is that the changes to combo/base stats help alleviate the necessity of running drifting contact/body count. Really hoping that the new combo/ heavy attack system helps combo duration become more of a playstyle choice rather than remaining mandatory.

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So, changes to combo counter, removal of channeling... But no mention of how certain Focus abilities will be affected?

Naramon "Power Spike" passive lets the combo counter decay slowly over time when out of combat, instead of all at once. I don't see this needing a major change, but it DOES touch affected systems.

More importantly, Zenurik "Inner Might" passive gives (at max) 60% channeling efficiency. But with no channeling anymore, what have I invested my focus points into? What can replace it, but still fit with the "energy" theme of the Zenurik school? (Same effect as the "Reflex Coil" mod, i.e. heavy attacks only consume a portion of combo counter? Increased Warframe ability efficiency?)

Edited by Mujaki
Parallels with Reflex Coil
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Hiya! Okay so, I know we haven't really seen how the stat changes are going to be officially played out besides the change in Base Damage. But if I may... I just wanted to ask for an increase in the status chance of the MR rank 0 swords. Especially ones like the Jaw Sword, Pangolin sword, Skana, or the Ether Sword. Right now they're at 10%(12% for Pangolin) and with another MR 0 weapon, the Heat Sword, that has very similar stats except it has 20% status chance. I'd like for it to be considered to raise the status of the other swords up to 15 or 20%. Those swords have a special place in my heart... and Id love to see even the smallest of changes like this to make them more usable with a riven in every day missions. 

 

Anyways, finished reading the changes and I can't wait to see how they end up playing out!

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1 hour ago, Famousguy221 said:

RIP CO

As someone who recently got it, getting to even 4 status effects is a pain in the rear, requiring weapon switching or ability usage to accomplish unless you're high enough to already be in massive trouble. Otherwise things are simply dying before you get stacked up. If they bring it to 90% per Status effect, it'll cap out above what 4 Status effects have now, with more damage during the ramp up period and taking much less work to reach. At 120% per Status Effect, you can exceed the current 5-effect damage multiplier.

With the increase to base damage, which seems to be around 80% given the Skana example, the overall performance of high-end Status weapons should be fairly similar, if not generally improved, unless you've come completely off the deep end for Status stacking to get to 7 effects constantly. Before the preceding double-digit multipliers kill them, mind you.

I'd also prefer to see the balance point on the new Reach be rather high, so that we can observe full jank with six-meter Daggers (which would fit a 0.5m per rank Primed Reach). For reference, Titania's Dwati dash has a 10m. range. Of course, jank could be reduced significantly with Energy effects based on the Tekko Prime's blade-things displaying the increased range.

1 hour ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

So across the board nerfs for melee's ability to scale? Cool

Not necessarily for Status weapons, especially more casually. As listed above, it doesn't take too much to keep the more realistic to reach Status number bonuses, and the increase to base damage looks to be on the order they'll probably go for Condition Overload. So look at as being locked to the current 6-effect value as your ceiling, but needing only half the Status effects, so the weapon will do it just fine on its own. Lower ceiling, technically, but we're talking 17x listed damage already and previously requiring two weapons and/or a Warframe ability to realistically reach.

There's no content in the game vaguely appropriate for that on a weapon worth using, unless you count ego-stroking endurance runs that the devs have repeatedly acted to suppress. The current Blood Rush is in a similar boat of being wildly more powerful than the game needs, but again, the increased baseline should be able to substitute for anything the devs intend to happen, as what it's applying to seems to have a x4 multiplier to begin with, stacking with all other damage increases and running on (some of) the Channel mods. We're talking what looks to be routinely doubling to tripling the floor of melee, with Heavy Attacks being a further tripling to quadrupling.

Edit: Reason for only quoting off the first page was because I expected the important criticisms to all be there

Edited by Banelingline
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This is a copy and past of a post that I put up about this subject. These is just some things I would like to see out of melee 3.0.

(warning very long)

 

New Stances

When melee 3.0 comes out, it would be great if they could bring out some new stance mods for them, two at least. There are some weapons I really want to use but the stances are not that good which to me no matter how strong the weapon is, the stances let it down.

Here are some weapons that needs some new stances;

·       Sparring

·       Staff

·       Whip

·       Nunchaku

·       Warfans

·       Sword and Shield

·       Scythe

·       Tonfas

·       Blade and Whip

·       Rapier

 

Hopefully DE can also make some more new unique weapons, maybe take some inspiration from RWBY`s weapon arsenal.

 

Weapons I would like to see more of;

·       Claws

·       Scythes Blade and Whips

·       Staffs

·       Katanas

·       Daggers

·       Duel Daggers

·       Sparring

·       Machetes

·       Warfans

 

Combos and attack animations

Even though the order of Wukong`s attacks are different to what it was previously, I don`t think you should change the order of the attack animations for other weapons (including exalted weapon stances) but instead add them to combos that makes sense to the animation.

For an example the spinning needle stance, true kiss can be the stand still combo, (button mashing combo) Accursed whispers can be the block combo, fay intervention can be the moving forward combo and second fay intervention (forward combo) can be the closing the gap combo. (blocking and moving forward)

 

Suggestions for different weapon types

 

Spoiler

Swords:

Note – The running animation when equipping should be put back the way it was. At the moment, it looks like the frame is getting ready to charge for a finishing strike.

Note – Leave the front finisher the way it is or just make it a forward stab, the one shown on the dev stream looks weird.

 

Katnas:

Note - One thing I would like to see is, for them to be used out of the sheath when equipped. (which I see people talk about)

Slide attack - increase its speed.

 

Two-Handed Katanas:

Fix - When doing a finisher, sometime it doesn`t kill the enemy and you`re not on top of the enemy.

 

Duel Swords:

Note - The finisher animation is great however it doesn’t suit it with duel swords. The animation could be the frame turning his back to the enemy stabbing them with both swords making an x with them.

Note – I would like to see duel katanas in the future that used duel sword stances.

 

Heavy Blades:

New back finisher - The animation should be a powerful side swing like your swinging a baseball bat trying to hit the ball. The finisher we have now looks better and makes sense with scythes. 

 

Sword & Shields:

Blocking ability - Blocking should be able to block all incoming damage and the damage stored up should be released in any three attacks.

Unique blocking – Blocking while on the move should ragdoll enemies.

New ground slam – The animation is the warframe divebombing the shield into the ground.

 

Daggers:

Unique ground slam -  instead of causing a ragdoll is should do increased damage with a guaranteed slash proc and draw enemies closer to the point of impact.

 

Duel Daggers:

When doing a ground slam, instead of causing a ragdoll is should do increased damage with a guaranteed slash proc and draw enemies closer to the point of impact.

 

Rapiers:

New slide attack – Instead of a swipe, the animation should be a thrust that knocks the enemy off its feet.

 

Machetes:

New back finisher – The animation should be a diagonal slash. This animation makes sense for the prova or any future blunt weapons.

 

Gunblades:

Note - Decrease the delay in-between shots.

 

Claws:

New front finisher – The animation is the frame doing an uppercut stab in the neck then the other hand slashing the enemy’s neck.

 

Tonfas:

New ground finisher – It should have the frame shoving both ends of the tonfa into the enemy. This makes sense tonfas are mostly blunt weapons.

Glitch - They are held wrong in the warframe`s hand when extracting while having it equipped.

 

Scythes:

New back finisher – The animation puts the enemy on their knees, puts the blade to their necks and pulls back. This will look like its performing an execution.

 

Glaives:

Note - After the first hit, it should be able to seek out and hit enemies more often. The best weapons that does this successfully is Nezha`s 2nd ability, the falcor and the phahd scaffold.

Note - The button to throw the glaives should be separate from the melee attacks button. I suggest it to be the secondary fire plus the aim mechanic should be able to hit multiple enemies. After throwing the glaive, aim at an enemy makes the glaive come back to striking the enemy and after throwing the glaive, instead of the warframe being disarmed the warframe should be able to perform some punches and kicks like when you get captured by zenuka, these punches and kicks will a chance to stagger and knockdown enemies.

 

Warfans:

Slide & air attacks – Preforming them should cause to hit multiple enemies with a ragdoll.

 

Hammers:

New back finisher - The animation should be a powerful side swing like your swinging a baseball bat trying to hit the ball. The finisher we have now looks better and makes sense with scythes.

 

Slide Attack - Performing this should send enemies flying across the room.

Fists:

Slide Attack – A successful hit should uppercut the enemy up into the air.

 

Sparring:

Slide Attack - This should send enemies flying across the room.

 

Staffs:

Front Finisher – The animation should be where the warframe spins round with the staff which knocks them out.

 

Polearms:

Fix: When performing a finisher, the weapon looks like it has shrunken in size.

 

Whips:

Note: I don`t own any whips so I’m just going to talk about what I would like to see from this.

Charge attack – The first attack makes it spin in a spiral, hitting multiple enemies in front and behind you and knocks them down and the second charge attack pulls an enemy towards you.

Slide attack – Preforming this attack will hit multiple enemies and ragdoll them.

Air attack – The causes to strike straight down the middle striking either one or more enemies.

16

 

Exalted Weapons:

Wukong

New ground slam – the animation is wukong hanging onto a massive version of his staff slamming the end of it into the ground like one of his combos.

Finishers – All Wukong`s animations for his staff should look different compared to other staffs.

Unique ability – When charging his melee weapon, he spins around knocking enemies down.

Unique ability – When blocking, he can store unlimited raw damage which can be released it in his charge attack, slam attack and with the 3rd ability swipe attack.

Visuals – Since it`s a unique weapon, it visually should reflect its uniqueness.

Glitch - When preforming the animation with no weapons equipped, you can`t see the staff. (this has been like this ever since he was released)

 

Valkyr

Note – Since Valkyr is invulnerable when using claws, take away the ability to block attacks, there is no reason for Valkyr to block.

New charge attack – Preforming this will show Valkyr with her arm out in a V shape and then both claws slashing the enemy in front of her causing a knockdown and a slash proc.

 

Small changes to melee weapons;

Note: I know some of these points is something DE has said they were going to do, I’m just putting them down for reminders and that I agree with them plus some of my ideas are mixed in also.

·       The aiming radicle turns yellow to let you know you`re going to do a ground finisher.

·       Increase speed of all finisher animations.

·       Have the ability to lock-on to a single enemy in a 20m radius. (block button) This will help with every stance attack animation to target the enemy.

·       Take away the ability to auto-block, this slow your movement, interrupts finishing your combos and you lose the ability to glide in the air using melee weapons.

·       Show the range of melee weapons in the stats menu.

·       Increase the speed of all slide attacks.

·       When performing a wall attack, make the strike home in on the enemy you`re aiming at within 15m.

·       Have the ability to interrupt your combo to doge or escape.

·       Get rid of the left and backwards combos, they both restrict your movements.

·       Show the weapon`s reach in the stats menu.

·       When blocking a knockdown, the animation is the warframe blocking like it`s using a sword. Make each weapon use the same animation as a normal block.

·       “Devil trigger” mode should fill up a gauge by killing. When filled it should increase melee weapon`s damage, attack speed and increase warframe`s movement speed for a short duration.

·       The sounds of impacting enemies with a melee weapons should be different. (striking flesh, metal armour)

·       There are some weapon finishers that has two parts to the animation and if the enemy can be killed in one hit, they will die in the first hit in the animation. Instead of that, make the first part take half of their health and the second part take the other part of their health. Two examples of weapons that have two finisher animations are katanas front finishers and heavy blades back finishers.

·       Charge attacks if aiming an enemy should propel you towards them to close the gap.

·       If channelling still exists in the melee 3.0, blocking while channelling should reflect damage increasing critical and status chance.

·       Stances that has the weapon thrown in the animation should have a reach of 7m.

 

I think Instead of making the shoot trigger (controller) switch weapons make the reload button able for you to switch (which it does anyways) or just make the aim trigger to switch and put the block button back to the shoot button when using melee with this, you are able to block and switch weapons.

 

Arial combos

·       A charge attack while holding the block button will send enemies into the air.

·       Preforming different combos should do different things.

·       Button mashing will keep you in the air longer to perform more combos.

·       Forward combo will not only make you and the enemy move in that direction, the last part of the combo will do a small ragdoll

·       The holding left trigger combo (controller) on the third combo will sent you and the enemy plummeting down on the ground dealing more damage to enemies.

·       Certain weapon types will have different outcomes for uniqueness e.g. left trigger combo while using a heavy blade will ragdoll multiple enemies while duel daggers will have a guaranteed increased critical chance by 15% and critical damage by 2.0.

·       Arial combos will include exalted weapon and will perform some unique actions;

Wukong – While preforming combos, pressing the jump button will make him vault off the enemy making him jump higher in the air gives him an extra double jump.

 

Valkyre – She is able to perform charge attacks in the air which will do more damage.

 

Excalibur – Preforming air combos will make him summon two exalted blades. (just visuals no bonus stats)

 

Baruuk - One of his combos will cause him to kick the enemy in the direction the radical is facing, causing other enemies hit to be knocked down.

 

Abilities

Ash – He can teleport to an enemy in the air, preforming an air finisher and leaping off them which will give him one granted finisher on the next enemy. Preforming blade storm on an enemy in the air will make the enemies move slower the more health they lose. (if enemy is still alive)

 

Garuda - If enemy dies while in the air, they will be dismembered.

 

Finisher Animation

While it might be good to watch, I don`t think it`s necessary to add this feature. For the reason that it takes away the movement and slows combat down plus you will be vulnerable to enemy attacks so please don`t add this.

 

These are my opinions of things I want to see out of this.

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3 minutes ago, Banelingline said:

As someone who recently got it, getting to even 4 status effects is a pain in the rear, requiring weapon switching or ability usage

Cycron allows 5 status procs in the blink of an eye. This does constitute weapon swapping, but its a non-issue since the swap from gun to melee is instant
As for no content in the game vaguely appropriate for that on a weapon worth using, the same could be said of a lot of stuff. Some slight nerfs to melee is fine, but nothing as drastic as what seems to be the case here.

Edited by (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom
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I share some of same concerns about these proposed changes, but I choose to have faith in DE.  They have put a ton of work into this and have an amazing track record of listening to feed back.  All the toxic haters out there should be ignored.  Thank you DE for all your hard work and I look forward to this new coat of paint.

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This sounds like a nerf to long range zaws and polearms, as Maiming, P.Reach and CO are nerfed, in order to open the meta to other types of weapon, which on the contrary are getting range buffs.

Obviously gotta get my hands on it before saying anything, but i won't deny i'm slighty worried. 

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25 minutes ago, CodeUltimate said:

I'm not asking for builds lol. I'm just saying that these changes aren't useful for a game like warframe.

Just because they aren't useful doesn't mean they aren't good.

Scaling forever is also part of what makes the content the game is actually designed around irrelevant in terms of engagement. Something useful in that CO, Blood Rush meta would be something that benefitted them. But a good change is, ultimately, to nerf them.

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2 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Forward Combo (Forward + Melee) - This allows you to attack without initially interrupting movement with the first 1-3 swings (depending on the weapon Stance). The last attack in the sequence will loop seamlessly into the first, so that you can keep a level of mobility while attacking.

This is likely to be mentioned 12 times in the thread already, but I am hoping that this lack of movement interruption is universal throughout the forward combos of weapons. It, flat out, feels janky to be pressing forward with a Shimmering Blight-stanced Polearm that has free movement - and then suddenly locks the player in place. I want to go forward, dangit. I would hope the same for the neutral combo, so that players can juke side to side while attacking (i.e. can attack to the side while moving forward - not as big, but I think important).

Alternatively, or perhaps additionally, it might be worth considering having hold-dodge (i.e. current Sprint key) for the Forward Combo, and making the Neutral Combo lack movement interruption? Sprinting is like blocking in that both are state changes in the current design. Moving doesn't change state: we can do anything while moving. Tying the Forward Combo to hold-dodge would keep all combo alternatives to state-change buttons, instead of tying one to a movement button, but it would keep the "forward" concept given that Sprinting = run forward. So there's still the intuitive link, at least for as long as auto-sprinting isn't a thing.

It also totally frees up movement keys for micro adjustments where even block-dodging can be too big. E.g., if a player finds themselves just out of range but doesn't want to hug the enemy, or wants to fluidly slash through a group of enemies without janky stops or dodges that might put them out of step.

Even if that's just an option in the keybinds (though I think it should be the default), that would be gorgeous.

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2 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

THE GAMEPLAY
   1 ) The Return of Equipped Melee and Manual Blocking!
   2 ) Dodge Cancelling and Tactical Dodging

Neat! Thanks for bringing equipped melee, manual blocking, and melee aim glides back. Dodge cancelling is an amazing addition and Taactical dodges  look quite promising, looking forward to them.

2 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

THE COMBOS
   3 ) Stance Changes, Combos and You!
   4 ) Smoother Combo Transitions
   5 ) Combo Counter Rework

Really hoping for melee combo effects to have a normalized execution like conclave melee stances do (you know, like how the current block combo is a gap closer that impairs enemies while pause one includes a knockdown regardless of weapon equipped). This added to the new more intuitive melee would help a lot to make melee stances easier to use since a player would already have an idea of what to expect from each combo on a stance.

2 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

THE TOOLS
   6 ) Changes to Slam Attacks

Hopefully these don't transfer to PvP, still an aamzing addition to PvE.

2 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

   7 ) Goodbye Channeling, Hello Heavy Attacks and Lifting!

Not sure how to feel about this since, saying goodbye to channeling also means saying goodbye to channel block, which is a really neat but underused tool in the game. I guess there will be no more kills like these for a while:

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

I guess it's too late to ask for deflecting to be kept, so i really, really hope for it to be brought back somehow in stage 3

2 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

   8 ) Weapon Stats, Mastery Limits and General Melee Changes

Looking forward to these changes, and hoping for conclave balance to not be forgotten like in the Primary and Secondary weapons balance pass

2 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

   9 ) Mod Rebalancing / Functionality

What will happen to mods like Mortal Conduct and Amalgam Javlok Magazine Warp? In the whole post i don't see any mention of what's gonna happen to damage deflection, a feature currently tied to channel blocking which is getting removed until Rage Mode is introduced.

2 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

   11) The Screens: Arsenal Changes

That's amazing, can't wait for a similar addition to primary and secondary weapons since stuff like projectile flight speed or pellet count aren't visible on it.

2 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

THE FUTURE
   14) Channelling 2.0 AKA “Rage Mode” and Future Plans!

As probably one of the few players who will miss channeling and deflecting, i'm really looking forward to the addition of this mode and hoping for it to *not* be locked behind some arbitrary progression wall.

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Since heavy attacks will be on the alt fire button, can we finally be able to hold down the melee attack key to keep doing combos, instead of having to painfully spam the button?

Can the forward attack combo please let us run at full speed while attacking, throughout the entire combo, forever?

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1 hour ago, Voltage said:

 

  • Slowing down the player. The fluidity of the combos on streams and in demos are really cool, however they look flashy and slower compared to current melee quick attacking + sliding. This may result in death compared to a slide attack. I am unsure how this plays in an Arbitration or higher level missions, so I will wait more to see if what I said holds true.

Definitely worth noting the skana in the devstream had something like 0.6  0.8 attack speed so of course it looks slower, we'll have to wait and see. Crimson dervish is already a slow/janky looking stance so it's probably about the same

Edited by Ramflare
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