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Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE


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With all due respect on all of this;

2 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

While select changes are to be rolled back (yes - see below before you react), the rest of the system served as a good foundation for this much more expansive Phase 2.

Please bear in mind that these changes are not set in stone, and some aspects of the new Melee system will be tweaked during the usual QA process. There are some more features being added later on, introduced in Melee Rework Phase 3 at a later date.

To be honest, I thought we were in Stage two of Melee, and this update was going to finally see the last of it implemented.  Then again, this feels more like the few that cried the loudest about how the new Melee system ruined them looking bad ass in front of their "friends" or random's, instead of perhaps listening to those that use melee as a main form of attacking. Then again, I dare commit two great sins of the game, with one being I play solo and two main melee.

Now with that bemoaning of this reversal of changes in place I must say I do like the look of the heavy attack, and in some ways reminds me of Rhino's stomp ability. I would be interested to see how this affects my own game play, and may see me pick up and use the broken war or a few other little used weapons.

2 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Weapon Stats and Mastery Limits
With this new change, there is a broad-sweeping review of Melee weapons and how they function with the new system. Expect the following changes to all melee weapons across the board:

  • Mastery Rank - Weapons will be reviewed to make sure their function and power are aligned with an appropriate Mastery Rank, similar to passes made on Primary and Secondary weapons. Full details will be in the Update Notes! 
  • Base Damage - Since the Combo Multiplier will apply to Heavy Attacks only, the base damage of all melee weapons is going to significantly increase. Expect to see some big numbers! Full details will be in the Update notes, but every weapon is going up. 
  • Base Range - Along with damage, range is also being increased to make sure you get the most chop for your buck. While base range is being increased, Range Mods are going to have a different calculation applied to them. This is detailed in Section 9.
  • Mod and Arcane Channeling Functionality - As mentioned above, any Mods or Arcanes with functionality tied to Channeling will have their stats altered to increase Lifted Status, Heavy Attack damage and Combo Counter modifiers.

 

I see nothing good coming from the reworking of the Mastery Rank. Granted there are some rather good weapons (ie: CassoWar) that can take you through the entire star chart and beyond with a low MR, but that is to help encourage new players to, well play. I honestly get the sense we are going to see a new rise in the whole "I am clearly better then you other players, because my MR is (XYZ)" I am actually half expecting to hear an announcement of K/D Ratios are being introduced along with this.

2 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

For now, that’s it!

If you have any feedback on these proposed changes, please feel free to respond to this thread. Remember that feedback should be concise, constructive and civil. If there is something you don’t like, remember to tell us why, and what you would like to see instead, or if there is something you like the sound of, remember to tell us why you think it will help and how you would like to use it!

Thank you for reading this wall of text and expect to see Phase 2 arriving SOON™ 
 

So, we should see it after all the other changes next year about this time?

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- Melee only sortie - lvl 100 exterminate -   is now considered as "endless" mission type? :)

 

- Melee Phase 2 = Ash rework or how do his abilities/augments fit into this update ???

 

 

Edited by sorcer3r
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2 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

This counter will be increased in a more granular and rapid way, and can be built by using melee attacks, blocking damage, radial damage from Slam Attacks and hits from a thrown weapon (such as the Glaive).

Finally! Now there is a reason to use Blood Rush with glaives (last i checked out, Blood Rush didn't influence damage output in glaive's power throw (throw while with a secondary equipped, in dual wield mode). I love Falcor, but these shenanigans of some mod effects working in power throw attacks while some other mods don't work at all (seemingly completely at random) is a huge turn-down.

 

 

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7 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

MP2-ProGamerMove.gif

Pro Gamer Move Example: Use the first, opening attack in the Forward Tactical Combo (Forward + Block/Aim + Melee) to close the distance on the target, then transition into either a Neutral Combo (Melee Only) or a Neutral Tactical Combo (Block/Aim + Melee) to finish off the target.

This looks hella dope. Hot dang. The mobility from the Hold combo looks MUCH better than I was anticipating (i.e. much better than what Iron Staff has right now), and that base range looks satisfying to use!

 

BUT:

A couple of quick comments on certain topics:

  • ALIGNING MELEE ATTACKS TO CAMERA DIRECTION:
    This wasn't mentioned at all in this thread. I play with this option disabled (as is standard in any "monster-hunting" type of game, e.g. Dark Souls / Monster Hunter / Dauntless / Vindictus), and it works fine since most weapons/stances don't have directional combos... but the current Iron Staff preview unfortunately doesn't support this style at all (i.e. all "forward" combos only activate when holding W, but not A,S,D).
    Are there plans to give the "align melee attacks to camera" option a quick review, so that it's properly compatible with Melee 3.0 (i.e. could y'all let A,S,D activate the "forward" combos in addition to W)? Or are players like myself kinda just SOL?
     
  • BLOOD RUSH AND MAIMING STRIKE:
7 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

At the moment, the current list of mods and their proposed changes are listed below.

  • Blood Rush - Will now scale differently, using a stacking multiplier based on the Combo Counter, raising (X)% per Combo Counter tier (something much easier to achieve in Phase 2). We will provide the final % pending more testing. 
  • Maiming Strike - Changes from an additive buff to a stacking buff, but base functionality increased to a Significant % of the old version to balance the change. Final % to come soon.

I'm glad that the spin2win meta is being toned down, but I haven't seen any mention of the current multiplicative scaling between these two mods. Maiming Strike's +90% CC bonus is currently multiplied by Blood Rush, and that's why the MS+BR combo is so overpowered in the first place. If I'm interpreting this correctly and Maiming Strike is now multiplicative rather than additive (a la True Steel), then it sounds like Maiming Strike itself is being gutted, even though it's the MS+BR interaction that's the problem.

Example: A fake melee weapon with 0% crit chance will currently have >535% crit chance at 3.0x combo if MS+BR are equipped.
My solution: Let MS apply after BR, not before. This way, the same weapon will have a flat 90% crit chance, regardless of combo.
Current plan: MS is multiplicative, so the same weapon has 0% crit chance, and MS is unusable on weapons with low base crit chance. <-- Not good.

(I've been saying this repeatedly in numerous feedback threads for literally years, and I know I'm not the only one. Not seeing any mention of this here is a little bit disheartening, to say the least.)

Edited by SortaRandom
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I will just add on thing that you might have missed while updating exalted weapons - exalted stances have no capacity cost, which cripples the ability to mod them. We can't fit sacrificial mods there even with umbral polarity. Considering that new exilus slots are coming to weapons, exalted weapons will need this capacity even more.

Please consider adding capacity cost to exalted stances.

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If the heavy attacks spend all of your combo counter I don't see why anyone would ever use them. Melee builds are pretty reliant on mods that scale based on your combo counter and it doesn't look like that is going to change.

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I think I enjoy what's goin' on so far, but I do agree with most peeps here(?), CO def' should be 4-5 status' max, not 3. Though that is IMO, anyhow.

Blood rush is in an interesting spot, not sure what to think about that. We shall see, I guess, how it plays out.

Can't wait to see how it all works ^^

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1 minute ago, Rogunz said:

If the heavy attacks spend all of your combo counter I don't see why anyone would ever use them. Melee builds are pretty reliant on mods that scale based on your combo counter and it doesn't look like that is going to change.

 

This has been said multiple times, and has been addressed.  There will be efficiency that can modify that.

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3 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Our tools made Spin attacks optimal at the cost of the more interesting Melee system, and we’re trying to rectify that overall. 

The tools didn't make spin attacks optimal, given the tools weren't needed at all until Sortie level due to enemy HP being low enough Maiming Strike wasn't needed at all. What made slide attacks optimal is how the game is designed. Missions are about killing as many enemies as possible each second, or rushing to the end of the mission. Slide attacks with high attack speed and move speed allows you to kill all enemies quickly while rushing to the end, and in the case of kills per second, that was the most efficient way to kill enemies each second compared to just doing one normal attack against one enemy at a time. This is also why longer ranged weapons were preferred, longer range means more enemies being hit per attack. The same is true for why people preferred quick melee on some weapons, it allowed constant moving while killing enemies nearby, rather than pausing constantly to kill one or two enemies at a time.

Without the ability to kill many enemies in a short period, melee would just be worthless due to how many long range AOE weapons there are, in addition to how many Warframes can just delete everything on the map anyways. It's not as if melee is even superior at single target damage given they can't even be used effectively on a lot of enemies that do have more HP/Defense. Unless the game shifts drastically from tons of kills each minute to tougher enemies with much lower kill counts, it's going to be important that melee weapons can continue to kill many enemies like slide attacks have been.

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Life Strike - Heavy Attacks will now regenerate Health.

It seems like this is quite a buff to Life Strike, now that the channeling cost increase is no longer here. Of course that's not able to be directly brought to Heavy Attacks - what with all of your combo counter being used at once - but I do think it would be a good idea to implement an equivalent downside.

 

On a sidenote, I'm curious to see how the implementation of a universal finisher system interacts with stances that include finishers in their combos.

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Everyone is freaking over the whole combo counter thing, but even if there were no efficiency to it (and there is) people are glossing over the fact that it will be built far more rapidly.  Blocking, slam attacks, standard attacks, they all build it and more quickly than before.  Gone are the hundreds of hits to get your combo up.  Honestly, it doesn't sound like it will be a big deal.  One "life strike" every so many hits?  What's the problem.  I only ever toggled on life strike every so often as needed.  Seems like people with two good legs are afraid of not having a crutch.

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Il y a 1 heure, [DE]Bear a dit :

A few folks have mentioned this, so just to quickly address: After the initial ask, the idea is that Warframe powers that are based on the combo counter will still get that benefit, but there will be some balance adjustments, as getting higher multipliers on the combo counter is much, much easier to do now. As of this point, I have no further details on that interaction, sorry!

@[DE]BearTbh with you I dont really care about the melee changes all that much even if They are looking super nice (Except the nerfs to the only mods that could scale the dmg well over level 200 enemies (BRush and CO))

But if these changes affect atlas landslide and khora whipclaw dmg I will be super mad . THe dmg they gain from the combo counter (using only their 1 ) is what make them powerful  and it would be not well advised to nerf the base dmg of them just because it is easier to gain combo counter .. also I hope that the new changes wont make them gain 0 combo counter if They are using only their 1 without using the  melee because it would be à Straight big nerf to them. Also it just prove how sometimes your team forget and are disconnected about all the small little details when implementing a new system . Sure the abilities even without the combo counter are good in their own but not for ultra long content . It need the multiplier to hold in long endurance runs. Your team seems to forget some of the long runners with this change and the BR CO changes

Edited by MunsuLight
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