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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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I have concerns about the blocking mechanic. As of the current moment. Rhino is the only warframe completely left out of using this feature due to the mechanic working as a damage reduction to health. While Iron Skin seems to come first before that mechanic. Will this new blocking mechanic finally allow them to benefit from blocking along with every other warframe?

Edited by RavingRoman
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What will happen with Edo prime armor channeling effect when channeling is gone?

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40 minutes ago, JasmineMoldovia said:

I weep for the loss of Auto block, it was the best thing I ever had in the game.

Wait, it's being removed? Please no. That's a great feature.

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The actual impact of these changes is going to depend so much on not only the final numbers for the altered mods and mechanics but the as-of-yet-unseen total overhaul to the weapons themselves (and if the primary and secondary overhauls were anything to go by, expect a full shuffling of the meta deck) that it's impossible to say one way or another if these changes will be positive or not. The most encouraging thing, though, is the willingness to make big changes to core systems.

Just please, support these changes once they've been released. If certain things don't work out or there's problems with implementations, we cannot have another situation where we have to wait another seven months for them to be acknowledged and resolved.

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Most of these changes are pretty nice, in spite of people screaming how some mods like Blood Rush, Maiming Strike, and particularly (Primed) Reach received nerfs. 

To be truthful, those who just rely on a high-range melee weapon most or all the time, do you even realize how binary Melee is? Just using that same weapon over and over again is just so stale. The changes are also meant to equalize melee weapons in a similar fashion to Primaries and Secondaries. That means whichever weapon you choose, the weapon will still function well enough even if there are other "better" choices.

Since Range is what makes Melee weapons pretty binary in performance (Tekko Prime to something like a Polearm Zaw), is there a way to implement some sort of "lock-on" system where you can jump from enemy to enemy? Archmelee is probably the only redeeming thing about Archwing, the ability to jump from enemy to enemy.

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18 minutes ago, [DE]Bear said:

PLEASE BEAR (NO PUN INTENDED) IN MIND

I think it is best presented by marking an enemy, thus able to see the range in meters, then we will know how faraway from the enemy; the weapon can hit.

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Two suggestions

Suggestion for blocking while out of melee mod.

     Holding E puts the warframe in a defensive stance and prepares a strong attack. Warframes can hold this stance as long as they want but the weapon only charges for 2 seconds.

Suggestion for the tactical dodge with a quick dash. Just use the same quick dash mechaminc of blood born.

 

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Heavy attacks can now occur at any time, simply by pressing the Alt-fire button while you have melee equipped or in your hand

Any chance this can be programmed to also work while a gun is equipped, if that gun has no alt fire?

The way it's currently worded, it sounds like if you have a gun out and want to heavy attack, you'll need to do a regular melee swing first to bring out the melee weapon, and then do the heavy attack. If the gun doesn't have an alt fire anyway, then why not let it go straight into the heavy attack?

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36 minutes ago, Takkov said:

So heavy attacks are put on the button that noone really wants to use, due to it being the middle mouse button? Seems rather bad from a mechanical point of view.

Also, what about the most important thing: channeled armor (esp acanthus prime shoulders)?

You know you can rebind it right?

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Looking good so far, still i  can't help myself but to think that there is a missed opportunity to use the archwing style lock on rushing melee when you lift an enemy with a slam attack.

Could be implemented that way : you lift the enemy, target it and spam you melee attack resulting in a rushing melee combo.

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I bet 100 platinum they forgot about Titania's exalted melee again. I'm guessing Titania is gona lose the channeling and not get the heavy attacks at all (Say bye to life strike). 

BTW devs, the exalted still lacks a melee stance and, of course, that means less energy for mods.

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2 hours ago, TyrianMollusk said:

I suggest learning from Bayonetta and allowing us to hold combo through a dodge if we want.  This better integrates dodging into aggressive play.

Learning from Bayonetta in general would be amazing for Warframe's sadly rudimentary melee combat.  There is so much more you could have done to make playing fun and interesting.

This. Very much THIS ^
Dodge offset to "Void weave" -- where the tenno phases out in a split second, spectacular void based melee utilizing both focus energy and combo counter.

In addition, I would love to see a rework on movement especially the dodge animations. A dash would be nice for the tactical evade similar to Limbo's dodge but more like Ryu Hayabusa's slide dash quickness. Arkham series' vault over enemies in evasion path would be cool as well. 

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I think a lot of the worries around condition overload and blood rush nerfs due to the inability for melee to scale against "endgame" enemies could be addressed simply by changing those mods to have some sort of percent health damage associated with them.

The Nerf to 3 statuses with CO seems incredibly harsh and needs to be addressed. Flat numbers as buffs aren't great in a game with this with exponential scaling and reducing options to deal with content at that level while reducing instead the ability to oneshot that content should be thought about. Percent health works so great in a lot of games such as mobas because it prevents one shotting entirely because one hit will never deal the whole of a targets health but still do a lot to targets with huge health pools and armor that can otherwise resist flat damage abilities and tank them. I personally think this would work better for thematics of mods' namesakes as well.

As someone who loves the current melee system and never liked the old system where you switched to just your melee to block, I like that this system has so much compromise between both playstyles in it. It improves on what I like while also giving options back to those that lost them. I'm also for the changes to the spin to win meta and I'm looking forward to seeing other melees besides staffs and whips (the later of which I detest in this game) come into meta from this.

The removal of covert lethality from daggers makes them completely useless as it was the only real point of value for the Dark Daggers and dagger zaws. I think they still need a mod that helps them deal bursts of damage or get movement speed in exchange for lower range, which might be a good compensation to deal with those worried about their staffs losing the ability to hit enemies 15m away from them. Giving movement speed or chance to crit/guaranteed status procs to lowwr range weapon stances would be helpful.

 

Please for the love of God fix my Telos Boltace and how Stormpath works.

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Encouraging people to get creative while also limiting them is a bad choice. If you're so upset that melee is too powerful, why don't you buff primaries/secondaries to scale the same? Nerfing the only way to get high amounts of damage completely kills endurance runs. Then again, i guess we should know by now you don't actually care about your endgame/endurance players. 🙄

Edited by Emperor
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5 minutes ago, Syln said:

Looking good so far, still i  can't help myself but to think that there is a missed opportunity to use the archwing style lock on rushing melee when you lift an enemy with a slam attack.

Could be implemented that way : you lift the enemy, target it and spam you melee attack resulting in a rushing melee combo.

I was thinking along the lines of Onechanbara's aerial follow up dash if you know what I mean.

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7 minutes ago, xRufus7x said:

You know you can rebind it right?

I'm curious if they mean hitting the alt fire button triggers a heavy attack, or if it toggles a heavy attack, as in you hold alt fire and melee swing. I'm personally hoping for the latter because then I'll just bind it to my sprint key. Holding sprint to do a heavy melee is pretty common and easy for muscle memory personally.

 

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1 minute ago, Gelkor said:

I'm curious if they mean hitting the alt fire button triggers a heavy attack, or if it toggles a heavy attack, as in you hold alt fire and melee swing. I'm personally hoping for the latter because then I'll just bind it to my sprint key. Holding sprint to do a heavy melee is pretty common and easy for muscle memory personally.

 

Sounds like trigger not toggle.

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Any news on the loss of knockdown/stagger resist being addressed for numerous weapon types?

 

Edited by Dragazer

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4 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:
  • Hover Air Combo (Back + Melee while Jumping) - Holds the player in place while the combo completes, and overrides the slam attack angle to keep the action going!

I'm enjoying reading through this, but this specific part I have to bring up. DE, you have to stop designing this stuff with the default settings in mind. Not all of us play with the "Lock Melee to Camera" or "Melee Locks to Target" options left on. I implore you to find either another way to do this without holding backwards, or FORCE our orientation to lock to the camera while performing Hover Air Combos. I'd be okay with that, I just don't want to be felt forced to change that setting I've been playing with since I began in 2013.

If that can't happen, then don't even pretend to offer us options, and simply remove the ones I mentioned.

Edited by so_many_watermelons
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5 minutes ago, ThatsSoWitty said:

Flat numbers as buffs aren't great in a game with this with exponential scaling and reducing options to deal with content at that level while reducing instead the ability to oneshot that content should be thought about. Percent health works so great in a lot of games such as mobas because it prevents one shotting entirely because one hit will never deal the whole of a targets health but still do a lot to targets with huge health pools and armor that can otherwise resist flat damage abilities and tank them.

Percent health damage are flat numbers, and create a lot of balance problems (too strong against bosses, too weak against everything else).
We already have some with the revenant dash, and he was able to three shot the wolf with it.

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6 minutes ago, Sliv said:

Percent health damage are flat numbers

Image result for question mark meme

Edited by Dragazer
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I get it that people want their equipped melee back, but what about if people want to keep the seamless transition from melee to ranged then back? Would we have to use redeemer or somethin like that?

 

And what about auto blocking, what if there's an option in settings for if ppl want auto blocking on?

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Hard to judge without testing stuff but man range change and high dispo rivens are gonna be a thing for sure.

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