The End of Red Crits on Melee

[Hyro1]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I’ll go a step further:

I think this is a change designed to directly affect how easy it would have been to kill high level Sentients during the New War.

3 types of damage vs more than 3.

Since when did Sentients get but with status effects

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

Imagine not knowing numbers and trying to make an argument upon just the phrase "changing how X does its thing, no numbers yet though."  Seems his post was modified because people on page one were posting about how condition overload doesn't affect your crit multiplier, which is 100% true all a red crit means is you have over 200% crit chance total and X% to red crit, where X is the number after 200% but if you get 300% crit chance you will only see red crits.  An even 200% crit chance means just orange crits.  

[evilChair]

31 minutes ago, Hyro1 said:

Since when did Sentients get but with status effects

does it even matter when all developed immunity is erased with a 5-dash-5? unless the birdolon fight gives some lore-support to void-adaptation as well (and it looks like that's the point), then there won't really be any kind of actual problem in fighting them in TNW.

[OvisCaedo]

We don't really know what the changes are yet, but I personally cannot imagine ANY outcome other than a significant nerf to all of the high-end potential scaling and damage for most of the things that provide it. When you look at how grotesequely broken melee scaling is now, and how often people talk about it being so overwhelmingly powerful compared to what's necessary or all other damage options... Could even DE possibly be out of touch enough to implement anything other than a nerf when it comes to reworking and rebalancing those elements?

the low end of melee weapon performance will probably be brought up quite a bit, though. And personally, I'm not even mad about the prospect of high-end melee damage being significantly nerfed; I'm of the opinion that the game desperately needs balancing for it to ever have design space for actually fun content, and while it's going to take a HELL of a lot more than this to get there, may as well reel in some of the really extreme outliers first.

Edited October 19, 2019 by OvisCaedo

[bibmobello]

 I was trying my "endgame" on simulacrum and i ended that this game is in total retard mode...

Excluding  2 or 3 people paid to do videos on 7 -8 hour survival, i don't really understand the reason to use CO, considering that every enemy even on level 165 dyes with one hit. And what's the point to use tysis, for example to spread status and then finish an enemy, when every idiot can spam maiming strike or use a sniper and kill everything sooner than you.

And when a developer starts to realize after many years that his system is broken and start to nerf everything because it's easier than releasing  harder content, the game is already dead.

If  people use CO to have greatest stats at the end missions, wow congratulation! and anyway the stats are broken most of the time, just to know...

have fun.

Edited October 19, 2019 by bibmobello

[Andele3025]

16 minutes ago, OvisCaedo said:

We don't really know what the changes are yet, but I personally cannot imagine ANY outcome other than a significant nerf to all of the high-end potential scaling and damage for most of the things that provide it. When you look at how grotesequely broken melee scaling is now, and how often people talk about it being so overwhelmingly powerful compared to what's necessary or all other damage options... Could even DE possibly be out of touch enough to implement anything other than a nerf when it comes to reworking and rebalancing those elements?

the low end of melee weapon performance will probably be brought up quite a bit, though. And personally, I'm not even mad about the prospect of high-end melee damage being significantly nerfed; I'm of the opinion that the game desperately needs balancing for it to ever have design space for actually fun content, and while it's going to take a HELL of a lot more than this to get there, may as well reel in some of the really extreme outliers first.

Technically, if BR applies to all attacks and Meme strike has high enough %, it can still make melee competitive with kitguns (tho it needs a 1500-2.3k crit chance multiplier if they are multiplicative to base crit and additive to eachother), effectively removing a massive chunk of weapons from hybrid (or even crit viability) with little impact on Zaws and Gram Prime n Para/the 30%+ crit chance 2.5+x crit multi weapons. So its not that high end melee will be nerfed, its that unless there are solid nerfs to the high end stuff down to around the level of the Galatine P or even Atterax (which despite common opinion, both on paper/mathematically and especially in practice with the extending weapons bug since the hitscan check, is not in fact even in the peak of weapon dps and kill range) with massive base buffs to the 1h and short range melee, it will just keep status quo with worse scaling for anything not high end.

Remember a big part of the current imbalance is how its multiple multipliers stacking. Combo counter multiplier removed from regular strikes in turn makes base values even more important increasing the (POTENTIAL) gap between stuff like zaws and a guandao. Tho in the end it all depends on DE number crunching vs just eyeballing it.

 

P.S. Melee scaling doesnt actually go grotesquely overwhelmingly higher than gun damage, it is in fact lower than kitgun dps up to around 3.5x combo multiplier on regular/non slide builds and 2.5x combo on slide builds for pretty much everything (atterax with no utility or combo duration mod needs to get to 2.5 combo to compete with catchmoon kitgun which cant even benefit from headshots for context). And thats not even factoring how you dont truly need the full sustained dps but a average between burst and sustained for accurate kill value measurement due to enemy spawn rates. Tho im not accounting for people doing mixed/CO playstyle which is its own multiplier to everything and works best on weapons with 3-4 around equally distributed damage types base.

[bibmobello]

47 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Technically, if BR applies to all attacks and Meme strike has high enough %, it can still make melee competitive with kitguns (tho it needs a 1500-2.3k crit chance multiplier if they are multiplicative to base crit and additive to eachother), effectively removing a massive chunk of weapons from hybrid (or even crit viability) with little impact on Zaws and Gram Prime n Para/the 30%+ crit chance 2.5+x crit multi weapons. So its not that high end melee will be nerfed, its that unless there are solid nerfs to the high end stuff down to around the level of the Galatine P or even Atterax (which despite common opinion, both on paper/mathematically and especially in practice with the extending weapons bug since the hitscan check, is not in fact even in the peak of weapon dps and kill range) with massive base buffs to the 1h and short range melee, it will just keep status quo with worse scaling for anything not high end.

Remember a big part of the current imbalance is how its multiple multipliers stacking. Combo counter multiplier removed from regular strikes in turn makes base values even more important increasing the (POTENTIAL) gap between stuff like zaws and a guandao. Tho in the end it all depends on DE number crunching vs just eyeballing it.

 

P.S. Melee scaling doesnt actually go grotesquely overwhelmingly higher than gun damage, it is in fact lower than kitgun dps up to around 3.5x combo multiplier on regular/non slide builds and 2.5x combo on slide builds for pretty much everything (atterax with no utility or combo duration mod needs to get to 2.5 combo to compete with catchmoon kitgun which cant even benefit from headshots for context). And thats not even factoring how you dont truly need the full sustained dps but a average between burst and sustained for accurate kill value measurement due to enemy spawn rates. Tho im not accounting for people doing mixed/CO playstyle which is its own multiplier to everything and works best on weapons with 3-4 around equally distributed damage types base.

You are comparing apples with oranges... Kitgun have high damage but almost zero slashes or low status because everyone build them for high crits but anyway with the current retard level system you can even bring an amphis and kill everything... Just try to kill a level 200 corpus with your catchmoon and then try the worst impact  melee with viral...

Edited October 19, 2019 by bibmobello

[spirit_of_76]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I think this is a change designed to directly affect how easy it would have been to kill high level Sentients during the New War.

3 types of damage vs more than 3.

all sentients are proc imune

[(PSN)Silverback73]

2 hours ago, spirit_of_76 said:

all sentients are proc imune

Immune to Procs or Proc damage? Does CO trigger when a Sentient is hit with a PRoC that does no damage?

I’ll search.

Edited October 19, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[(NSW)FlameDivinity]

8 hours ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

Blood Rush - Will now scale differently, using a stacking multiplier based on the Combo Counter, raising (X)% per Combo Counter tier (something much easier to achieve in Phase 2). We will provide the final % pending more testing. 

oh and btw the crit multiplier on bloodrush for combos only applies to HEAVY attacks.

You're EXACTLY the person Steve was calling out in the devstream.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

8 hours ago, CodeUltimate said:

nerfing CO will kill status weapons not only melee but primary/secondary weapons too lol. 

See that's what I'm antsy about. They could very easily end up killing status weapons/builds. Or killing crit builds and no I dont mean maiming strike. But...

8 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

Ninkondi prime was released long after CO actually but i appreciate the intent. 

 

The proposed changes make no actual sense to give feedback to because a) we got no numbers, not even tentative ones, and b) de has a very big nomenclatura problem so some of the changes might mean literally anything. 

This... I have no idea how any given melee weapon will work after this because i dont know what the change in numbers will actually be. It doesnt SOUND LIKE their intention is for this to be a net nerf on melee overall. I feel like if anything it might be a buff  save for the people who actually bother to stack that many status effects.

 

 

[SenorClipClop]

Gotta love how people make "doom" threads right after DE mentions a small fraction of the release information.

[ChaoticEdge]

wait you care for combo counter increase the crits for all that?  You know there is riven mods just help increase the duration combo counter which save you less time adding mods to increase your durability of combo counter.  It is not like it really help not to have duration combo for it does help and you don't have to rely on the mess that might developed, which I understand DE trying balance the game which I cannot blame them they wanted balance the game from the start as we all speak, for the game been in totally in hell hole mess that scrambled all over the place and completely trying complete the game the way it is but there is no reason to scream to fear of changing (obama's speech small quote).  The only fear is denying what is real and what had made a different that impact what could be really good or well thought out of the game.

I am not worry about my crit dmg because there will be always different weapons will always get the job done even thou that I may hate that type weapon how it does it's job.

[Andele3025]

5 hours ago, bibmobello said:

You are comparing apples with oranges... Kitgun have high damage but almost zero slashes or low status because everyone build them for high crits but anyway with the current retard level system you can even bring an amphis and kill everything... Just try to kill a level 200 corpus with your catchmoon and then try the worst impact  melee with viral...

You really dont want to compare a level 200 corpus tech being 5 shot by catchmoon to the amphis that needs to get to 3x, even if you give it Meme, BR and CO. YOU SERIOUSLY dont want that comparison.

And its not apples with oranges, its damage.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Andele3025

[bibmobello]

20 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

You really dont want to compare a level 200 corpus tech being 5 shot by catchmoon to the amphis that needs to get to 3x, even if you give it Meme, BR and CO. YOU SERIOUSLY dont want that comparison.

And its not apples with oranges, its damage.

I wrote that to extremize the concept but if you reach such levels you can clearly reach even 4X combo counter easily. With maiming strike +  bloodrush you just spam maiming strike, with absurd weapon ranges and yes you kill everything easily, there is no skill no challenge and no reason to use other weapons. Yes bloodrush and maiming strike are multiplicative, these mean you can reach 1000% crit chance and you can add even CO. They needed more than 3 years to understand it was a broken system... And with a gun you have to aim! with maiming strike you hit everything and you will get more headshots(i have no idea how).

BTW the truth is that with this rework the crappy weapons  i could use with maiming strike were fun, now you will be able to use only few  top weapons because those  with low crits will be totally useless.

Edited October 19, 2019 by bibmobello

[seprent]

im just going to wait to get the stuff in my hands before i make solid opinions and bold statements 

Edited October 19, 2019 by seprent
redundancy

[-Kittens-]

12 hours ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

 

No one is stacking 15 different status effects on every enemy just to get a kill from CO

wrong. For high leveling farming this the defacto method of killing infinite damage sponge enemies.

 

[-Kittens-]

7 hours ago, bibmobello said:

because everyone build them for high crits

false.

[Bagadyr]

What about slide crit rivens?

[Loza03]

Remember - the base damage getting multiplied by crits and CO is getting increased significantly. The Skana at present deals 35 damage at base, but the one shown deals 120. That's an increase of about four times. Even though a lot of multipliers are going away, the ones that remain are multiplying something that's already useful at base - not something that needs multipliers to do its thing, and thus so many multipliers are added that the game can't keep up.

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

57 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

wrong. For high leveling farming this the defacto method of killing infinite damage sponge enemies.

 

Lmao you not getting a free view from me with this click bait.  Lv 200 enemies die easily from a Gram without using CO or a riven. It normally takes over 1 hour to hit lv 200 enemies.  

Very very very very few players stay in matches that long as there is no real added benefit to be in a match for hours. 

No one needs a 1,152x damage multiplier for every single enemy. If 16x multiplier from 6 procs or even 26x from 7 procs is not enough, you have a crappy build. 

[Nichivo]

14 hours ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

CO does not effect primary or secondary weapons. It's the other way around. 

It's not a nerf until you see the final numbers.

No one is stacking 15 different status effects on every enemy just to get a kill from CO. You might get 5-6 status procs (16x damage) before you or the enemy are dead.  If it takes 6 melee swings or If you need more than 6 status to kill an enemy, you need a better build. 

I use a rattleguts built to apply 7 status near instantly and a Balla that is heavily invested in with CO that adds an 8th status to kill level 500 + mobs in the Index in a second or two. Exactly what build do you have that can accomplish the same feat? I want to see this better build. 

[Nichivo]

14 hours ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

CO does not effect primary or secondary weapons. It's the other way around. 

It's not a nerf until you see the final numbers.

No one is stacking 15 different status effects on every enemy just to get a kill from CO. You might get 5-6 status procs (16x damage) before you or the enemy are dead.  If it takes 6 melee swings or If you need more than 6 status to kill an enemy, you need a better build. 

I use a rattleguts built to apply 7 status near instantly and a Balla that is heavily invested in with CO that adds an 8th status to kill level 500 + mobs in the Index in a second or two. Exactly what build do you have that can accomplish the same feat? I want to see this better build. 

[Nichivo]

14 hours ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

CO does not effect primary or secondary weapons. It's the other way around. 

It's not a nerf until you see the final numbers.

No one is stacking 15 different status effects on every enemy just to get a kill from CO. You might get 5-6 status procs (16x damage) before you or the enemy are dead.  If it takes 6 melee swings or If you need more than 6 status to kill an enemy, you need a better build. 

I use a rattleguts built to apply 7 status near instantly and a Balla that is heavily invested in with CO that adds an 8th status to kill level 500 + mobs in the Index in a second or two. Exactly what build do you have that can accomplish the same feat? I want to see this better build. 

[Nichivo]

🙄wow Triple post forum lag  any mods that can fix that around?