New Melee Changes, CO Going The Wrong Direction

[Tyreaus]

28 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Even at 10% crit chance, hybrid builds are still better than pure status builds. That was the whole point, that putting thought into it gave you more power. Going pure crit and delegating a status secondary will not give you that much power, +27.3% more to be exact, but even then, you still might need the status chance for debuffs like viral. Also, gas status is the strongest dps, so even then, going pure crit isn't the best option.

It isn't just an increase in damage that a two-weapon synergy provides but an increase in speed. A full-auto Zenith can stack three different status effects pretty much instantly, and can do so on approach before the first melee hit lands (the build-up is still a thing). Other weapons e.g. Atomos have better AoE for doing so. Depending on the melee and one's luck with the procs themselves, that could end up taking a few seconds to get all three stacks on a melee alone, which can markedly increase TTK. If that's all the case, even if one doesn't go pure crit and only leans heavily toward it, the two-weapon version has notable advantages.

To reiterate something: I don't disagree with the button-mashing thing. I would like to see more weapon synergies and more bonuses for thinking behind things. But if this is a problem, it doesn't seem like a new one. Current CO has button-mashing capabilities that are perfectly adequate. New CO will have similar, obviously. Current CO has builds that can go above and beyond that with two weapon setups. New CO has similar with the crit-leaning setups. Both CO synergies are about five miles to the wayside. This doesn't feel like a new problem, it feels like the same problem that just wasn't fixed.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Tyreaus

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

13 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

It isn't just an increase in damage that a two-weapon synergy provides but an increase in speed. A full-auto Zenith can stack three different status effects pretty much instantly, and can do so on approach before the first melee hit lands (the build-up is still a thing). Other weapons e.g. Atomos have better AoE for doing so. Depending on the melee and one's luck with the procs themselves, that could end up taking a few seconds to get all three stacks on a melee alone, which can markedly increase TTK. If that's all the case, even if one doesn't go pure crit and only leans heavily toward it, the two-weapon version has notable advantages.

If a melee weapon has 100% status u don't even need to switch weapons and can 3 hit anything

Edited October 20, 2019 by (PS4)Spider_Enigma

[Tyreaus]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

If a melee weapon has 109% status y don't even need to switch weapons and can 3 hit anything

I believe there is context missed from my original reply here regarding using crit-based melee weapons (which wouldn't be able to get 109% status) and boosting them with CO. But I may be misreading, or there may be a typo.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

5 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

I believe there is context missed from my original reply here regarding using crit-based melee weapons (which wouldn't be able to get 109% status) and boosting them with CO. But I may be misreading, or there may be a typo.

Typo and with weeping wounds currently everything has 100% status

[Uhkretor]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

weeping wounds

That's what I'm missing lol

[Birdframe_Prime]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

The nerf to CO was strictly to lower the power builds of melee, which were much stronger than any of the content in the game.

I don't see any evidence of that at all.

I see DE introducing a system that's going to make Melee even more powerful, and so some mods, the ones that were considered so powerful before, get a nerf to compensate. If weapons likethe base Skana are getting a base 3x or more damage buff, then think of what's happening to the rest. Not to mention that comment about MR, if you remember what happened in the Primary and Secondary changes when they adjusted the MR, if something had a higher MR and didn't warrant it they buffed the supplementals of that weapon to match too. A few got their MR lowered because of progression reasons, but if something was considered under-powered and stayed at the MR it had? It was buffed beyond what the others were.

And I think that's going to happen here too. It's not because they're stronger than any other content, it's because they're adding more power and so they can safely nerf parts that they were finding too prevalent.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

15 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I don't see any evidence of that at all.

I see DE introducing a system that's going to make Melee even more powerful, and so some mods, the ones that were considered so powerful before, get a nerf to compensate. If weapons likethe base Skana are getting a base 3x or more damage buff, then think of what's happening to the rest. Not to mention that comment about MR, if you remember what happened in the Primary and Secondary changes when they adjusted the MR, if something had a higher MR and didn't warrant it they buffed the supplementals of that weapon to match too. A few got their MR lowered because of progression reasons, but if something was considered under-powered and stayed at the MR it had? It was buffed beyond what the others were.

And I think that's going to happen here too. It's not because they're stronger than any other content, it's because they're adding more power and so they can safely nerf parts that they were finding too prevalent.

The problem here is that people want to fight level 500s and with the combo counter gone, they r *@##$ing that can't inf scale and kill them now, when they shouldn't even be fighting them in the first place

[Raikh]

The thing about CO is that its inherently broken mechanically. It should've been additive with itself tbh. The sheer fact alone that it is multiplicative with all other mods is basically giving it a slot on a lot of weapons at even jsut 1 stack, at 2 stacks its already roughly equivalent to Primed Pressure Point and from there on it just takes off and is getting completely ridiculous.

It is singlehandedly and BY FAR the most powerful mod in the entire game. And while Blood Rush and Memeing Strike are also broken, especially in combination, they are not even remotely on the same level as CO if you are really pushing it.

One thing is, which is generally a problem, that within the intended playing field or Warframe, you don't need to push CO, you already have so much excessive damage for everything that isn't very long endurance runs (which I consider to be outside of the intended playing field, with Arbitrations being a fringe case). So for the majority of the playerbase the CO change isn't going to matter, for some weapons and general play it might even get a bit better depending on how much strogner the base is.

Its quite obviously going to be a nerf, a massive one even for people who are pushing CO for 500+ armored enemies, who jsut wouldn't die otherwise because Armor scaling is just as broken as CO and health gets icnredibly high eventually, too. LIke at 5 status effects, you already do more than 10 times normal damage, at 7 you are at almost 27 times your normal damage and at 10 stacks you are at over 100 times normal damage, it is absurd.

It might end up being really bad for those who do such runs, but I don't really have much sympathy for that. Primarily because I want real endgame activities for Warframe and for that to eventually happen broken sclaing mechanics on both the enemies end and the players end need to be reigned in, otherwise it will always jsut got he way of degenerate oneshot mechanism for both sides and that is not good gameplay.

On the playstyle matter. While I agree that it shouldnt be braindead, I don't think having to ramp status effects with specifc guns before you melee away qualifies as interesting or good gameplay. Especially with the reintroduction of melee mode it mgiht cause some relatively degnerate playstyle where full melee players will still not necessarily want to commit to the melee mode becasue they rather stack CO for where its desirable

I think reigning in mods like this is necessary and healthy for the game. Other changes need to happen long-term to create an overall healthier game state but since that won't all happen within one Update I just see this as one first step.
(The melee rework can obviously still be a total mess regardless, but we don't have the numbers to do more than speculate on that)

 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Raikh

[(PSN)Crixus044]

6 hours ago, Raikh said:

On the playstyle matter. While I agree that it shouldnt be braindead, I don't think having to ramp status effects with specifc guns before you melee away qualifies as interesting or good gameplay. Especially with the reintroduction of melee mode it mgiht cause some relatively degnerate playstyle where full melee players will still not necessarily want to commit to the melee mode becasue they rather stack CO for where its desirable

It most certainly does. It's uses a function that DE introduced specifically to promote that, which was the instant swap between melee and weapons. They wanted more fluid transitions between gun and melee, and that's exactly what it uses. It's a full loadout strategy that uses your secondary and primary. Secondaries have historically been used only for bleedout and backups, while melee players use to go with only their melee to lower their conclave rating. Primaries where either used as primaries or shiny fashion frame on your back.

Also, let me point out that I too want CO nerfed, because 50-100x damage is a wee bit much, but i wanted the percentage lowered or having it become additive, not capping it's usage, because it does make everything braindead.

[Birdframe_Prime]

14 hours ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

The problem here is that people want to fight level 500s and with the combo counter gone, they r *@##$ing that can't inf scale and kill them now, when they shouldn't even be fighting them in the first place

As somebody from the era where fighting level 500+ was actively encouraged by long-run rewards, I will defend fighting level 500+ to the day I die.

I just don't think we'll actually see a change in our ability to fight level 500+ from this update, I think we'll still be able to get there, we'll just have to do it differently than we did before. And I'll enjoy finding out what that new method for doing that will be.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

As somebody from the era where fighting level 500+ was actively encouraged by long-run rewards, I will defend fighting level 500+ to the day I die.

I just don't think we'll actually see a change in our ability to fight level 500+ from this update, I think we'll still be able to get there, we'll just have to do it differently than we did before. And I'll enjoy finding out what that new method for doing that will be.

the reward for 20 mins is the reward for 40 mins, there  is no point and never was

Edited October 21, 2019 by (PS4)Spider_Enigma

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

the reward for 20 mins is the reward for 40 mins, there  is no point and never was

In the Key era, the reward for 20 minutes was a Prime Part. Particular rare parts only ever popped up every 20 minutes. There was no way to acquire a Prime Part that dropped on Rotation C quicker than going for 20 minutes, and it was not guaranteed, you could get a Fast Hands or an Ammo Drum instead of it. It was quicker, and often easier (depending on your setup) to pay 1 Key, go for 3 hours, and get 9 shots at the Rotation C drop in that time, than it was to go for 20 minutes, extract, pay a new Key to load in, go for 20 minutes, extract, pay a new Key and repeat 9 times.

If you had each player in a Squad farm 1 Key for a T4 survival (by playing a single mission and getting it as a reward all at once), and each player paid their single Key in turn to let the team have 9 shots at that reward, you would have a total of 36 shots at that reward for 4 Keys. Name any situation in the Relic setup that lets you spend only 4 total Relics and have 36 rolls at the loot.

And if you do it the other way, extracting every 20 minutes, you would have spent 36 Keys for 36 Shots, not even guaranteed to get a Prime Part at any time.

Mathematically and even just common sense making that a better reason to go for long runs.

If you could jump into a Survival or Defense right now with only 1 Relic and potentially get a reward from that Relic (with a few other joke rewards mixed into the drop table) every single Rotation without spending another Relic for as long as you stayed in that mission... you would probably be encouraged to run for longer yourself.

Considering Relics as a system were introduced only one day after your account registered here on the Forums, unless you had an alt before that, I genuinely wouldn't expect you to have known about the Key system. So I can understand your point of view. You are, according to your forum account, from an era that never has supported or rewarded long runs.

Relics can be attempted at all times across multiple game modes, are never beyond the level 30-40 mark, and you get a guaranteed roll at a Prime Part every Rotation for as long as you have Relics. Meanwhile in any other mode of the game there really isn't a reason to go past 20 minutes, or an hour at most (if you're in an Endless Kuva or similar).

You are, however, incorrect in the statement that there was never a point to go past that. There was a considerable period of time, several years, where the Void was the only place to farm Prime Parts, and the way to optimise your acquisition of them was to make 1 Void Key go as far as possible. That was the birth of the Long Run meta, and why there even are players that have been to level 500+ at all. If that system hadn't existed, if we'd had Relics from the start, Long Run would not be a thing that is done in Warframe aside from the min-maxing crowd who like the fact that there are weekly leaderboards.

But thank you for offering a view point.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

As somebody from the era where fighting level 500+ was actively encouraged by long-run rewards, I will defend fighting level 500+ to the day I die.

Preaching right here