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28ryl

What is the point of daggers? - New Rework

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Hi,

  what is the point of daggers , especially with the removal of covert lethality in the new rework, daggers are not even endgame viable especially with normal mods compared to more viable options like a dokhram zaw or even plauge kripath zaws, they do not have the wave clear of the previous mentions zaw or even in the "spin to win" meta. This is just me asking a question, as i really like daggers especially with the stinging thorn+covert lethality combo to take down heavy targets like nox or heavy gunners and i love the skin from the nezha package, daggers have never really been "meta" as they were really only useful in taking down a single target and i also saw a thread talking about something like condition overload balancing which furthers makes dagger even weaker as a melee class & they barely have anything useful effects (maybe the rakta is useful).

So in conclusion, will there be a rebalancing to make daggers more viable(since there is damage rebalancing) or even give daggers the ability to be more useful or will it completely be phased out due the "assassin creed blade" coming in the new patch?

Thanks for taking your time in reading this, hopefully something will be pointed out to enlighten the current situation on daggers. 😄

28ryl

Edited by 28ryl
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hmm they might need rework on the daggers issues for you are right about the daggers aren't being so on so loved.

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3 minutes ago, 28ryl said:

Hi,

  what is the point of daggers , especially with the removal of covert lethality in the new rework, daggers are not even endgame viable especially with normal mods compared to more viable options like a dokhram zaw or even plauge kripath zaws, they do not have the wave clear of the previous mentions zaw or even in the "spin to win" meta. This is just me asking a question, as i really like daggers especially with the pointed wind+covert lethality combo to take down heavy targets like nox or heavy gunners and i love the skin from the nezha package, daggers have never really been "meta" as they were really only useful in taking down a single target and i also saw a thread talking about something like condition overload balancing which furthers makes dagger even weaker as a melee class & they barely have anything useful effects (maybe the rakta is useful).

So in conclusion, will there be a rebalancing to make daggers more viable(since there is damage rebalancing) or even give daggers the ability to be more useful or will it completely be phased out due the "assassin creed blade" coming in the new patch?

Thanks for taking your time in reading this, hopefully something will be pointed out to enlighten the current situation on daggers. 😄

28ryl

Their stances will open to finishers and deal more damage,  considering the power of blood rush, maiming string and co should be reduced.

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What's the point of this thread? You don't even know the reworked stats yet.

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well if the skana got from what looks like a 3.5 times the damage buff 24 > 84.5 slash damage im keeping an open mind till its in my hands to play with 

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range mods are being modified so that they give flat meters instead of percentage. So range is no longer an issue with most weapons now, i.e. fists and daggers.

So yeah daggers have fast attack speed now (with new range mods) have decent range and can build up your combo counter like crazy, which the new melee system WANTS you to do meaning they'll be pretty good when the rework comes out.

Also, attacks that open enemies to finishers should still open them to finishers even after the rework meaning you can still use pointed wind to open them up to finishers which you then one shot with your parazan.

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We'll have to wait and see. Remember that DE is doing a complete weapon rebalance in phase 2 of the melee rework, and I'm sure they've factored in dagger stats and how it can fit in the lineup of current melee weapon classes.

If I had to guess, they're going to be very fast to account for their lack of damage and reach.

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34 minutes ago, 28ryl said:

what is the point of daggers , especially with the removal of covert lethality in the new rework

Let's find out with the new update. So far we no very little about how they're going to be changing stats, etc.

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The point is to use them if you like them, if you were only using them because the instakill mod then you will move on to a another weapon. I'm suddenly not going to stop using daggers on the frames i use daggers on just because a mod change

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39 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

We'll have to wait and see. Remember that DE is doing a complete weapon rebalance in phase 2 of the melee rework, and I'm sure they've factored in dagger stats and how it can fit in the lineup of current melee weapon classes.

If I had to guess, they're going to be very fast to account for their lack of damage and reach.

They are already fast, they can reach insane fast levels at a point that you will  not even be able to press the mouse button at the right time but seriously i don't understand why someone should  spend their combo counter for an "heavy attack" when probably maiming strike+bloodrush will still hit harder... And probably it's only a solution to propose other  mods like if you hit an enemy in the  air you get 200% bonus damage...

Edited by bibmobello
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9 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

They are already fast, they can reach insane fast levels at a point that you will  not even be able to press the mouse button at the right time but seriously i don't understand why someone want to spend their combo counter for an "heavy attack" when probably maiming strike+bloodrush will hit harder...

From what someone mentioned in another thread, DE is supposed to be looking at the Maiming Strike + Blood Rush broken synergy.

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It's a good thing that Covert Lethality is getting axed as there is no reason for Daggers to ever be good when they could all carry guaranteed one-shot potential. But as for how well they'll preform after the changes all matters on just how much their damage and range is increased and if the new Reach scaling will be worth slotting or even necessary at all.

If anything the only issue there might be is if their damage increase is enough to compensate the +100 Covert gave.

 

But the most important thing about the entire update will be that dual daggers will get their first ever(?) buff. Which with the new combo and heavy attack system might be oddly powerful given how many times they hit enemies per swing.

Edited by trst

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The new system got me excited for a moment until i realized my one shot Covert Lethality dagger to gain quick health with Inaros will also be affected. But change can also be good right? Either way, i'm looking forward to the rework of the melee system and to find out more about the Parazon.

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The whole point of a dagger is to quietly kill something while sneaking around. So, unless there is going to be some huge increase in stealth finisher damage for daggers as a stat or as a mod, removing instant kill from Covert lethality seems to serve no purpose. Why would anyone enter an open combat with armored and shielded enemies with a dagger? It makes little sense. Considering recent tweaks to stealth and the fact that quite a lot of enemies are immune to finishers in higher levels, Covert lethality is not exactly overpowered even with Ivara/Loki/Ash. Anyhow, apparently we have to wait and see what DE has in mind specifically.

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48 minutes ago, trst said:

It's a good thing that Covert Lethality is getting axed as there is no reason for Daggers to ever be good when they could all carry guaranteed one-shot potential. But as for how well they'll preform after the changes all matters on just how much their damage and range is increased and if the new Reach scaling will be worth slotting or even necessary at all.

If anything the only issue there might be is if their damage increase is enough to compensate the +100 Covert gave.

 

But the most important thing about the entire update will be that dual daggers will get their first ever(?) buff. Which with the new combo and heavy attack system might be oddly powerful given how many times they hit enemies per swing.

Seeing as combos and CO both have a hard cap now, methinks your supposition rests more on fanciful unicorns and taffy clouds than it does the devstream data.

 

To get a decent riven, you have to roll on it like 96 times.

 

To get enough kuva to roll on something 96 times, you need to spend two hours minimum in KS/KD with a booster.

I sincerely doubt the "go to" solution to level 250 bombard eximus is going to be "dagger" with the current nerfs, now or ever, because with the current change all you're going to be able to is keep the bombard on the ground while his 17 other buddies casually dry hump your kuva dispenser to death in one hit by casually waving at it.

The simple fact is wf's economy and grind loop doesn't support the type of changes made.

Balancing against the starchart while placing every item worth a damn in rotation C and thus obviating the starchart as a viable metric of difficulty or meaningful content or even a means to achieving said content simply doesn't work.

Also physical out loud lol at going from "maiming strike is broken and we have the actual hard metric data to show how it destroyed melee and any kind of challenge" to "hmm, we'll maybe take a look at it real soon™ sure thing on the to do list at some point surely".

Edited by -Kittens-
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1 hour ago, -Kittens- said:

Seeing as combos and CO both have a hard cap now, methinks your supposition rests more on fanciful unicorns and taffy clouds than it does the devstream data.

 

To get a decent riven, you have to roll on it like 96 times.

 

To get enough kuva to roll on something 96 times, you need to spend two hours minimum in KS/KD with a booster.

I sincerely doubt the "go to" solution to level 250 bombard eximus is going to be "dagger" with the current nerfs, now or ever, because with the current change all you're going to be able to is keep the bombard on the ground while his 17 other buddies casually dry hump your kuva dispenser to death in one hit by casually waving at it.

The simple fact is wf's economy and grind loop doesn't support the type of changes made.

Balancing against the starchart while placing every item worth a damn in rotation C and thus obviating the starchart as a viable metric of difficulty or meaningful content or even a means to achieving said content simply doesn't work.

Also physical out loud lol at going from "maiming strike is broken and we have the actual hard metric data to show how it destroyed melee and any kind of challenge" to "hmm, we'll maybe take a look at it real soon™ sure thing on the to do list at some point surely".

What in the world are you going on about? Covert Lethality, Condition Overload, and Bloodrush are not in any capacity required for killing such enemies nor are they required for farming Kuva. But I really don't see why you're bringing up Rivens anyways.

There isn't even any practical reason whatsoever for anyone to be going against lv250 enemies and anything farmed from endless missions don't need to get gained in one sitting. There is little difference between two 20 minute Survivals and one 40 minute Survival and zero difference for Kuva Survival since Kuva gains are on a fixed rate.

Sure if we're going to lose the infinite scaling potential of melee it will make endurance runs more difficult but again there is no reason for these anyways. Plus people did endurance runs before any of these mods existed anyways.

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ideally I'd like daggers to be extremely fast (faster than anything except hand weapons: Sparring/Gauntlet/Claws) either have improved status over some other melees, or, since CL is being removed, at least let them retain a higher Finisher multiplier than some other weapon types. that way they can still be used with finisher builds and synergies, just not as broken as it used to be.

Dual daggers though.. I hope those got the rework they need. IMO those should have slightly better blocking than daggers, and much faster attack speed than they do right now.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

Dual daggers though.. I hope those got the rework they need. IMO those should have slightly better blocking than daggers, and much faster attack speed than they do right now.

At this point I just hope DE remembers that Dual Daggers are in the game at all.

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1 hour ago, Aldain said:

At this point I just hope DE remembers that Dual Daggers are in the game at all.

The only dual dagger prime, fang prime  has 0 ML requirement and terrible stats, i don't see any reason to use them.

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25 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

The only dual dagger prime, fang prime  has 0 ML requirement and terrible stats, i don't see any reason to use them.

I love the ether daggers purely because of their looks. They're utterly gorgeous... and I have no reason to ever pull them out because there are so many other weapons which beat the crap out of them.

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You'll have 13 pages of update notes to read to consider whether daggers are viable or not come the new update. Threads like this are premature.

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Hopefully the daggers and dual will be the same speed level as in this old video. Of course with better stats but daggers never was about damage instead speed and finisher.

I can't stand not to put this everytime I see a dagger thread.

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Daggers had the only advantage to open to finisher and using CL, now there will be no reason to use them. Dual daggers had no reason to exist even first but for fashion... And i think this update will be just a mess, from the useless heavy attacks, to the whole rebalance. Top weapons will be good the same while the others can be thrown in the toilet.

Edited by bibmobello
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Only thing I can see them being used for anything is if they're giving them ridiculous crit and status chances, meaning 50% or above.

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5 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Only thing I can see them being used for anything is if they're giving them ridiculous crit and status chances, meaning 50% or above.

Hahaha yes for sure...You have found the right developer. In every other game (generally) if a weapon is hard to use more, it deals more  damage, here it's the opposite. I think they use the 2 girls only like beta testers on level 30 max because some mechanics had and have no sense at all.

Edited by bibmobello
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