What is the point of daggers? - New Rework

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Me personally to keep them relevant I'd set them up to insta fill a health, shield, or energy bar on a finisher or stealth kill...but...that's just me.

[bibmobello]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

Me personally to keep them relevant I'd set them up to insta fill a health, shield, or energy bar on a finisher or stealth kill...but...that's just me.

Yes they should have the ability to remove the armor with some stances, just for example.

[Goodwill]

Increase stealth and finisher damage (like, ludicrously more than any other weapon type) and ignores armor on enemies with flesh.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Goodwill

[Guest]

IMO daggers should have extremely high crit and combos with finishers/armor-ignoring attacks

Edited October 19, 2019 by Guest

[DoomFruit]

19 minutes ago, Goodwill said:

Increase stealth and finisher damage (like, ludicrously more than any other weapon type) and ignores armor on enemies with flesh.

Are we going to have finishers with our melee weapon any more? The devstream said something about putting covert lethality on the wristblade thing, so by that I'd assume that finishers are done that way instead (which is annoying, sleepinox is the best way to level a melee weapon).

[S.Dust]

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if daggers went straight to the trash with dual daggers, they've been ignored forever and from what they're shown they're doing it doesn't look like there is anything that will suddenly make them good. The weapons will always have the least range and I doubt DE are willing to give them any kind of significant benefit over other weapons because they already took away covert lethality which was the one thing they had. Anyone saying you haven't seen the stats yet doesn't realize that the stats on the weapon only matter so much, warframe is a horde shoot and none of the changes they've shown will make daggers any better at killing a crowd so they could have at least left them their single target damage.

[-Kittens-]

9 hours ago, trst said:

What in the world are you going on about? Covert Lethality, Condition Overload, and Bloodrush are not in any capacity required for killing such enemies nor are they required for farming Kuva. But I really don't see why you're bringing up Rivens anyways.

There isn't even any practical reason whatsoever for anyone to be going against lv250 enemies and anything farmed from endless missions don't need to get gained in one sitting. There is little difference between two 20 minute Survivals and one 40 minute Survival and zero difference for Kuva Survival since Kuva gains are on a fixed rate.

Sure if we're going to lose the infinite scaling potential of melee it will make endurance runs more difficult but again there is no reason for these anyways. Plus people did endurance runs before any of these mods existed anyways.

False. Your apparent assumption everyone has access to a gram or atterax and a riven is also false. Rivens are mentioned because they are the only reason daggers are relevant at all outside of CL/CO, and the 300% increase in damage present for the rework will not change that, and that should be your contextual clue.

The starchart simply isn't current or foreseeable 'endgame' without a radical change in either mechanics or presented enemy levels per system, and that's not an opinion, that's simple fact.

Secondly thanks to two mechanics ala farm-frames and farm kavats, kuva return is not a fixed intake, and the current mechanics favor better returns off longer sustained sessions. Synthetic suppostion does not actual gameplay make, and daggers will have to have essentially zaw/prime stats to be worth a damn even with a 300% increase in base damage, unless every stance now reads "300% melee damage and automatic slash and viral proc" for every hit after the first.

[Diavoros]

All melee weapons are getting a base damage buff + base range buff. Stinging thorn is a great stance with several hits and good procs, even a finisher, but the problem with daggers is low damage per hit and very low range that didn't make them feasible for engaging crowds, however, the melee changes in the upcoming patch might fix that and make them viable for general gameplay without needing a crutch as covert lethality.

[trst]

5 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

False. Your apparent assumption everyone has access to a gram or atterax and a riven is also false. Rivens are mentioned because they are the only reason daggers are relevant at all outside of CL/CO, and the 300% increase in damage present for the rework will not change that, and that should be your contextual clue.

The starchart simply isn't current or foreseeable 'endgame' without a radical change in either mechanics or presented enemy levels per system, and that's not an opinion, that's simple fact.

Secondly thanks to two mechanics ala farm-frames and farm kavats, kuva return is not a fixed intake, and the current mechanics favor better returns off longer sustained sessions. Synthetic suppostion does not actual gameplay make, and daggers will have to have essentially zaw/prime stats to be worth a damn even with a 300% increase in base damage, unless every stance now reads "300% melee damage and automatic slash and viral proc" for every hit after the first.

I haven't made any assumptions about anyone's gear or the use of Rivens. But yes, Rivens make bad weapons better and right now Daggers are worthless without other crutch mods. None of the changes will affect how Rivens make melee weapons better besides giving them even more damage with the base damage increase. Even the changes to how range is added is still going to give them all better range.

Nobody ever said the starchart is or will be endgame.

Perhaps I should have specified that Kuva Survival has a fixed minimum rate; 200 every 90 seconds doubled to 400 with a booster. And farming frames have zero impact on any Kuva sources as the only enemy that drops Kuva is the Demolisher units on the Kuva Fortress which afaik aren't affected by any farm abilities. Then while the double resource buff from Kavats does affect Kuva rates it's still a random effect that you have very limited control over.

And all of that considered there is still no difference between two 20 minute survivals and a single 40 minute survival. Unless you find the 60 seconds to extract and load back in so much of a hindrance to your gains.

[TheLyricAinu]

Frankly, I'm simply worried about how daggers will be compared to other weapons. I know that to a degree, it's not entirely reasonable. After all, we're not gonna compare a rank zero Skana used by Excalibur to a Berserker five forma Gram Prime used by a Redlining Gauss or Chroma Prime. I'm just concerned about how many weapons will be able to do everything daggers can do to a higher degree. And with Covert Lethality gone, daggers have lost their only "gimmick"; nothing to make them stand out from the crowd. At least, with the info we know right now. My current stance on the change for daggers is one of pretty extreme caution, especially given that daggers are one of my favorite weapon types simply because of what they are, but I trust DE to not throw daggers/dual daggers into the next system over. 
I feel like the rebalance is totally gonna screw with the damage of Zaw's though and I'm kinda excited to see the hilarity that ensues before they fix any unintended damage values

[Somi_xD]

Daggers gona be dead again, until they find some magic way to give them any purpose.
Doesn't matter if they pimp some dagger stats or if range modes give flat stats instead of %.
 

[Enxchiol]

On 2019-10-19 at 11:39 AM, -Kittens- said:

 

To get enough kuva to roll on something 96 times, you need to spend two hours minimum in KS/KD with a booster.

 

Oh it's much more than 2 hours. 2 hours of Kuva survival lets you do 8 rolls(assuming 8+ rolls, which  is very little compared to 96). Kuva for 96 rerolls would take you a little less than 24 hours of Kuva survival.

[Hypernaut1]

Daggers should have innate 4x+ crit damage, and 80% status chance and speed. I would leave crit chance where it is.  Now daggers become a weapon that has a chance to do great damage and at, least guarantees, a status effect. 

i would also make them throwable like a glaive, but they stick in an enemy continuously applying status effects. All stealth kills with a dagger should have insane multipliers

Edited October 22, 2019 by Hypernaut1

[Peter]

Daggers are great enough, no change needed!

[Renginus]

covert lethality is stupid mod.

[TheLyricAinu]

On 2019-10-22 at 8:13 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

Daggers should have innate 4x+ crit damage, and 80% status chance and speed. I would leave crit chance where it is.  Now daggers become a weapon that has a chance to do great damage and at, least guarantees, a status effect. 

i would also make them throwable like a glaive, but they stick in an enemy continuously applying status effects. All stealth kills with a dagger should have insane multipliers

... I honestly can't tell if this is a joke or not. Though the "thrown dagger" idea is pretty cool. Maybe a ranged finisher type deal.

[Zebiko]

Many like long range weapons, including myself. Longer range melees are basically aoe weapons that inflict higher dps the more range they have, because then can hit more enemies at the same time. Daggers and other short range weapons should have proportionally higher damage for their lack of range, a compensation.

[Marvelous_A]

How about they cater the dual daggers first these poor weapons have never been useful since launch. Not even CL works on them.

[Teridax68]

I definitely agree that daggers, even with Covert Lethality, don't feel like they have a place in the game right now, as they lack the reach and damage output of our more meta melee weapons, while offering no advantages of their own. My take on updating daggers:

• Give daggers as a weapon class the highest stealth damage multiplier, e.g. 50x, 100x, or some similarly huge amount. Currently, daggers have a 3.2x multiplier, whereas hammers and rapiers have a 24x multiplier. In other words, hammers and rapiers are currently several times better at stealth-killing than daggers, which is bonkers.
• Significantly increase the attack speed and damage of daggers, so that they outpace the DPS of room blenders: daggers would still be lacking in reach, but would at least kill any individual target far quicker, which I think should be their niche.

[Univarous]

What's the point of sparring weapons? Fist weapons? Gunsen? It's for variety.

[VentiGlondi]

You got so blinded by your instakill finishers that you didn't notice three million slash procs per second you get with carving mantis's combos.

[SneakyErvin]

The point of daggers would be the sharp end that goes into people.

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

We'll see what they give them statwise and combo wise, since up to this point the only reason to use daggers was leveling them or covert lethality.  I hope they give them something, because daggers are sweet as hell.  

[ArcticHelix]

Dual daggers need love like the most out of all the melee weapons. You know why? No one goes hey this [Name here] is a great dual dagger. We got 3 dual daggers 2 normal and a prime and the prime is worse then its base varient (talking about the fang and fang prime) the other one well thats just know as "raphs daggers".

[Oreades]

Daggers could definitely use something cause even tho what I've seen has only been preliminary they really do seem to be getting the super short end of the stick melee wise.