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(PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx

Anyone else feel like the combo system is about to break multiple weapon types?

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For one, post change, the zenistar is probably going to be pretty much in your junk pile. As will glaives and gun blades. As well as any of the very small number of weapons people actually used the charged attack on. 

I kinda feel like sometimes they forget that half their stuff exists and just randomly excrete out a mechancis change and then they're like "oh crap we forgot that was a thing that existed.............. Oh well it's trash now just delete it."

Here's a better solution.

Some weapons, especially big heavy weapons, you hold down the combo trigger key to charge combo power into the weapon, the more you charge, the more damage and the bigger the area of effect, then you release and blam. Short charge, small effect, big charge, big effect.. Other weapons, hitting combo should put the weapon into an exalted state where it uses a specialized melee Stance similar to how valkyr claws and excalibur's blade have exalted stances, not using either of those stances but similar to how that system works, this "limit break" stance persists continuously until the combo counter has hit zero and ends. Then you have weapons that are based around repeated use of heavy attacks like say glaives, gun blades, or other thrown weapons like the wolf's hammer. These would use a predetermined amount of the combo bar, or could perhaps be charged to use more of the bar but have added effect... Such as glaives when you hold down the buton you can quickly move the crosshair over enemies to assign targets, or the corpus glaive to have a bigger explosion on impact, or how long the orvius keeps a target trapped.

Simply making the combo system a one and done system is a great way to ruin some of the few weapons that people actually used for their heavy attacks. As it is the gun blade should really be using the same sweet spot mechanic as already used by glaives when used with a one hand side arm.... I do not feel they are making a wise decision here. In fact I think they are making a very poorly thought out decision because they want to get something out and in the game after well over a year of waiting and instead of putting out something that's ready, they're putting out what they have. 

Everyone says "Well we'll have to wait and see what it works like when we get it in our hands".............. I'll tell you right now. You're going to get like three weeks of "Yay new melee system" and then six months of "this combo bar is trash, please Revert." One bandaid isn't going to fix this, the "combo bar eating power strike" will work on some weapons. Mostly heavy weapons. It is not going to work on a lot of the rest and might actually make the over all issue of people only using heavy long range weapons much worse instead of better. 

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16 minutes ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

For one, post change, the zenistar is probably going to be pretty much in your junk pile. As will glaives and gun blades. As well as any of the very small number of weapons people actually used the charged attack on. 

I'm not 100% sure why would you think this, at least in terms of the combo system (changes to Blood Rush and Condition Overload are separate topics). They say that heavy attacks can be done whenever: the combo counter just increases their damage. In the current game and out of that list, only Gunblade charge attacks benefit from the combo counter—but it has ranged attacks throughout its stances, so it should work no worse than any melee weapon. Glaive throws and the Zenistar disk don't benefit from the combo counter as-is, so neither lose out in that fashion. They're also talking about increasing the damage of weapons, so it's highly unlikely for the default damage of those charge attacks to go down. Moreover, they mention Glaive throws can add to the combo counter (this could include Gunblades and Zenistar?), so it would be gaining that as a bonus.

What, exactly, are these weapons losing compared to what they already have?

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1 minute ago, Tyreaus said:

I'm not 100% sure why would you think this, at least in terms of the combo system (changes to Blood Rush and Condition Overload are separate topics). They say that heavy attacks can be done whenever: the combo counter just increases their damage. In the current game and out of that list, only Gunblade charge attacks benefit from the combo counter—but it has ranged attacks throughout its stances, so it should work no worse than any melee weapon. Glaive throws and the Zenistar disk don't benefit from the combo counter as-is, so neither lose out in that fashion. They're also talking about increasing the damage of weapons, so it's highly unlikely for the default damage of those charge attacks to go down. Moreover, they mention Glaive throws can add to the combo counter (this could include Gunblades and Zenistar?), so it would be gaining that as a bonus.

What, exactly, are these weapons losing compared to what they already have?

Perhaps I was wrong. What was implied to me is that your combo bar has to have something in it to be worth using. Logically this would mean that the effectiveness of zenistar would depend on you having builta  big combo counter first.

If in deed you can use the heavy attack even with a zero combo bar which is not what they seem to be talking about, then I guess we'll just have to see. 

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1 minute ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

Perhaps I was wrong. What was implied to me is that your combo bar has to have something in it to be worth using. Logically this would mean that the effectiveness of zenistar would depend on you having builta  big combo counter first.

If in deed you can use the heavy attack even with a zero combo bar which is not what they seem to be talking about, then I guess we'll just have to see. 

Just to add a source from the dev workshop:

14 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Heavy Attacks (Alt-Fire for Melee) - Heavy attacks can now occur at any time, simply by pressing the Alt-fire button while you have melee equipped or in your hand. This costs all of your Combo Counter (affected by Mods), so make sure you lay down the hurt! If you don’t have any Combo Counter active, you will use a Heavy Attack, but it will not benefit from any damage bonus from the Combo Counter. 

Based on that quote, it seems that no combo counter = same damage we have now, and the combo counter adds a multiplier to that base. I.e., 0 combo = 1x multiplier. Assuming that's the case, that could actually make those weapons disgustingly powerful. And that's also assuming they don't increase the base damage of charge attacks alongside the increases in base attack damages (which could happen).

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27 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Glaive throws and the Zenistar disk don't benefit from the combo counter as-is,

 

Glaives actually benefit greatly from melee combo counter, esp Glaive Prime.

I'll have to watch the stream at some point. Not sure what OP means but since they took effort more recently with dual wield for glaives and wanted to add additional options to that I kinda doubt charge attacks like throw mechanics are in trouble but wouldn't be the first time DE just forgot about game mechanics either.

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3 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Glaives actually benefit greatly from melee combo counter, esp Glaive Prime.

It doesn't seem they do for charge attacks. On dual-wielded uncharged and single-wielded charged attacks against corrupted bombards:

  • 2x combo = 1908, 2316 slash proc
  • 1.5x combo = 1908, 2316 slash proc
  • no combo = 1908, 2316 slash proc
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38 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

It doesn't seem they do for charge attacks. On dual-wielded uncharged and single-wielded charged attacks against corrupted bombards:

  • 2x combo = 1908, 2316 slash proc
  • 1.5x combo = 1908, 2316 slash proc
  • no combo = 1908, 2316 slash proc

 

Are you using the manual detonation? Combo meter only works for direct impacts.

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2 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Are you using the manual detonation? Combo meter only works for direct impacts.

No detonation at all, with direct hits against the targets. Tests with fully charged dual-wielded rendered similar, too. (Discarded that finding initially since it was dual wield only)

Edited by Tyreaus

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54 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

No detonation at all, with direct hits against the targets. Tests with fully charged dual-wielded rendered similar, too. (Discarded that finding initially since it was dual wield only)

 

Oh wow, I forgot. I was looking through old footage cuz I used Glaives a lot and found a post from 2017 I made about it no longer working.

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have not tried this yet, so I'm trying to remain optimistic but I do have a sincere concern about the loss of combo counter damage multiplier and possible range nerfs to large melee.

unless damage is getting an overall 3X buff (the current reasonable max for combo buff, you can get much higher with naramon, but that's a whole different thing, which is likely to need touching)... then enemy armor scaling is going to more or less make melee no longer a viable option to use in long arbitrations.  this is because arbitrations require melee nuking to really do anything after the 60 min mark for a pug, which will discourage pug play and only premades will have the option of going this long or longer due to enemy armor scaling.  

effectively it will kill this portion of the game from a pug standpoint which is currently one that I find more enjoyable as the vet with 5.7k+ hours.

once you get to about the 45 min mark enemy armor starts getting dumb to deal with and saryn is only so tanky and arb drones effectively mess up her spores to strip armor.  essentially this also kills frame choice, because with proper melee investment, all frames are viable for arbs right now... if they aren't after this, you'll know why.

this, on it's face, looks a lot like "sorry, get out" and forces everyone into using magus lockdown as the only viable alternative at that level, which is still very poor at armored units like grineer.

I felt the recent arbitration changes were all very good, but this just seems to revert it back to the old state where people are going to return to only playing certain ones again and if we learned anything from eidolons its that you don't want  to engineer a game mode with one clearly superior meta to force players into since it robs them of choice and the ability to play whatever frame they like... this may be on track to do the same thing (like how arbs before were just excav).  And to be honest... the recent arbitrations changes... that's the first time as a vet that I've felt "rewarded" for playing at my best and min/maxing my gear in a very very long time... like, since poe came out and raids were killed.

the whole point of the combo counter is that as enemies get tougher (ie, you are no longer one shotting them), you start dealing more damage comparatively (because they remain on the screen longer and thus your combo counter fills up quicker).  right now this system works for the player.  the future system, while I haven't tried it, seems to work against the player in these modes.  

the only viable solution I can see here is that armor scaling needs to be fixed hasta pronto to compensate for this, otherwise we're going to basically be forced out of these missions because while all the fancy new animations are nice and engaging, they are also time consuming which means less speed murder, and more exposure to enemy attacks that do significantly larger amounts of damage at higher levels.

the other major concern is that range to long weapons get a significant nerf.  right now this is the only thing that makes melee worth using, and further, it's the only thing that keeps saryn in check in that people can outdamage saryn with melee regardless of what frame they have if they invest in melee properly.  slight nerfs to long range and massive buffs to short would be ideal, but killing long range means saryn becomes mandatory for all arbs with any armor, and she's too squishy to go the distance, which will also call for even more saryn nerfs and eventually long arbs becoming a thing of the past.  since these are on a 1 hour cooldown, that effectively means If vets go to 45, we spend 15 minutes out of every hour twiddling our thumbs, which kind of sucks.

If my prediction is correct, arbitration will start seeing much less engagement and a lot of your endgame folk retention will start to suffer drastically (as this is the only place we really have to go to atm because there is no other content for us other than endurance runs in arbs) unless this armor scaling gets addressed nearly immediately.  Overall this seems to be, on it's face, a moderate buff to new players and a massive nerf to older players if it works the way I think it will.  I agree that closing the gap some is good, but this is at the cost of the only game mode we have to play which is limited to a 1 hour rotation (meaning if you do 20 min of it and leave, you now have 40 minutes before you can play again for anything meaningful) and that #feelsbadman.  

I understand kuva liches are meant to be a form of entertainment for long term players, but from the looks of it, there is a static pool of mr available, and once we get the weapons we want (and rest assured, we will tear through this at least 10x faster than the average player) and collect the mr, this becomes fundamentally dead content to us and doesn't have replay value because we will have already earned the available rewards that aren't tradeable for plat as there is no listed evergreen rewards mentioned to date associated with them (though I will say I am excited to get a 30+ level kohm with innate elemental on it... that's gonna be broke AF since kohm is already busted).

I understand the desired goal is better engagement, but if you want that, we NEED enemy scaling addressed like... with that patch to prevent massive salt storms, otherwise forecast looks very grim.

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11 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

the other major concern is that range to long weapons get a significant nerf.  right now this is the only thing that makes melee worth using, and further, it's the only thing that keeps saryn in check in that people can outdamage saryn with melee regardless of what frame they have if they invest in melee properly.  slight nerfs to long range and massive buffs to short would be ideal, but killing long range means saryn becomes mandatory for all arbs with any armor, and she's too squishy to go the distance, which will also call for even more saryn nerfs and eventually long arbs becoming a thing of the past.  since these are on a 1 hour cooldown, that effectively means If vets go to 45, we spend 15 minutes out of every hour twiddling our thumbs, which kind of sucks.
 

Mostly im in agreement with what you've said. 

My real feeling is that there is only one "real" way to make short range weapons, such as brawling gloves, boxing gloves, daggers, swords and nikanas, tonfas, etc, into a viable alternative is going to be melee magnetism. Something that almost every other third person melee game hsa figured out is a necessary component and yet something that De works ever, ever so hard to avoid implementing. In this, "range" is not calculated in "how far will each strike register, but rather  how far you can be from a target without being magnetized to them. 

I hate to use Destiny for an example for /anything/ but for example, in destiny, the range stat on a sword is the determiner of rather you will be magnetized to a target, if there is no target in range you will just slash the blade, but if there is a target within magnetized range, you will be connected to it. The "environment" swords, ie sword of Crota, have by far the longest range, and air strikes will cover a significant distance to attempt to complete an attack on a target. Meanwhile the very short range hunter sword you have to be practically ontop of the target. 

Examples outside of destiny, both the DMC series, and Kingdom Hearts series, also melee focused games, also use melee magnetism. You press the button to swing your equipped weapon, if you are within the sphere of influence of that weapon, your melee will be magnetized to the target, if not, you just swing your weapon fruitlessly.

An alternative would be "lock on" physics like those of the dark cloud and zelda games, which allow you to lock onto a target and either fire weapons at or close or pull back in reaction to their actions, but this would require Warframe to abandon much of what people play about it, you'd have to abandon the massive swarms of enemies and instead favor single targets with a lot of defense and offense that has to be approached carefully. This would not be a welcome addition to the game by most players hence my preference of magnetism. 

Large weapons like heavy blades, staves, etc, this isn't a big deal, they do area of effect damage, but small, close range weapons? They need magnetism or else you just stand there weapon dancing and not actually accomplishing anything. If melee 3.0 does not include that feature, then nothing they have done is going to matter. People will just either stop using melee, which would be a total failure on the part of DE and would likely result to it just being returned to the current game state once they start losing customers, or people will still exclusively use the longest range weapons and ignore anything shorter. 

What is needed is for all short range weapons to do measurably more damage based on range, the shorter the range, the greater the damage, crit, status, whatever, and magnetism to make sure your strikes land on target. For instance the Hirudo should always magnetize to the nearest target in range, "distance" close to that target, rapidly inflict a great deal of damage, and on target death magnetize to the next nearest target, so that you are chaining one rapid kill after another, meanwhile your long range weapons may, over all, kill more enemies with multiple strikes, their per target damage should be lower, meaning that you will spend more time exposed to those targets even if on the whole you do kill more targets. IE a person using brawling gloves or a dagger might not be able to do damage over a wide area, but they can dart in and jab a fist or a blade into that heavy gunner or bombard, rapidly taking the most dangerous target down first, then rapidly switching to the next target, and the next, rapid movements leaving them less exposed to sustained fire. 

Put that another way, at high levels, movement means life, the longer you stay in one place, the more dead you become. making short range weapons into something that does a lot, a lot, a lot, of damage to one target and then quickly moves to the next means you aren't standing still long enough to draw swarm fire, but those big wide area of effect weapons may over all kill more but leave you standing still longer. That would be a good balance, 

Anyway, all of that aside, yes i really think that if they aren't adding melee magnetism to the game, nothing they do is going to get people using short range weapons.  

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11 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

unless damage is getting an overall 3X buff (the current reasonable max for combo buff, you can get much higher with naramon, but that's a whole different thing, which is likely to need touching)... then enemy armor scaling is going to more or less make melee no longer a viable option to use in long arbitrations.  this is because arbitrations require melee nuking to really do anything after the 60 min mark for a pug, which will discourage pug play and only premades will have the option of going this long or longer due to enemy armor scaling.

Assuming that the change shown is both final and consistent across all weapons, then we're getting a ~3.5x damage buff.

See https://www.warframe.com/news/devstream-132-overview

The unmodded Skana in the picture there has damage stats of 18/18/84. Right now, we have 5.3/5.3/24.5.

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12 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

have not tried this yet, so I'm trying to remain optimistic but I do have a sincere concern about the ... possible range nerfs to large melee.

FWIW, they have a gif on the dev workshop post that shows a casowar and a 7/10 ranked Primed Reach before and after that look very close together. I can't imagine that would deviate too far at the top. And their intent seems to be to bring shorter-ranged weapons up to that, so... [shrug]

42 minutes ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

My real feeling is that there is only one "real" way to make short range weapons, such as brawling gloves, boxing gloves, daggers, swords and nikanas, tonfas, etc, into a viable alternative is going to be melee magnetism

I think the problem with this, and the problem with lock-on mechanics (which you mentioned), is that Warframe is very much toward the 'horde' end of things. Short-ranged weapons aren't used often in large part due to their single-target nature. Daggers had Covert Lethality as the ultimate single-target damage dealing mechanism, and wider-reaching weapons were still much more prevalent. Granted, probably because those longer-reaching weapons could still take care of 90-95% of the game just fine - something I don't sense is changing much with the melee updates and the bonus base damage, though... It's likely a big reason why they're moving CL and updating combos and how Range works, so that those formerly single-target weapons can get at least a few extra enemies in their sights and they become better at swathing through crowds.

That said, FWIW, Warframe does have melee auto-targeting that they're (at least partly) keeping in the new version. It's not the same kind of forward-momentum magnetism, but it does exist. As do a number of combos that lunge the player forward, combining with the auto-targeting into a sort of pseudo-magnetism.

Edited by Tyreaus

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9 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

FWIW, they have a gif on the dev workshop post that shows a casowar and a 7/10 ranked Primed Reach before and after that look very close together. I can't imagine that would deviate too far at the top. And their intent seems to be to bring shorter-ranged weapons up to that, so... [shrug]

I mean lets hope so.  I'd be happy to see other weapons made more viable rather than current stuff made less.  Ideally it should be somewhere around each having nuance and reasons to use it over something else, but also close enough where you just might choose to use something because it's cool, because the difference isn't that huge.

 

 

29 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

Assuming that the change shown is both final and consistent across all weapons, then we're getting a ~3.5x damage buff.

I have sincere doubts it's entirely consistent.  whenever they do stuff like this they usually want to flip around metas and such to force people into using different gear.  

 

50 minutes ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

Put that another way, at high levels, movement means life, the longer you stay in one place, the more dead you become.

yeah, this is the thing I don't think they really took into account with all the fancy mechanics outside of the gap closer and tactical dodge and animation cancel, all the rest seems to work against speed murder rather than for it.

I honestly feel they just don't want people to play at that speed even though that speed is what's fun for most of us at this point because if we can actually see the environment and enemy then we're going to slow and are dead, otherwise there is no semblance of challenge in the game, and that's not going to change unless they fix enemy scaling.

Edited by Klokwerkaos

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On 2019-10-19 at 12:15 AM, Tyreaus said:

I'm not 100% sure why would you think this, at least in terms of the combo system (changes to Blood Rush and Condition Overload are separate topics). They say that heavy attacks can be done whenever: the combo counter just increases their damage. In the current game and out of that list, only Gunblade charge attacks benefit from the combo counter—but it has ranged attacks throughout its stances, so it should work no worse than any melee weapon. Glaive throws and the Zenistar disk don't benefit from the combo counter as-is, so neither lose out in that fashion. They're also talking about increasing the damage of weapons, so it's highly unlikely for the default damage of those charge attacks to go down. Moreover, they mention Glaive throws can add to the combo counter (this could include Gunblades and Zenistar?), so it would be gaining that as a bonus.

What, exactly, are these weapons losing compared to what they already have?

The problem is that using a heavy attack completely deletes your combo counter. You are going to be able to mod so you keep some of it but that costs a slot and is probably going to be a % value that is way too low. You are still going to be losing most of the benefits of the core melee mods that scale based on the combo counter.

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2 minutes ago, Rogunz said:

The problem is that using a heavy attack completely deletes your combo counter. You are going to be able to mod so you keep some of it but that costs a slot and is probably going to be a % value that is way too low. You are still going to be losing most of the benefits of the core melee mods that scale based on the combo counter.

Many of those mods, e.g. Blood Rush as I mentioned, are being changed to work on a different counter independent of the heavy attack combo counter.

Also, the thread is talking about weapons whose charge attacks don't benefit from the combo counter in the first place, Gunblades (which have default attacks that shoot the weapon, so aren't fundamentally different from regular melee weapons the same way Glaive and Zenistar throws are different from their close-ranged regular attacks) aside.

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2 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Many of those mods, e.g. Blood Rush as I mentioned, are being changed to work on a different counter independent of the heavy attack combo counter.

Can you point to anywhere they have said that?

If you look at the proposed changes to mods everything that uses the combo counter is still using the same combo counter including blood rush.

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21 minutes ago, Rogunz said:

Can you point to anywhere they have said that?

If you look at the proposed changes to mods everything that uses the combo counter is still using the same combo counter including blood rush.

Ah, apologies, I misread the workshop post.

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