Jarriaga Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) A Kuva Lich B-slapping Excalibur like he's a worthless bug is how they are being promoted. They will be at our level. They will be able to make your WF feel pain like no enemy has done never before. They can not be killed using just DPS like cannon fodder enemies. They can reverse the tide of the battle against you. They are proof that the concept of a "power fantasy" in which you nuke everything left and right with little to no opposition is not how things role in the WF universe and the Tenno have limits. Change my mind. Edited October 19, 2019 by Jarriaga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnarlsDarkley Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 5 minutes ago, Jarriaga said: Change my mind. Why should we? 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xolgys Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 whats the point of this thread ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raqiya Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) Yes. I also don't see a reason to change your mind, for there to be any sort of endgame or challenge the adopted concept of power fantasy has to go. Edited October 19, 2019 by Raqiya 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LockingSoul Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Yeah, we know that tenno have limits. And we are not used to having a nuke minigun, is like the bosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)The1stAzrael Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) I don't know, it occurred to me that you could simply teach it a bunch of trash abilities/weaponry, then go out and slaughter him. Fill his slots with something like Devour, Sonic Boom, Mind Control, etc. I'm also curious how well their AI would manage abilities like Speed or Tailwind. Edited October 19, 2019 by (PS4)The1stAzrael Added something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myscho Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 We has been practically immortal for 6 years, now its time to change it 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeekerErebus Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 The Kuva Lich's feel very much like an attempt to use the Nemesis system pioneered by Middle Earth Shadow of Mordor. Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War didn't lose any of the power fantasy they provided because these enemies were very capable and often dangerous. They did provide a solid revenge motivation for when they did kill me, and a serious feeling of superiority at taking advantage of their weaknesses and putting them in their place, under my boot with their head on a spike. If anything, I felt significantly more powerful for having defeated them than I ever did killing random orcs. A power fantasy isn't destroyed because you aren't the only one with power. The endless cannon fodder grunts are still proof of how utterly lethal we are. An enemy that is also powerful, that demands we prove ourselves it's superior or suffer for our weakness; that's the kinda thing great games are made of. IMO, if done right, this could easily be the best thing added to WF in years. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakaul Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Aren't they supporting the power-fantasty as you win against this Immortal force that is your supposed equal? Like killing Titans that could contend with your own Power, kinda makes you definitely in that Fantasy of Power, when you beat down Contenders to your throne eh? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AEP8FlyBoy Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 I for one embrace the rise of our Kuva-enriched Overlords. I desire a challenge. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 OP, are you really upset you might have to actually face a challenge? You do know there's a thing called "Ranged attacks", correct? You'll be alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabbynaru Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 I'll have to wait and see how they play out, cause I have a feeling they won't trouble me that much. I'm fine with mini-bosses, frankly. They'll be the Lu Bu of Warframe if they truly are challenging (which again, I doubt), or just another miniboss, like the Stalker or Wolf if they aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatose Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) "When will you learn? I'm immortal" is a statement that only make sense if you are talking to someone who has not only previously 'killed' you, but has done so enough times that you're actually capable of expressing disbelief that they're still bothering to. This is not a statement made by a threat. This is a statement made by someone who's gotten their behind handed to them over and over again. Edited October 19, 2019 by Phatose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Shelneroth Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 6 minutes ago, Zakaul said: Aren't they supporting the power-fantasty as you win against this Immortal force that is your supposed equal? Like killing Titans that could contend with your own Power, kinda makes you definitely in that Fantasy of Power, when you beat down Contenders to your throne eh? I think this sums it up. It partialy depends on how one is defining "power fantasy". If it solely involves obliterating opponents then the concept is rendered void by any form of challange. Scaling enemies meet this criteria. Eventually you always meet an opponent tougher then yourself. However if the framing of a challange is relevant to "power fantasy" then I think kuva liches still fit. They are an enemy of equivilant power that only you have the means to defeat. The enemy having to put everything they have into almost equalling you, and still being defeated plays into a type of power fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarriaga Posted October 19, 2019 Author Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said: Why should we? For argument's sake (If you don't agree with me). 2 hours ago, Xydeth said: whats the point of this thread ? To highlight that we are not meant to be nuking everything left and right at all times with little to no opposition as a counter to those who do not accept any kind of nerf or difficulty spike under the argument of "this is a power fantasy". 2 hours ago, Raqiya said: Yes. I also don't see a reason to change your mind, for there to be any sort of endgame or challenge the adopted concept of power fantasy has to go. Agreed. I'm excited to try the system after DE showed the ancient "spell" mods. Trial and error every time until I finally get it right since no 2 Liches will be the same. 2 hours ago, LockingSoul said: Yeah, we know that tenno have limits. And we are not used to having a nuke minigun, is like the bosses. Some players don't want to accept that Tenno are meant to have limits in an effort to downplay any argument in favor of content that can't be automated. 2 hours ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said: I don't know, it occurred to me that you could simply teach it a bunch of trash abilities/weaponry, then go out and slaughter him. Fill his slots with something like Devour, Sonic Boom, Mind Control, etc. I'm also curious how well their AI would manage abilities like Speed or Tailwind. Even with trash abilities, you won't kill it unless you get the killing spell right. And while you are trying, it gets stronger. At some point even a Ripline attack could kill you. And you may lose loot/items if you die as per the dev stream notes. 2 hours ago, Myscho said: We has been practically immortal for 6 years, now its time to change it Indeed. 2 hours ago, SeekerErebus said: The Kuva Lich's feel very much like an attempt to use the Nemesis system pioneered by Middle Earth Shadow of Mordor. Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War didn't lose any of the power fantasy they provided because these enemies were very capable and often dangerous. They did provide a solid revenge motivation for when they did kill me, and a serious feeling of superiority at taking advantage of their weaknesses and putting them in their place, under my boot with their head on a spike. If anything, I felt significantly more powerful for having defeated them than I ever did killing random orcs. A power fantasy isn't destroyed because you aren't the only one with power. The endless cannon fodder grunts are still proof of how utterly lethal we are. An enemy that is also powerful, that demands we prove ourselves it's superior or suffer for our weakness; that's the kinda thing great games are made of. IMO, if done right, this could easily be the best thing added to WF in years. You nailed where I was coming from. The "power fantasy" concept thrown around here in an effort to downplay end-game content is a perversion in order to hide that those players simply want it as easy and automated/efficient as possible. Nothing makes you feel powerful like actually beating a difficult boss fight after many attempts. Particularly so when it happens to get you emotionally involved with your enemy like SoM/SoW did. 2 hours ago, Zakaul said: Aren't they supporting the power-fantasty as you win against this Immortal force that is your supposed equal? Like killing Titans that could contend with your own Power, kinda makes you definitely in that Fantasy of Power, when you beat down Contenders to your throne eh? Correct. It's just that they don't support the perverted "It's not a power fantasy if I can't nuke the map" idea thrown around in order to disregard why WF needs balancing, nerfs, and enemies that can't be one-shot. 2 hours ago, AEP8FlyBoy said: I for one embrace the rise of our Kuva-enriched Overlords. I desire a challenge. So do I. Edited October 19, 2019 by Jarriaga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarriaga Posted October 19, 2019 Author Share Posted October 19, 2019 8 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said: OP, are you really upset you might have to actually face a challenge? You do know there's a thing called "Ranged attacks", correct? You'll be alright. I see you are not aware of my post history. Check my response above this one. Stop assuming things about other people you are not familiar with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarriaga Posted October 19, 2019 Author Share Posted October 19, 2019 7 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said: I'll have to wait and see how they play out, cause I have a feeling they won't trouble me that much. I'm fine with mini-bosses, frankly. They'll be the Lu Bu of Warframe if they truly are challenging (which again, I doubt), or just another miniboss, like the Stalker or Wolf if they aren't. If they keep scaling each time they die, you'll have to put in some effort in order to kill them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annnoth Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) Theres other forms of conveying power other than just being immortal and deleting everything you see by looking at them right. Youre allowed to fail. Scale and spectacle work to achieve this too. There are other games that achieve the feeling of power fantasy pretty well while also giving you something to oppose you. Bayonetta and yakuza come to mind. Youre both just singular people going against entire forces whos power is so far beyond the standard human comprehension by comparison. Yeah if mess up you can die but the fact that it goes the same way for someone on a higher level is good. How is something like getting into a fist fight with the entire japanese mafia, getting shot and almost crippling you, and still coming back to beat the everliving hell out of everyone yet again not a power fantasy? Edited October 19, 2019 by Annnoth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said: I see you are not aware of my post history. Check my response above this one. Stop assuming things about other people you are not familiar with. Ah I see now. You were being sarcastic and actually welcome the challenge. Touche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarriaga Posted October 19, 2019 Author Share Posted October 19, 2019 5 minutes ago, Phatose said: "When will you learn? I'm immortal" is a statement that only make sense if you are talking to someone who has not only previously 'killed' you, but has done so enough times that you're actually capable of expressing disbelief that they're still bothering to. This is not a statement made by a threat. This is a statement made by someone who's gotten their behind handed to them over and over again. Perhaps. But still, each encounter is supposed to be more and more difficult with each death if the Lich scales up every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabbynaru Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Jarriaga said: If they keep scaling each time they die, you'll have to put in some effort in order to kill them. Don't they scale only if you kill them with abilities (which I rarely do)? Yeah, I still don't think they'll pose a threat. They'll be a nuisence the first few times we meet, but once I figure out the trick, they'll just be (laser) cannon fodder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACraZYHippIEZA Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 I do not see the actual problem here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loza03 Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Kuva Liches be like: Personally, the idea of overcoming an incredibly powerful opponent tickles my power fantasy, so long as it's well-designed. Bring em on! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarriaga Posted October 19, 2019 Author Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) Just now, Gabbynaru said: Don't they scale only if you kill them with abilities (which I rarely do)? Yeah, I still don't think they'll pose a threat. They'll be a nuisence the first few times we meet, but once I figure out the trick, they'll just be (laser) cannon fodder. Hopefully that's not the case. Killing them with weapons is an obvious loophole to avoid making them stronger. Edited October 19, 2019 by Jarriaga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarriaga Posted October 19, 2019 Author Share Posted October 19, 2019 Just now, ACraZYHippIEZA said: I do not see the actual problem here. Neither do I. I welcome the challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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