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Jarriaga

Kuva Liches are incompatible with the concept of "power fantasy". Change my mind.

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3 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Don't they scale only if you kill them with abilities (which I rarely do)? Yeah, I still don't think they'll pose a threat. They'll be a nuisence the first few times we meet, but once I figure out the trick, they'll just be (laser) cannon fodder.

They mentioned you can only kill them - temporarily or otherwise - with the Parazon. At least that's my understanding. The ability kill is the initial 'activation' of the Lich.

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Just now, Loza03 said:

Kuva Liches be like:

Image result for easy mode is now selectable

 

Personally, the idea of overcoming an incredibly powerful opponent tickles my power fantasy, so long as it's well-designed. Bring em on!

Bring it on indeed.

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1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

Neither do I. I welcome the challenge

Indeed, the power fantasy itself is a good thing to have for a while, but you tend to get bored, mindlessly gunning through enemies without real challenge.
This is a welcoming and refreshing change.

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1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

They mentioned you can only kill them - temporarily or otherwise - with the Parazon. At least that's my understanding. The ability kill is the initial 'activation' of the Lich.

Yeah, they really didn't explain the system that well so far, or maybe it just went through many iterations and they showed off a few of them, which is why it's so confusing to comprehend how the system works currently. As I said, I'll have to wait and see, but I don't expect a threat that much bigger than Wolf or Shadow Stalker.

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Maybe the concept of "power fantasy" needs to get shaken up a little bit. Enough people are getting pretty bored with the gameplay. I don't know where it became the tenable truth to Warframe gameplay that you should mow down whatever faces you over and over again in micro seconds. I personally find it so mind numbing and dull that it is the sole reason I no longer play the game. They can add content, add game modes, whatever else. So long as there's no challenge to be faced in the combat itself what's fun about it?

If anything this is a postive, there needs to be more challenging AI all over the star chart. If not challenge, something more fun...

Edited by ikkabotz
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Good.  “Muh power fantasy!” Whining has shackled this games potential long enough.  If you’re so desperate for a power fantasy that the lichee upset you (no you, op, I’m speaking in general) then start going to the gym or play with action figures.  

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Kuva Liches might break it but Kuva Liches are not the entire game. That also assumes they even live up to the hype DE is making around them. I wouldnt give the animations too much importance for their impact on the overall power fantasy. Afterall Manics already have a pretty vicious finisher they can do on frames.

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Good. I don't play the game to feel superior and invincible.

 

I should specify: I don't want to feel superior and invincible without earning it through skill. Inbefore PvE games can't be skillful.

Edited by AuroraSonicBoom
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sounds like it gives me just the power fantasy i'd like, which is me actually conquering something imposing and feeling powerful, rather than just knocking down things mindlessly in a forgettable haze. 

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1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

A Kuva Lich B-slapping Excalibur like he's a worthless bug is how they are being promoted.

They will be at our level. They will be able to make your WF feel pain like no enemy has done never before. They can not be killed using just DPS like cannon fodder enemies. They can reverse the tide of the battle against you. They are proof that the concept of a "power fantasy" in which you nuke everything left and right with little to no opposition is not how things role in the WF universe and the Tenno have limits.

Change my mind.

Unless you're like the Ash Prime player I encountered a few years ago in a Sortie that did nothing but nikana p melee spam Lech Kril for the entire like a fly stuck to a sticky trap, that probably won't happen if you play it smart against a Kuva Lich.

Fight smarter, not harder!

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When did the concept of a power fantasy become synonymous with there not being any challenge?

Superman is the most powerful of the powerful and even he is "challenged", has the concept of power been so warped that Superman is no longer someone who lives a power fantasy? If I am able to fight an immortal godly figure than I feel powerful even if we are toe to toe, my "power fantasy" is fulfilled. You don't have to always be winning to feel a sense of overwhelming power.

 

Power fantasies come in many shapes and sizes, Destiny and Borderlands are both a power fantasy despite you being less powerful than in Warframe. What the OP is thinking of is the game handing everything to you on a silver platter.

Edited by DrBorris
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1 hour ago, SeekerErebus said:

The Kuva Lich's feel very much like an attempt to use the Nemesis system pioneered by Middle Earth Shadow of Mordor. Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War didn't lose any of the power fantasy they provided because these enemies were very capable and often dangerous. They did provide a solid revenge motivation for when they did kill me, and a serious feeling of superiority at taking advantage of their weaknesses and putting them in their place, under my boot with their head on a spike. If anything, I felt significantly more powerful for having defeated them than I ever did killing random orcs.

A power fantasy isn't destroyed because you aren't the only one with power. The endless cannon fodder grunts are still proof of how utterly lethal we are. An enemy that is also powerful, that demands we prove ourselves it's superior or suffer for our weakness; that's the kinda thing great games are made of. IMO, if done right, this could easily be the best thing added to WF in years. 

Actually it harkens back further for me to when you had to drop trinkets and gems into gear in Diablo 2 was it?  Ultima Online? 

Drop the pieces in to make a unique name and get a power...switch them around for something different.

Anyway,  I’ve always loved Warframe’s power fantasy equation of speed and strength vs mobs (basically a 3D version of Diablo 2 which had roots in Gauntlet and Berserker before that).  Never gets old.

When they deviated from it with Eidelons, that gameplay was a decent change.

When they made speed, tactics, AND firepower largely useless with the Profit Taker and the enemy spam surrounding her, I disliked it.

Where was I?  Oh yes, puzzle pieces chain a power and a name together...EXCEPT...

It might only work as an exact key match that unlocks and deactivates the Lich Invulnerability.

So it’s very much going to be a monologuing, bloviating indestructible version of a Nox?

Congratulations, vets.  

My biggest fear is that you’ve complained yourself into an enemy that takes everything fun about Warframe and throws it into a dumpster and lights it on fire.

And then asks you to enjoy a Lua spy mission that is repeatedly killing you over and over as you try to solve it.  

Prove me wrong. 😆

 

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1 hour ago, OmegaDonut said:

Good.  “Muh power fantasy!” Whining has shackled this games potential long enough.  If you’re so desperate for a power fantasy that the lichee upset you (no you, op, I’m speaking in general) then start going to the gym or play with action figures.  

Agreed. I'm very eager to try the system out. 

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12 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

My biggest fear is that you’ve complained yourself into an enemy that takes everything fun about Warframe and throws it into a dumpster and lights it on fire.

I find it sad that we have gotten to the point where the only thing the vocal community thinks is "fun" about Warframe is mass murder. The intricacies of the movement system, the huge variety of weaponry, the depth of Warframe design, interesting enemy tactics, none of that matters anymore. All anyone seems to care about is a wave of numbers flying across the screen, the gameplay has somehow dumbed down over the years despite DE adding more gameplay mechanics.

The systems and world DE have built have so much more potential that will never be realized because nerfs are always bad. I honestly feel bad for DE, especially Steve and Scott, they lost control of the game and their vision is held hostage.

 

Not to say that is objectively bad, if someone prefers how Warfame is than good for them. I'm happy that at least some people can be happy and content. I'm just... disappointed.

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I think it is nice to have some opposition which can challenge you if you wish to. If you wish to skip maybe you could do this. Also they just show how they could beat you with finishing animations but you also can do similar with them. If they wants challenge us they could have just implement the weakspot system what they shown to us in many devstreams ago what they scrapped in the end because they knew it may distract a lot of people.

 

We will see how the changes turns out and how liches will work.

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2 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

The intricacies of the movement system, the huge variety of weaponry, the depth of Warframe design, interesting enemy tactics, none of that matters anymore.

That post is not wrong though. Kuva Liches could be made to disable abilities, ground you (like, an AOE that disables bullet jumping, parkour and speed bonuses), be immune to weapons and powers (or at least bullet spongy as heck) and be a dumb straight line chaser. We don't know if they aren't like that yet.

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20 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I find it sad that we have gotten to the point where the only thing the vocal community thinks is "fun" about Warframe is mass murder. The intricacies of the movement system, the huge variety of weaponry, the depth of Warframe design, interesting enemy tactics, none of that matters anymore. All anyone seems to care about is a wave of numbers flying across the screen, the gameplay has somehow dumbed down over the years despite DE adding more gameplay mechanics.

The systems and world DE have built have so much more potential that will never be realized because nerfs are always bad. I honestly feel bad for DE, especially Steve and Scott, they lost control of the game and their vision is held hostage.

 

Not to say that is objectively bad, if someone prefers how Warfame is than good for them. I'm happy that at least some people can be happy and content. I'm just... disappointed.

I think we are honestly saying the same thing.  Warframe is about enjoying the journey by exploring all that DE has given us within the power fantasy structure with quick exciting gameplay.

Ultimately, if many vets were GIVEN an ultimate opponent, it would be another Tenno/Warframe controlled by another player.  But perish the thought.

As it is, DE’s only play left is immunity, RnG and nullifiers which may go next-level with liches.  

Oh, and one more...a shift away from Warframe combat altogether (See Empyrean).

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One thing I noticed about one of the animations is that the continuity spike or whatever it is, comes from the same place as the Parazon - heel of the hand/top of wrist. It's nice detail to show that they're related to you and on the same level as you, because they've got something similar to you.

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2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:
and the Tenno have limits.

The entire concept of the Zariman Kids was the symbiosis of a stronger inhuman entity (Warframes) protecting a weaker human one (Zariman Kids). The devs said as much shortly after Second Dream was first released

Of course Tenno have limits, otherwise they never would have introduced Zariman Kids and we would just have Warframes

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2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Change my mind.

My thoughts rely on the idea that this won't be constantly in your face showing up in Every. Single. Mission as a direct 'you just got the bane treatment.' 

So my thinking is this, if anything, enhances the power fantasy treatment of warframe by giving you a custom tailor made enemy that grows in power and is a challenge that you must overcome. Even as you plough through the hordes there is This Guy standing in front of you, immortal and Evolving. Adapting and Refining expressly to murder you. Then you find out how to undo that immortality amid a literal moon of blood and bone that is the sum total of your genocidal quest to End This Thing.

Power is meaningless if it is never tested. These guys are the test.

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I don't really get the fun behind a power fantasy or "nuking everything". It's boring. I play with my FiL and he pretty much refuses to play any content over level 25. Sure, he's 79 and can't play his way out of a paper bag, so he gets a pass, but for me it's as boring as watching a beauty pageant where the contestants are dead pig carcasses. Sure, it's morbidly interesting to watch the bodies parade around for a few minutes, but after that I just wait in extraction until he's gotten his jollies.

If an enemy can't offer me at least a little bit of a challenge, I'm switching the game off and firing up one that can. Cause being bored like that is as bad as being aggravated over being killed every 3 seconds. I see no reason why Warframe can't cater to both of us. 

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Some people want challenge, some people want a power fantasy.

Nobody wins, and clearly the devs hate us and want to ruin our lives!!

 

 

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