Kuva Liches are incompatible with the concept of "power fantasy". Change my mind.

[DrivaMain]

I am concerned that the lich is another rare enemy that can spawn anytime and anywhere that has a chance to ruin your run if  you are not prepared (like The Wolf ruining Hydron runs). DE should consider adding an opt out of spawning or you need to have your loadout all level 30 (Warframe, weapons, and companions) for them to spawn.

[T.Hoagie]

They're aiming to use something similar to Shadow of Mordor's Nemesis system right?, well, I like that idea.

My Nemesis in that game was a piece of work, he got a lucky kill on me the first time and I spent a majority of the rest of the game tussling with him. He had become immune to practically all my tricks, I had to get super creative to take him out. I carved up his face, lopped off an arm, burned him, you name it. He just didn't want to stay dead.

Eventually I mind controlled him, and he met his end accidentally against a war chief when I activated all my minions in that fortress and he just happened to be there.

If they can pull off even half of that with Warframe, it will be awesome.

[(XBOX)SupremeMorph]

5 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

They are proof that the concept of a "power fantasy" in which you nuke everything left and right with little to no opposition is not how things role in the WF universe and the Tenno have limits.

Good. About time we got something that can actually fight back

[(PSN)Silverback73]

2 hours ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

Something to challenge us when everything else is easily killable?

Give me 

Some context ^^😏...

Only if it is immersive and fun.  I don’t care if I can sit on a hot poker longer than the next guy trying to unlock a puzzle to remove it.

Edited October 19, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

To highlight that we are not meant to be nuking everything left and right at all times with little to no opposition as a counter to those who do not accept any kind of nerf or difficulty spike under the argument of "this is a power fantasy".

When 98% of the -live- game is still power fantasy it seems like they've still got a pretty good argument.

Maybe wait to see how hard Kuva Liches actually are--and if they're not nerfed within a couple of weeks of release, or nerfed by power creep in a month--before you start using them as evidence of the game's direction.

 

[HappyPlecostomus]

Some Tenno: Kuva Liches are too dangerous! 

 

Me as a breeder: This new pet looks interesting 

Edited October 20, 2019 by HappyFishxas

[Loza03]

10 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

I am concerned that the lich is another rare enemy that can spawn anytime and anywhere that has a chance to ruin your run if  you are not prepared (like The Wolf ruining Hydron runs). DE should consider adding an opt out of spawning or you need to have your loadout all level 30 (Warframe, weapons, and companions) for them to spawn.

I think they have learned from the Wolf, so hopefully that won't be an issue. Plus, given their nature, I imagine you'll only encounter them late-game, so that should avoid the issue of 'new player runs into something they can't possibly defeat'. They'll have to progress a bit before they come up. I can't imagine Kuva being relevant prior to the War Within.

 

Lootcaves might be affected, but I don't think DE is that wildly fond of them in the first place, so I doubt they'll put something in as a consideration for that. I've only heard legends of Vivergate, but...

[844448]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Lootcaves might be affected, but I don't think DE is that wildly fond of them in the first place, so I doubt they'll put something in as a consideration for that. I've only heard legends of Vivergate, but...

It's said they can take away your loot until you find the lich and reclaim most of it so either content with losing some of your loot from the lootcave or risk your rear kicked and get them back

Popcorn is ready for that

[SneakyErvin]

Power fantasy can be anything from wiping out hordes of mooks all the way up to struggling over and over versus a specific opponent and then beating it, restoring your power, putting you on the throne, turning you into the A-dog, making you the apex lege... (oh crap trademarked!) and so on.

Essentially any game that lets you mow through hordes while still having to give a thought about specific hard enemies are power fantasies. Not everything needs to be a one-hit-wonder. Shadow of Mordor and War are both power fantasies aswell, they also have alot of trash while still presenting you with actual challenges.

[BornWithTeeth]

The ‘power fantasy’ can get stuffed. Give us interesting things, and mechanical challenge which isn’t just BIGGER AND BIGGER NUMBERS FOREVER MORE NUMBERS THE NUMBERS TET BIGGER SO YOU HAVE TO BEAT THEM WITH YOUR OWN BIG NUMBERS

[(PSN)Silverback73]

5 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

The ‘power fantasy’ can get stuffed. Give us interesting things, and mechanical challenge which isn’t just BIGGER AND BIGGER NUMBERS FOREVER MORE NUMBERS THE NUMBERS TET BIGGER SO YOU HAVE TO BEAT THEM WITH YOUR OWN BIG NUMBERS

Whoa, calm down, chief.  Take a NUMBER and get in line and wait your turn like everyone else. 😆

[RX-3DR]

It's possible to have difficulty in a power fantasy game unless the power fantasy is feeling that you're so good at games, you can't lose.

[Aldain]

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I think they have learned from the Wolf, so hopefully that won't be an issue.

They better have learned from the Wolf, that guy was like a checklist of "Every single way to design a boring yet irritating enemy" given physical form.

[HugintheCrow]

15 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

I am concerned that the lich is another rare enemy that can spawn anytime and anywhere that has a chance to ruin your run if  you are not prepared (like The Wolf ruining Hydron runs). DE should consider adding an opt out of spawning or you need to have your loadout all level 30 (Warframe, weapons, and companions) for them to spawn.

They literally stated that won't be the case.

Remember how the Lich will "establish territory"? It's pretty obvious you'll only meeet them where they got their lair, meaning you need to actively challenge them.

Edited October 20, 2019 by HugintheCrow

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I look forward to the Infested, Corporus, and Sentient variations to come...

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

They better have learned from the Wolf, that guy was like a checklist of "Every single way to design a boring yet irritating enemy" given physical form.

Not every checkbox, he had good telegraphing for his attacks and...uh..

And...

Ok, he just had good telegraphing on his attacks.

 

Jokes aside, (not a fan of the Wolf either) the Liches do seem to have weaknesses to certain damage types and/or the oddities which can probably be manipulated to deal with them faster. All the displays, AFAIK have shown them having two types, which can likely be stacked, possibly even with health type damage weaknesses. Not to mention some gimmicks more like the Zealoid if the Demo is anything to go by (remember that Tech Lich?) Speaking of that Demo, they seem to have gotten rid of Lich damage immunities too, which is nice.

So, yeah, from what we've see they've learned from Wolfy.

[844448]

26 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Ok, he just had good telegraphing on his attacks.

Perhaps we should have the wolf upgraded? Doesn't make sense that lump of walking armor doesn't do anything to make himself faster or at least has some surprise attacks

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Perhaps we should have the wolf upgraded? Doesn't make sense that lump of walking armor doesn't do anything to make himself faster or at least has some surprise attacks

No thanks. Good telegraphing is, in fact, good design. Hence the term.

[844448]

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

No thanks. Good telegraphing is, in fact, good design. Hence the term.

Ok, no surprise attacks then but should have this guy at least able to sprint for a short duration and/or at least has something to close distance. At least give this guy a jump-slam attack like we have, that armor looks strong enough to augment it

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

22 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

A Kuva Lich B-slapping Excalibur like he's a worthless bug is how they are being promoted.

They will be at our level. They will be able to make your WF feel pain like no enemy has done never before. They can not be killed using just DPS like cannon fodder enemies. They can reverse the tide of the battle against you. They are proof that the concept of a "power fantasy" in which you nuke everything left and right with little to no opposition is not how things role in the WF universe and the Tenno have limits.

Change my mind.

That all depends on if the Nemesis system works anything like it does in Shadow of Mordor. If it does, then I agree, if not...well...I don't have very high hopes for the system to begin with. We will have to see when it comes out.

[Aldain]

40 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Jokes aside, (not a fan of the Wolf either) the Liches do seem to have weaknesses to certain damage types and/or the oddities which can probably be manipulated to deal with them faster. All the displays, AFAIK have shown them having two types, which can likely be stacked, possibly even with health type damage weaknesses. Not to mention some gimmicks more like the Zealoid if the Demo is anything to go by (remember that Tech Lich?) Speaking of that Demo, they seem to have gotten rid of Lich damage immunities too, which is nice.

So, yeah, from what we've see they've learned from Wolfy.

That sounds like a much better compromise and adjustment system rather than "Bring a Radiation Rubico Prime or be prepared to sit there for 30 minutes" like with Wolfy.

I'm outright proud that DE learned something from that debacle.

[Loza03]

5 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Ok, no surprise attacks then but should have this guy at least able to sprint for a short duration and/or at least has something to close distance. At least give this guy a jump-slam attack like we have, that armor looks strong enough to augment it

He does? His spin attack lets him close distances very quickly, and he has a hammer throw as a projectile IIRC.

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

That sounds like a much better compromise and adjustment system rather than "Bring a Radiation Rubico Prime or be prepared to sit there for 30 minutes" like with Wolfy.

I'm outright proud that DE learned something from that debacle.

Agreed. Obviously we'll have to wait and see how it comes out in practice, but hopefully it'll be a lot easier for DE to work out any kinks than the Wolf, who didn't HAVE any kinks because he was too simplistic in terms of his 'difficulty' to have any. At least until they added invincible Fugitives with him I suppose.

[844448]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

He does? His spin attack lets him close distances very quickly, and he has a hammer throw as a projectile IIRC.

Not enough apparently. My previous encounter with him was using equinox with no health/shield mod so I parkoured like mad, he wasn't able to close distance because I jumped to higher floor when he's on the ground and go back on the ground when he reached the higher floor.

(it was grineer asteroid tileset with an elevated walkway to the next room)

He needs a vertical move for that

[Loza03]

Just now, 844448 said:

Not enough apparently. My previous encounter with him was using equinox with no health/shield mod so I parkoured like mad, he wasn't able to close distance because I jumped to higher floor when he's on the ground and go back on the ground when he reached the higher floor.

(it was grineer asteroid tileset with an elevated walkway to the next room)

He needs a vertical move for that

That, maybe yes. I'll agree on that. But a sprint wouldn't exactly help there, would it?

I'm not really sure what they could give. One thought that's slightly absurd is something similar to Amy's Hammer Jump from Sonic Adventure 1 - where at top speed Amy can basically slam the ground and use the recoil from her Hammer to launch high into the air. Seen here (sorry, tried to get something more concise but couldn't.)

Spoiler

 

This might be a little... ok, extremely absurd for a giant, fully armoured meathead to do, but it's the best I can think of. Then again, so is launching himself by spinning around, so...

[RX-3DR]

Just now, Loza03 said:

That, maybe yes. I'll agree on that. But a sprint wouldn't exactly help there, would it?

I'm not really sure what they could give. One thought that's slightly absurd is something similar to Amy's Hammer Jump from Sonic Adventure 1 - where at top speed Amy can basically slam the ground and use the recoil from her Hammer to launch high into the air. Seen here (sorry, tried to get something more concise but couldn't.)

This might be a little... ok, extremely absurd for a giant, fully armoured meathead to do, but it's the best I can think of. Then again, so is launching himself by spinning around, so...

Problem isn't so much the mode of transportation but rather the frequency. When you have a melee design, the most important thing is its ability to get close and stay within that range(Apply Wolf's design to a MOBA against us, a ranged character) which is the key problem as to why the Wolf is really just a walking punching bag unless you're intentionally trying to kill yourself. When he spins towards you, you can take your time to backpedal to another corner of the room and he is rendered a non-threat until 3 or 4 seconds later when he throws his hammer which can easily be side stepped.

Give him the Manic's aggressiveness without the constant retreating and you would actually have a working baseline design. Even his minions are worth more because they can at least deal some damage with their Ignis if you stay in their range.