New combo system = useless melee in lategame

[Otakuwolf]

One of the reasons which make melee lategame viable right now is the fact that the combo meter increases your melee damage exponentially and give it some kind of scaling.

By having the combo meter only apply to heavy attacks, this concept will fly out the window and make melee (and melee built warframes) completely pointless past a certain point in the game.

Make the combo meter matter also in normal attacks, let it be manageable so IF I WANT i can spend a portion of it for a heavy attack, don't make it a purely heavy attack mechanic, because that way it gets pointless to build up a meter for ONE heavy attack that may or may not deliver the desired result.

[DarkRuler2500]

Might be intentional... all stuff that DE did recently somewhat negatively affected late-game scaling. I am still slightly optimistic but i fear that DE doesnt want us to bother with late-game stuff because then they don't have to bother with damage and armor scaling and scaling rewards.

[LSG501]

Obviously we'll need to wait and see on release but honestly I'd say there's more issue going to come from things like bloodrush and condition overload (even with buffed values) being changed to just 3 stacks than the melee multiplier considering DE have said they're buffing base damage to compensate.   Throw in the maiming strike (luckily I didn't use this) no longer adding crit and just being percentage of base now and there's going to be a fair bit of change. 

It does feel like this is more of a nerf for 'end gamers' than for newbies any way you look at it though and as a side effect it removes the need for DE to actually do anything that 'end gamers' have been calling for. 

 

[Zebiko]

Can we wait until we get the update first? So much is speculation right now.

[Andele3025]

28 minutes ago, DarkRuler2500 said:

Might be intentional... all stuff that DE did recently somewhat negatively affected late-game scaling. I am still slightly optimistic but i fear that DE doesnt want us to bother with late-game stuff because then they don't have to bother with damage and armor scaling and scaling rewards.

Or it might be a sign (WITH HEAVY OPTIMISM) that scaling will (hopefully) get reworked with a numbers squish (typical frame ehp being in the 2-8k range, recent massive power creeps have brought damage from high 40k~low 50k to the 80~90k range and enemy hp can hit the low millions around level 50~).

Edited October 20, 2019 by Andele3025

[Uhkretor]

18 minutes ago, Zebiko said:

Can we wait until we get the update first? So much is speculation right now.

^ this ^

 

No point in speculating about a speculation, until it goes live.

[Avienas]

49 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Obviously we'll need to wait and see on release but honestly I'd say there's more issue going to come from things like bloodrush and condition overload (even with buffed values) being changed to just 3 stacks than the melee multiplier considering DE have said they're buffing base damage to compensate.   Throw in the maiming strike (luckily I didn't use this) no longer adding crit and just being percentage of base now and there's going to be a fair bit of change. 

It does feel like this is more of a nerf for 'end gamers' than for newbies any way you look at it though and as a side effect it removes the need for DE to actually do anything that 'end gamers' have been calling for. 

 

Welp, as plenty have pointed in this thread at the moment, griping before the numbers are out is just head-less chicken`ery. Plus very sure there are still plenty of ways to make maiming strike/blood rush to still thrive (*cough* Sacrifical steel people???), Plus again they are basically limiting but `buffing each stack` on C.O. plus buffing all melee weapons across the board in terms of raw damage, Its technically a over`all buffs since you can still strip enemy armor and still do large amounts of damage, with only the more extreme cases being where the argument can lie at.

I mean if your part of those crazy cluckers who get off on only doing content with enemies at level 80+ and want to smash ones in the 200s preferably, then i GUESS its a nerf, but do people really have an excuse to be deep diving enemies that long for loot? Maybe when its just wrapping up your 12th or so rotation on a endless mission, but starting off at that point and make it last for 20 or more minutes is just kind of nutty.

Anyway, if Maiming strike does not get a scaling stack cap, its still possible that it could turn into a more ridiculous machine then what +90% additive crit can do, especially for people who ACTUALLY spec`d for a blood rush build and did not just pull the generic, hybrid build with C.O. & B.R.

[Stonehenge]

il y a une heure, Otakuwolf a dit :

One of the reasons which make melee lategame viable right now is the fact that the combo meter increases your melee damage exponentially and give it some kind of scaling.

By having the combo meter only apply to heavy attacks, this concept will fly out the window and make melee (and melee built warframes) completely pointless past a certain point in the game.

Make the combo meter matter also in normal attacks, let it be manageable so IF I WANT i can spend a portion of it for a heavy attack, don't make it a purely heavy attack mechanic, because that way it gets pointless to build up a meter for ONE heavy attack that may or may not deliver the desired result.

As someone said before, all this is pure speculation, since the thing is not even out yet. You didnt test it, you didnt give it a single shot.

It takes a lot of nerve to write such statements before anything is out , but hey, i should not be surprised.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Stonehenge

[LSG501]

24 minutes ago, Avienas said:

Welp, as plenty have pointed in this thread at the moment, griping before the numbers are out is just head-less chicken`ery. Plus very sure there are still plenty of ways to make maiming strike/blood rush to still thrive (*cough* Sacrifical steel people???), Plus again they are basically limiting but `buffing each stack` on C.O. plus buffing all melee weapons across the board in terms of raw damage, Its technically a over`all buffs since you can still strip enemy armor and still do large amounts of damage, with only the more extreme cases being where the argument can lie at.

I mean if your part of those crazy cluckers who get off on only doing content with enemies at level 80+ and want to smash ones in the 200s preferably, then i GUESS its a nerf, but do people really have an excuse to be deep diving enemies that long for loot? Maybe when its just wrapping up your 12th or so rotation on a endless mission, but starting off at that point and make it last for 20 or more minutes is just kind of nutty.

Anyway, if Maiming strike does not get a scaling stack cap, its still possible that it could turn into a more ridiculous machine then what +90% additive crit can do, especially for people who ACTUALLY spec`d for a blood rush build and did not just pull the generic, hybrid build with C.O. & B.R.

Obviously like I said in my post we haven't tried it, but we can speculate pretty easily how the changes will work considering how simple the game melee mechanics are.  (we've usually been pretty accurate with most changes by DE in the past)

It's not just about the actual percentages being buffed to compensate, as some have pointed out in the main thread it's also about how weapons which currently aren't really suited to condition overload will now become viable (or part of the meta) due to the capped stacks, while current weapons that are only good because of synergising with condition overload are going to be hit hardest due to the cap of 3 stacks..

Buffing a number (and lets be honest they're not going to make it that much higher than it is now) isn't going to change the fact that we're losing 'stacks' on weapons which are made strong because of the way they can synergise status effects with the current CO, some CO weapons can proc 6+ stacks so you lose 180+% (simple maths for ease) of the damage, unless they're going to double the percentage it will make them weaker.  But then we get situation I said about above where the change could make the already strong weapons stronger meaning a net 'nerf' to the viability of what is a current CO status weapon. It's why many are saying they'd prefer the current CO just gets a reduced buff percentage rather than the 3 stack cap.  Not to mention many people have built up entire builds around processing status on enemies which are now going to go to waste. 

Maiming strike actually made low crit chance weapons 'crit viable' because it was additive, the issue wasn't so much the additive part but the stacking it did with it and while I'm not really going to miss this because I can't say any of my builds used it I have this feeling that maiming strike is the 'sacrificial lamb' in the rework purely because people have been shouting the loudest to nerf maiming strike for a LONG time due to it's use in spin to win (which was the issue, especially with macro's, not so much maiming strike)...

[Avienas]

1 hour ago, LSG501 said:

 

It's not just about the actual percentages being buffed to compensate, as some have pointed out in the main thread it's also about how weapons which currently aren't really suited to condition overload will now become viable (or part of the meta) due to the capped stacks, while current weapons that are only good because of synergising with condition overload are going to be hit hardest due to the cap of 3 stacks..

Thats the thing, Numbers aren`t present, but if D.E. is basing the damage buffs on C.O. based on people doing 5-6 status effects as a norm, we can guess-timate for now it could be between a +15%~+45% value increase per stack or basically between +75% to +105% per stack for a generous guess-timate. Which basically means if its +30% extra per stack, then that means people will achieve the value of 3 stacks in the value of 2 stacks and the new 3 stacks should reach about 270%, the value of what was originally 4.5 stacks. Plus correct me if i am wrong: Is it possible for a melee weapon, except gunblade shots, to apply more then 1 status effect per melee attack, that does not lead into some multi`hit shenigan, that is usually part of a mid-late combo? Namely the first 3 melee attack actions to be more specific?

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Buffing a number (and lets be honest they're not going to make it that much higher than it is now) isn't going to change the fact that we're losing 'stacks' on weapons which are made strong because of the way they can synergise status effects with the current CO, some CO weapons can proc 6+ stacks so you lose 180+% (simple maths for ease) of the damage, unless they're going to double the percentage it will make them weaker.  But then we get situation I said about above where the change could make the already strong weapons stronger meaning a net 'nerf' to the viability of what is a current CO status weapon. It's why many are saying they'd prefer the current CO just gets a reduced buff percentage rather than the 3 stack cap.  Not to mention many people have built up entire builds around processing status on enemies which are now going to go to waste. 

Yeah that`s the thing, that is common in games that usually involves competitive elements or loads of customization, META WILL SHIFT, as simple as just a small % adjustment on one particular action for a character/class/frame, be glad D.E. is not doing the MOBA approach to warframe by basically shuffling the stats on a monthly basis, which makes it insanely impossible for people to stick with what they want and not have a flucating potential because the company in charge of the game keeps wanting to up/down values on a character constantly even if they are perfectly balanced, but because EVERYONE uses it, likely leads to them adjusting based on popularity. Sure warframe ain`t competitive, but its certainly following the traits of one by always releasing new warframes and leaving plenty of older ones not getting much attention to QoLs and hype it up when some get long-overdue improvements

Never the less, its only when people are specifically sacrificing weapon options and running some low-damage but high hitting weapon to pull some Byakugan, 64-whats-it triagram palm strike spam to just mass shut down a single target, yet they had 3 or 5 more of them slapping that person in the back constantly. That i can see the logic of why people want to COMPLAIN about losing their ability to use a secondary to setup a thing, yet they can`t just have a grenade to apply all of it instead so they can just kill the enemy and get on with it.

Oh and if you have to apply 4 or more status effects to crush a GRUNT of a enemy, very sure your running a build more for dealing with a mini-boss enemy, not a bunch of grunts, which warframe sorely lacks proper simple mini-boss type enemies that make people want to plague them with as many status effects as possible to utterly tear into them, Kingdom Hearts Style. Sure, Kuva Liches are probably going to give us that option, but they could easily have the ability to constantly disengage from us or maybe even self purge its status effects 

Quote

Maiming strike actually made low crit chance weapons 'crit viable' because it was additive, the issue wasn't so much the additive part but the stacking it did with it and while I'm not really going to miss this because I can't say any of my builds used it I have this feeling that maiming strike is the 'sacrificial lamb' in the rework purely because people have been shouting the loudest to nerf maiming strike for a LONG time due to it's use in spin to win (which was the issue, especially with macro's, not so much maiming strike)...

Again, i can agree i was not familiar that maiming strike stacked with blood-rush by acting in the same was as a Crit chance increasing mod, instead of working more along the lines of a Adarza Kavat`s cats eye buff. Still, it was kind of obvious it would get some kind of change because:

Why effectively create a way to use weapons intended for status focus builds, to be used as a crit weapon? You cant use the NUKOR argument here because d.e. was likely lazy on alot of older weapon designs and thought it would be a NEAT-O idea to give some weapons with non-existent crit chance, rather chunky crit damage, when it should of instead went to things to benefit what the weapon was about, aka status procing-abuse-age.

I mean the fact i do not recall we have anything like a status CRITICAL, where the effects of a status proc can get greatly amplified, except maybe how slash works, kind of kills part of the logic to be going against the simple logic to a weapon as intended and try to use every weapon as both a status stick AND a critical stick.

Either way, Maiming strike was not the first sacrifical lamb, RANGE was when they gutted the ability for people to bypass walls and kill anything like some phantom helicopter who gives zero care to physics when normally you would get dazed for slamming a long reaching weapon in a solid chunky object that is firmly bolted to the ground. Either way, Range was still part of the issue because it tied into mobility, which is what the game is all about, being as mobile as heck gremlin who just mauls things and quickly jumps to the next target. Like a Hearthstone Face-Hunter who would not be aiming to play the game but just quickly get it over with and keep bouncing to the next `bounce pad` in record time.

If we never had mods like Condition overload & maiming strike & Blood rush, then i am sure these complaints would not be as existent, since its ultimately tied to them being perpetual meta, just as much as all the main-stay damage weapon mods that perma-lock the bench loadouts, leaving less room for interesting builds that serve more of a purpose, then just be gyro-copter-deathparade-manbearpig.

 

Small P.S. Honestly when you remember what HEAVY ATTACKS are all about, dealing large amounts of damage with a single detonating wind up, this basically replaces the need to even have things like Condition Overload, because not only will it likely stack with everything on the bench, it will have another chunkier, multiplier, that will likely also get modified by other damage sources and its so called `slow wind up`, will also likely get affected by attack speed   (Berserker/Primed Fury+Certain Attack speed increasing warframe/arcanes people???) to where you likely will have almost the same speed as before, but now you can just drop a huge smash, have condition overload stacked up and just utterly destroy a group of enemies, especially if we start having `splash hits` on heavy attacks which could let us probably do a hildryn sized nuke on our melee combos.

Throw in the fact we will have plenty of means to drastically give bursts of combo count early and speed up gain rate after the update, this means ones might even be able to stop specing for C.O. builds and still achieve similar results with heavy attacks, maybe even more depending on gain rates, heavy attack multipliers and `instant providance bonuses`. Might even have naramon get a buff eventually to let us capitalize on this kind of system to boot.

 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Avienas

[LSG501]

7 minutes ago, Avienas said:

snip

 

Status effects don't just need to come from the melee, it's status effects affecting the enemy.... I can run with say hildryn and I can get an instant 1 status effect by just running one ability all the time, other frames can do the same, we've got sentinel weapons, some of which proc elemental damage 100% of the time.  So that's 2 of the 3 status effects without any effort whatsoever...

It's fine for the meta to shift (tbh we shouldn't even have a meta in a PvE) but making all the existing options 'weaker' in the process of a rework, which also then wastes all our time spent on builds isn't really a good idea either... besides it still doesn't seem like they're fixing the mods we've been moaning about needing fixing for ages either (things like just status mod being weaker than status/elemental for example, cold being a different polarity to the rest etc) so the odds are we'll still end up with very similar builds on pretty much every weapon, hell with the changes it might end up that we have the exact same build on every weapon with CO and BR and just run something like a sentinel that can add the 3 status effects to enemies....

Yes the builds weren't needed for low tier enemies but I'm sort of the of the view that when you 'balance' things you bring things up not nerf stuff.

Maiming strike could have been fixed really easily by just giving it a one time buff instead of it working multiple times, still allows a weapon to be crit viable but doesn't have the massive scaling it had... but nope DE just turned it into a percentage one.

As to the why create a way to make a crit weapon on status weapon... because in some cases a weapon wasn't really suited to either crit OR status options, scoliac for example (as much as I hate whips) was 15% status chance and 5% crit chance, yes you can get an ok level of status but it isn't really suited to either.

Range change, tbh that felt like DE just being lazy and not fixing the real issues with spin to win, it also introduced no end of issues with the maps if you're being objective. 

To be fair the reason we have certain meta's is because of the need to counter enemy scaling and even now DE have only given a lukewarm response to actually doing anything about the real issue.

I do actually have some weird builds in my melee because I don't necessarily follow the meta but I'm also not looking forward to having to go through all my weapons to see how they work with the changes, there's no way I'll be able to go through them all in the time frame that DE are likely to give us and I'm already bored of the monotony called levelling things (you get that way after a while)  so having to 'fix' builds is going to be anything but fun for me even with the 'booster' (they should have removed the need to level up after a forma for a few weeks imo).  There's still no real info on the compensation either.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

5 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Or it might be a sign (WITH HEAVY OPTIMISM) that scaling will (hopefully) get reworked with a numbers squish (typical frame ehp being in the 2-8k range, recent massive power creeps have brought damage from high 40k~low 50k to the 80~90k range and enemy hp can hit the low millions around level 50~).

Then how come I can 1 shot up to level 80 with a sniper that does less then 200k?

[Otakuwolf]

4 hours ago, Stonehenge said:

As someone said before, all this is pure speculation, since the thing is not even out yet. You didnt test it, you didnt give it a single shot.

It takes a lot of nerve to write such statements before anything is out , but hey, i should not be surprised.

Yeah, how dare I share my thoughts about a videogame that does not influence my own or anybody else's life, right ?

You also didn't test it, so it actually takes much more real nerve to call out somebody in such an entitled manner just for expressing a concern/opinion.

[Andele3025]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

Then how come I can 1 shot up to level 80 with a sniper that does less then 200k?

Weak enemy, sniper combo, elemental bonus, headshot bonus, frame buffs... oh and the fact that its a damn sniper whos burst damage is much higher than its DPS (except for the vectis, most of which surprisingly float around the 50k dps mark by averaging their hits per combo requirement with the obvious exception of the recent rubico P).

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

19 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Weak enemy, sniper combo, elemental bonus, headshot bonus, frame buffs... oh and the fact that its a damn sniper whos burst damage is much higher than its DPS (except for the vectis, most of which surprisingly float around the 50k dps mark by averaging their hits per combo requirement with the obvious exception of the recent rubico P).

No combo, and the quote was about 1m hp at level 50 when I'm doing less then 200k...

Edited October 20, 2019 by (PS4)Spider_Enigma

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

6 hours ago, Zebiko said:

Can we wait until we get the update first? So much is speculation right now.

Going through a combo chain on a small group of enemies (can't wait for multi-hit weapon combos to become the new meta, so it can get nerfed too lol) is much slower than blitzing past with a slide crit polearm, and the slide attack is also keeping you mobile, making it easier to avoid getting shot.  You don't have to wait for the update to hit to see that, especially since they showed the combos on stream, taking forever to kill a spread out pack of low level enemies, despite all of them being killed in just 1-3 hits.  Without even playing it you can see that it is inherently slower, and also more likely to get you killed, since you won't be as mobile.  Can't look cool and flashy when you're sucking down bombard rockets.

[Andele3025]

52 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

No combo, and the quote was about 1m hp at level 50 when I'm doing less then 200k...

My fault for assuming people would understand that in a case about extreme examples and scaling one would go with a extreme example (and to understand what ehp is).
However point still stands by going down from the extremes to generic/common heavy units. Unless you want to argue semantics over "oh you didnt specify its about ancient protted eximus n heavy grineer unit in relic runs which happens reasonably often so im right".

Returning to the point tho, here lets take the tusk napalms from plains. They hit 100k ehp (aka 4-6 body shots from a regular vectis assuming no slash and going corrosive).
Is the fact that the equivalent heavy unit on the infested side dies to 1 body shot and that its circa 13-14 times the ehp most frames that arent graced with "heavy defense buffs"  absurd? Or that a kitgun or gram prime can in a solid % of cases oneshot it when prior "top 10" didnt without relying on slash procs?

[xxswatelitexx]

8 hours ago, Zebiko said:

Can we wait until we get the update first? So much is speculation right now.

NO! We need to make wildly out of this world assumptions that might not even be remotely accurate!
Now take your reasonably well thought out argument some where else!

This area is reserved for hyperboles and exaggerations and tin foil hats!

 

[Raikh]

May I ask what exactly qualifies as lategame? Because I can see that varying wildly depending on which kind of player you ask.

Fro one lategame enemies might be in the 100-200 range where basically all kinds of reward structures cap out,as extensive endurance runs are not really providing value.

And there you absolutely can deal with stuff without CO or a a nerfed CO easily and don't need a higher combo multiplier than what we get buffed by baseline. As an exmaple Skana saw a ~240% increase in base damage on the Devstream, which roughly equals a 3.5x multiplier right now.

If we are talking long endruance runs with mobs at like 500+, yeah thats a really hard hit for melee. However I don't really see it being that relevant.

The entire damage system of Warframe, be it players or Enemies is pretty busted and if we want to get a decent endgame experience, then those things have to be sorted out and the CO and combo changes go into the right direction. For those seeking challenge changes need to happen on the enemy side, too, so we can get a relevant, challenging playing field that is not onehsot and being oneshot by silly numbers after sitting in the same mission for hours. And for Warframe its always been one step at a time in that regard.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Raikh

[Klokwerkaos]

I have not tried this yet, so I'm trying to remain optimistic but I do have a sincere concern about the loss of combo counter damage multiplier and possible range nerfs to large melee.

unless damage is getting an overall 3X buff (the current reasonable max for combo buff, you can get much higher with naramon, but that's a whole different thing, which is likely to need touching) and it may if the skana dev build is indicative of all weapons (which it probably isn't)... then enemy armor scaling is going to more or less make melee no longer a viable option to use in long arbitrations.  this is because arbitrations require melee nuking to really do anything after the 60 min mark for a pug, which will discourage pug play and only premades will have the option of going this long or longer due to enemy armor scaling.  

effectively it will kill this portion of the game from a pug standpoint which is currently one that I find more enjoyable as the vet with 5.7k+ hours.

once you get to about the 45 min mark enemy armor starts getting dumb to deal with and saryn is only so tanky and arb drones effectively mess up her spores to strip armor.  essentially this also kills frame choice, because with proper melee investment, all frames are viable for arbs right now... if they aren't after this, you'll know why.

this, on it's face, looks a lot like "sorry, get out" and forces everyone into using magus lockdown as the only viable alternative at that level, which is still very poor at armored units like grineer.

I felt the recent arbitration changes were all very good, but this just seems to revert it back to the old state where people are going to return to only playing certain ones again and if we learned anything from eidolons its that you don't want  to engineer a game mode with one clearly superior meta to force players into since it robs them of choice and the ability to play whatever frame they like... this may be on track to do the same thing (like how arbs before were just excav).  And to be honest... the recent arbitrations changes... that's the first time as a vet that I've felt "rewarded" for playing at my best and min/maxing my gear in a very very long time... like, since poe came out and raids were killed.

the whole point of the combo counter is that as enemies get tougher (ie, you are no longer one shotting them), you start dealing more damage comparatively (because they remain on the screen longer and thus your combo counter fills up quicker).  right now this system works for the player.  the future system, while I haven't tried it, seems to work against the player in these modes.  

the only viable solution I can see here is that armor scaling needs to be fixed hasta pronto to compensate for this, otherwise we're going to basically be forced out of these missions because while all the fancy new animations are nice and engaging, they are also time consuming which means less speed murder, and more exposure to enemy attacks that do significantly larger amounts of damage at higher levels.

the other major concern is that range to long weapons get a significant nerf.  right now this is the only thing that makes melee worth using, and further, it's the only thing that keeps saryn in check in that people can outdamage saryn with melee regardless of what frame they have if they invest in melee properly.  slight nerfs to long range and massive buffs to short would be ideal, but killing long range means saryn becomes mandatory for all arbs with any armor, and she's too squishy to go the distance, which will also call for even more saryn nerfs and eventually long arbs becoming a thing of the past.  since these are on a 1 hour cooldown, that effectively means If vets go to 45, we spend 15 minutes out of every hour twiddling our thumbs, which kind of sucks.

If my prediction is correct, arbitration will start seeing much less engagement and a lot of your endgame folk retention will start to suffer drastically (as this is the only place we really have to go to atm because there is no other content for us other than endurance runs in arbs) unless this armor scaling gets addressed nearly immediately.  Overall this seems to be, on it's face, a moderate buff to new players and a massive nerf to older players if it works the way I think it will.  I agree that closing the gap some is good, but this is at the cost of the only game mode we have to play which is limited to a 1 hour rotation (meaning if you do 20 min of it and leave, you now have 40 minutes before you can play again for anything meaningful) and that #feelsbadman.  

I understand kuva liches are meant to be a form of entertainment for long term players, but from the looks of it, there is a static pool of mr available, and once we get the weapons we want (and rest assured, we will tear through this at least 10x faster than the average player) and collect the mr, this becomes fundamentally dead content to us and doesn't have replay value because we will have already earned the available rewards that aren't tradeable for plat as there is no listed evergreen rewards mentioned to date associated with them (though I will say I am excited to get a 30+ level kohm with innate elemental on it... that's gonna be broke AF since kohm is already busted).

I understand the desired goal is better engagement, but if you want that, we NEED enemy scaling addressed like... with that patch to prevent massive salt storms, otherwise forecast looks very grim.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[LSG501]

9 hours ago, Raikh said:

May I ask what exactly qualifies as lategame? Because I can see that varying wildly depending on which kind of player you ask.

Fro one lategame enemies might be in the 100-200 range where basically all kinds of reward structures cap out,as extensive endurance runs are not really providing value.

And there you absolutely can deal with stuff without CO or a a nerfed CO easily and don't need a higher combo multiplier than what we get buffed by baseline. As an exmaple Skana saw a ~240% increase in base damage on the Devstream, which roughly equals a 3.5x multiplier right now.

If we are talking long endruance runs with mobs at like 500+, yeah thats a really hard hit for melee. However I don't really see it being that relevant.

The entire damage system of Warframe, be it players or Enemies is pretty busted and if we want to get a decent endgame experience, then those things have to be sorted out and the CO and combo changes go into the right direction. For those seeking challenge changes need to happen on the enemy side, too, so we can get a relevant, challenging playing field that is not onehsot and being oneshot by silly numbers after sitting in the same mission for hours. And for Warframe its always been one step at a time in that regard.

That's the thing 'end gamers' have been asking for quicker access to harder enemies because the enemies we have access to are basically too easy (level 100 sorties are anything but hard etc), DE said something about harder options coming but what DE have done in this rework seems to be the opposite of what most end gamers have been wanting.... they wanted quicker access to harder enemies so they could use their weapons to their full potential, instead it seems DE is removing a lot of the scaling (not just the multiplier) of these weapons so they're ultimately going to be weaker in late game, which in turn means DE can basically push endgame content under the carpet again. 

I can't say I'm looking forward to the 'grind' to fix weapons I like and I have issues with some of the mod changes but it doesn't make any difference what issues we have this is coming whether we like it or not.  

I agree with your bit about kuva liches, they look like they'll get 'boring' pretty quickly to me too.. I'm already at the 'mr burnout' point so farming weapons just for a few more mr points and a minor buff really isn't going to keep me interested for long in all honesty.

[Raikh]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb LSG501:

That's the thing 'end gamers' have been asking for quicker access to harder enemies because the enemies we have access to are basically too easy (level 100 sorties are anything but hard etc), DE said something about harder options coming but what DE have done in this rework seems to be the opposite of what most end gamers have been wanting.... they wanted quicker access to harder enemies so they could use their weapons to their full potential, instead it seems DE is removing a lot of the scaling (not just the multiplier) of these weapons so they're ultimately going to be weaker in late game, which in turn means DE can basically push endgame content under the carpet again. 

It depends very much on what their goal is. Sure if teh yjust cut ooff Player sclaing and continue to stuff new content at starchart difficulty and don't touch enemy scaling its a pretty bad change as its just limiting possiblities without improving any other aspect of the game.

What I hope is that the overall numbers problem is atleast slowly being adressed. Just as CO is broken, so is enemy armor scaling. Armor sclaing with level shouldnt be a thing at all from a mathematical viewpoint, make armor fixed per enemy, maybe fixed increases at level thresholds to sort of mark them as elite enemies and then adjust health scaling to not them make them absolute push-overs.

And similarly player sclaing needs to be adressed. Both sides need to be sorted out to even be able to create a playing field for proper endgame.

Right now, DE essentially can't even do proper endgame, because evrything will jsut be onehsot regardless. Sure tehy cna jsut make Planet X where everytihng starts at level 500 and there are players knowing how to dela with this. But its by no means good gameplay or real endgame because the game is compeltely breaking down at that point, you can't survive damage by nomral means, you can't kill armored enemies by normal means, only very few strategies and frames/weapons are remotely usable and its just not a good experience as real content. There will always people pushing beyond the intentional and that will always be the case as lognas there are infintely modes. Just making that level of power accessible is however not creating an actual endgame.

It is an assumnption that a huge game rebalancing is happening step by step that will lead to endgame where we can use our gear to the fullest and where highly skilled and invested players can still push beyond but to even enable this drastic nerfs and re-adjustments to highly or infintely scaling game mechanics are inevitable.

I just hope I'm not being too optimistic here and actual number judgements are for the patch release, since we don't even know where exactly we are at what melee is concerned for the present game.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Raikh

[Klokwerkaos]

8 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Yeah I can't say I'm looking forward to the 'grind' to fix weapons I like and I have issues with some of the mod changes but it doesn't make any difference what issues we have this is coming whether we like it or not.  

I agree with your bit about kuva liches, they look like they'll get 'boring' pretty quickly to me too.. I'm already at the 'mr burnout' point so farming weapons just for a few more mr points and a minor buff really isn't going to keep me interested for long in all honesty.

what kills me is that this isn't sustainable and everyone knows it because new players always (if they stick around) become older players... 

[(PSN)Onder6099]

We will probably get what we are asked for. So many players wrote about how OP we are or Enemies are weak, me included, so DE made decision to change it, but from opposite side. The rework is, imho, direct hit to Solo players spending tons hours in Endurance runs alone while they should play Co-Op. 

[Xzorn]

What's the point in scaling damage when everything you'll prolly do in melee will end up with players chasing enemies across the map knocking them into the air and ragdoll them across the room. For some reason DE has gone mad with the concept of juggling and knocking enemies around and I don't recall anyone wanting such a thing.

The idea DE is targeting late game scaling is funny though.

Melee stops working unless you're playing an Invis frame. You simply take too much damage. Very few frames can ever make use of current melee DPS in the first place and they're not using damage buffs. It's a problem that solves itself. Watch any 3h+ run. Most aren't using melee because staying alive is the priority; not doing damage.