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Otakuwolf

New combo system = useless melee in lategame

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7 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

what kills me is that this isn't sustainable and everyone knows it because new players always (if they stick around) become older players... 

Unfortunately it's been shown pretty clearly in most streams that very few of the devteam, especially steve (if you ever watched his twitch streams playing early content you'll understand) and scott (does he even play outside of testing at work...), are not what you could call 'end gamers'... considering how much steve and scott are the main people directing the game it probably doesn't help.

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1 minute ago, LSG501 said:

Unfortunately it's been shown pretty clearly in most streams that very few of the devteam, especially steve (if you ever watched his twitch streams playing early content you'll understand) and scott (does he even play outside of testing at work...), are not what you could call 'end gamers'... considering how much steve and scott are the main people directing the game it probably doesn't help.

I mean that's pure speculation,  I wouldn't go down that road and instead would just point to how the actions towards making all content cater to newbies so everyone can enjoy it, even stuff supposedly designed for endgame min maxers just ends up making it trash, and that this has been going on since about poe/death of raids.

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8 hours ago, Raikh said:

Right now, DE essentially can't even do proper endgame, because evrything will jsut be onehsot regardless. Sure tehy cna jsut make Planet X where everytihng starts at level 500 and there are players knowing how to dela with this. But its by no means good gameplay or real endgame because the game is compeltely breaking down at that point, you can't survive damage by nomral means, you can't kill armored enemies by normal means, only very few strategies and frames/weapons are remotely usable and its just not a good experience as real content. There will always people pushing beyond the intentional and that will always be the case as lognas there are infintely modes. Just making that level of power accessible is however not creating an actual endgame.

To be fair this game has so much stuff that has issues purely because of one part being scaling and one part being a fixed number. 

Enemies have scaling armour/health (and damage) etc yet warframe armour/health doesn't and while that is an easy way to make harder enemies, scaling the damage the way they do when we don't get any scaling health/armour is part of what makes it unbalanced. 

Abilities have the same issue, we constantly complain some abilities have no late game (some even struggle at sortie level) and in most cases they're ones that don't have any scaling... so abilities also have a scaling versus fixed number issue.  It's almost like DE are trying to run 2 concepts of the same game at the same time and well that's never going to work. 

Now don't get me wrong I don't think we should be able to one shot all the way up to end game but at the same time DE needs to be consistent in their approach to every aspect of the game before we'll ever get to a 'balanced' state. 

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4 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I mean that's pure speculation,  I wouldn't go down that road and instead would just point to how the actions towards making all content cater to newbies so everyone can enjoy it, even stuff supposedly designed for endgame min maxers just ends up making it trash, and that this has been going on since about poe/death of raids.

Well, I watched steve streaming a new account and as much as I'd like to think he was playing to the camera I honestly can't say I got that feeling. 

The push towards newbies is pretty easily explained, they're the 'cash cows' who want instant gratification... isn't grendel being stuck in arbitrations, newbies can't even get there...

Unfortunately ever since DE sold part of the company to that Chinese company they've been pushing towards selling plat etc and from what I've seen this is something that is very common with that company.  While I wouldn't want DE not to make profits I do wonder if this 'push for profit' (from newbies) is actually hurting the overall gaming experience for players, especially long term ones.

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Being honest it's probably going to fail ridiculously and by the end of November they'll have been forced to strip out over a year worth of hard work because they failed to consider realities that people will have to be dealing with in every game session. 

Yeah yeah sure I'll be optimistic I'll load into pc as soon as it drops and check it out even though console has become my primary account. But lets be honest here. They're putting this out because they know people are sick of waiting.

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2 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Well, I watched steve streaming a new account and as much as I'd like to think he was playing to the camera I honestly can't say I got that feeling. 

The push towards newbies is pretty easily explained, they're the 'cash cows' who want instant gratification... isn't grendel being stuck in arbitrations, newbies can't even get there...

Unfortunately ever since DE sold part of the company to that Chinese company they've been pushing towards selling plat etc and from what I've seen this is something that is very common with that company.  While I wouldn't want DE not to make profits I do wonder if this 'push for profit' (from newbies) is actually hurting the overall gaming experience for players, especially long term ones.

I mean I don't disagree with your assessment, I just would rather use evidence over inference, since the latter is subjective.

 

I would indeed say it has been hurting the game much more than helping imho.

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3 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Abilities have the same issue, we constantly complain some abilities have no late game (some even struggle at sortie level) and in most cases they're ones that don't have any scaling... so abilities also have a scaling versus fixed number issue.  It's almost like DE are trying to run 2 concepts of the same game at the same time and well that's never going to work.

 

You're neglecting the ridiculous manner in which buffs and debuff stack though. I drop an Ancient Healer and I suddenly have x10 eHP.

Personally I've always been fine with Abilities not doing direct damage at high levels long as they served a secondary purpose. Weapons have always been the best source of scaling damage in the game and given it's a 3rd person shooter that feels right to me. It's when abilities don't have a secondary function like Excal's Javs there's a problem.

I do agree though the Devs don't seem play on the high end much if at all. DE should really have a team of elitists to help balance things out.

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17 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

You're neglecting the ridiculous manner in which buffs and debuff stack though. I drop an Ancient Healer and I suddenly have x10 eHP.

Personally I've always been fine with Abilities not doing direct damage at high levels long as they served a secondary purpose. Weapons have always been the best source of scaling damage in the game and given it's a 3rd person shooter that feels right to me. It's when abilities don't have a secondary function like Excal's Javs there's a problem.

I do agree though the Devs don't seem play on the high end much if at all. DE should really have a team of elitists to help balance things out.

They should, and we've been trying to for years... they just don't listen.

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il y a 15 minutes, Klokwerkaos a dit :

They should, and we've been trying to for years... they just don't listen.

Yeah, i wonder why tbh. 

I can understand polarising suggestion like exclusive ebdgame content drops, but simple stuff like level sliders, spawn rate sliders, the ability to always access a desirable endless fissure type etc sound like the most pedestrian and universally good suggestions and they still get completely ignored. 

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Magic, so, we're now ignoring the basic instruction of 'play it first and then provide feedback' that they asked for, because, and let me be clear:

It's less than a week to the update, how do you expect one badly worded Forum thread to change their minds after two entire years of working on this change?!

'Oh thank you, OtakuWolf, you strong-minded and not at all whiny player, we have seen the error of our ways and we're now not going to implement this system we've been testing for the last six months and promised our player base that we would finish for the last two years!' .... That's right...

Yeesh...

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The combo system is a terrible mechanic that papers over the fact that melee base damage is insufficient, and that in practice tends to quickly plateau to a 3-3.5x damage multiplier. I would rather we rebalanced melee weapon base damage to not need charging up, or overpowered niche mods to be good, which DE seems to be doing, and considering that sort of change is in effect, I wouldn't be so quick to proclaim the death of late-game melee combat.

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1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Magic, so, we're now ignoring the basic instruction of 'play it first and then provide feedback' that they asked for, because, and let me be clear:

It's less than a week to the update, how do you expect one badly worded Forum thread to change their minds after two entire years of working on this change?!

 

They pretty much said they are no longer listening to feedback from a development standpoint and kinda proven they haven't been for a while.

"We have a vision this year for the team and a lot of players for years have been giving us feedback on what they think warframe is, should be, ect"

Time stamped for reference:

Spoiler

 

 

The first and most horrible part showing they've not been listening this entire time is players don't get bored / burned out because of lack of difficulty. They get bored / burned out because we don't have easy access to that difficulty and talking about unified is preposterous as this community has always been unified in asking for more challenging and/or difficult content for the game without spending hours in an unrewarding mission.

The only variance to this is some players want it some days and not others which is why you put that difficulty in the hands of the players so they can choose. Since DE has never actually tried to make the game difficult that's where disparity begins because players have no reference to work from.

In the end this community they no longer listen to are the creators to some of the most long lasting content in Warframe. We asked for Defense to go longer which gave birth to Survival and endless missions thus the Void, we asked for Raid and tested them for DE. Meanwhile the content of DE's vision flops in a month.

At any rate you really don't have to try something to know the concepts are awful. DE has gone mad with ragdolls and now "Lift" mechanics that literally no one asked for so we chase enemies across the map instead of killing them. We might as well all just be talking to a wall.

An entire year and they add one mission type and tileset rework. No wonder the game is in decline.

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2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

You're neglecting the ridiculous manner in which buffs and debuff stack though. I drop an Ancient Healer and I suddenly have x10 eHP.

Personally I've always been fine with Abilities not doing direct damage at high levels long as they served a secondary purpose. Weapons have always been the best source of scaling damage in the game and given it's a 3rd person shooter that feels right to me. It's when abilities don't have a secondary function like Excal's Javs there's a problem.

I do agree though the Devs don't seem play on the high end much if at all. DE should really have a team of elitists to help balance things out.

I think you misunderstand my issue with abilities a little.  It's not about fall off of abilities at high level it's about 'how' they fall off.  Take current saryn, all her kit scales to any level of enemy, it just does less at hgiher level, take the (for ease here) existing ember where her abilities have a 'cap' due to it being non scaling, she isn't alone in this issue and even some new releases have the same issue with non scaling abilities...

As to buffs/debuffs stacking, you could argue that's a different issue again but I doubt that's going to even get looked at any time soon. 

And in reference to above post... yah sadly it's been pretty clear for a while now that DE haven't been listening to us and as a result we get content that we get 'bored' of really quickly.

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55 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

I think you misunderstand my issue with abilities a little.  It's not about fall off of abilities at high level it's about 'how' they fall off.  Take current saryn, all her kit scales to any level of enemy, it just does less at hgiher level, take the (for ease here) existing ember where her abilities have a 'cap' due to it being non scaling, she isn't alone in this issue and even some new releases have the same issue with non scaling abilities...

 

I was more just saying I'm fine settling for Damage abilities that turn to Utility. Better scaling damage is fine too long as it's not something like Octavia.

Usually I can find value in an ability even if the ability's damage is no longer valuable. Ember as the same example. Before they gave her that dumb re-cast upkeep WoF was a useful ambient CC tool in conjunction with Accelerant as an AoE stun. Together they took a lot of pressure off her while Fire Blast and Accelerant's augment + Multipliers would provide a rather large weapon damage boost. Ember became more about using her weapons than AoE blowing everything up.

Of course the weapon selection against armor was limited since the Heat bonuses would mess with Proc weight. Pure Corrosive Torrid was my usual pick.

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7 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

I was more just saying I'm fine settling for Damage abilities that turn to Utility. Better scaling damage is fine too long as it's not something like Octavia.

Usually I can find value in an ability even if the ability's damage is no longer valuable. Ember as the same example. Before they gave her that dumb re-cast upkeep WoF was a useful ambient CC tool in conjunction with Accelerant as an AoE stun. Together they took a lot of pressure off her while Fire Blast and Accelerant's augment + Multipliers would provide a rather large weapon damage boost. Ember became more about using her weapons than AoE blowing everything up.

Of course the weapon selection against armor was limited since the Heat bonuses would mess with Proc weight. Pure Corrosive Torrid was my usual pick.

Yeah I used to use a low damage firequake on ember before the rework and it made her more than viable at sortie levels (not saying she can't do it now, just less useful imo), shame they took that away the viabilty with the range nerf.

Like you say I don't mind abilities changing to be more utility instead of damage at higher levels but at the same time what I would like is some consistency, DE keeps giving some frames fixed value damage and others get scaling abilities and most of the time it just seems they pick it out of a hat which side of the coin the abilities fall....

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Oh c'mon, the only reason for people to go into >1 hour endless mission was to test their limits in exploiting game mechanics, pure flexing (as scaling reward does not exist).

If a melee rework changes these exploiting mechanics to take them down to a level in which you'll find at 1h the same difficulty you are now encountering at 3h, what's the difference? You will still flex on your limits, same challenge, just much before. It would basically lower the temporal bar for what people perceive as endgame difficulty, making a great deal in entertaining also those people that cannot dedicate more than 1h in a single gaming session.

It's a win(1) win(2) win(3)! 1) for try-hards that want to push their limits ; 2) for people demanding endgame difficulty ; 3) for those people whose eyes start to bleed after 1h of lights flickering.

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13 minutes ago, DebrisFlow said:

Oh c'mon, the only reason for people to go into >1 hour endless mission was to test their limits in exploiting game mechanics, pure flexing (as scaling reward does not exist).

It's more that the bar for any good build is lvl 300+ Solo.That's just where our performance is these days.

Groups are just impossible to challenge due to all the effects we can stack.

I did 2-3 hours runs cuz it was the only way I could find if my build was optimal. Nothing in the normal game really lets you do that. For a player who enjoys theory crafting and making builds this game has become a graveyard. I just do Sortie with no mods on and elemental resistance with pure elemental weapons cuz it doesn't matter.

Nuking Melee DPS isn't going to do anything about my Trinity getting 2 million eHP Solo or 1 mil Nidus both before Adaptation.

DE shoulda given us a level slider years ago.

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il y a 39 minutes, DebrisFlow a dit :

Oh c'mon, the only reason for people to go into >1 hour endless mission was to test their limits in exploiting game mechanics, pure flexing (as scaling reward does not exist).

If a melee rework changes these exploiting mechanics to take them down to a level in which you'll find at 1h the same difficulty you are now encountering at 3h, what's the difference? You will still flex on your limits, same challenge, just much before. It would basically lower the temporal bar for what people perceive as endgame difficulty, making a great deal in entertaining also those people that cannot dedicate more than 1h in a single gaming session.

It's a win(1) win(2) win(3)! 1) for try-hards that want to push their limits ; 2) for people demanding endgame difficulty ; 3) for those people whose eyes start to bleed after 1h of lights flickering.

The secret is that the problem never was damage, just staying alive. And that was before melee became entirely broken and pushed dps above the 1mln bar consistently. 

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5 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

Yeah, i wonder why tbh. 

I can understand polarising suggestion like exclusive ebdgame content drops, but simple stuff like level sliders, spawn rate sliders, the ability to always access a desirable endless fissure type etc sound like the most pedestrian and universally good suggestions and they still get completely ignored. 

I mean people do what they want, we don't own the company so it's not up to us.

That said even with a crew of say, 10 systems analysts that are part time that work to break the game builds as much as possible still need time to do that though.   Consider that the most broken stuff usually takes a while to invent once new products or bug changes are added.

 

I think the only reason they don't us because of Bethesda attitude... ship it and let the players fix it for free.  In this case we aren't modding it but instead reporting glitches, bugs and game breaking metas.

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7 hours ago, (PS4)jaggerwanderer said:

None of the primary or secondary weapons scale per hit or kill. They do fine in long endless missions. It's not like melee 3.0 is going to be modless weapon we swing around.

Really?  I think you should try some long endless missions with the Stug, Viper, Twin Vipers, and maybe the Kraken.  It's not like every secondary is a Pox or kitgun.

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Boy I do love the idea of going into Sorties/Arbitrations against level 80+ enemies that can melt my poor delicate warframe body in seconds while doing probably 1/5th the damage.

Or trying to juggle enemies to output damage, then watching a teammate pop their head into the room and nuke everything with one shot from their primary.

Warframe is not a character action game and I don't know why DE seems to be pushing melee towards that. It's a horde mode where high level enemies have to die quick because they will vaporize you if they touch you.

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3 hours ago, WhimsicalPacifist said:

Really?  I think you should try some long endless missions with the Stug, Viper, Twin Vipers, and maybe the Kraken.  It's not like every secondary is a Pox or kitgun.

 

How about the Nosam Mining cutter?

Z06y7Or.jpg

DE can't win the nerf battle because they keep treating symptoms instead of the problems.
They also don't know enough about the game anymore and every time the cycle goes full circle; gameplay just gets worse.

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On 2019-10-20 at 10:43 AM, Zebiko said:

Can we wait until we get the update first? So much is speculation right now.

No, you don't need the update in your hands to see how this is going to go down. I'm all for the nerf honestly, but telling people to wait to give feedback is garbage. 

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13 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

No, you don't need the update in your hands to see how this is going to go down. I'm all for the nerf honestly, but telling people to wait to give feedback is garbage. 

From experience of watching these kinds of threads in relation to the updates that come out, from The Sword Alone, to Parkour, to the Mod Slot rework, to the Relic System... all of them produce these whiny threads before it happens, and those same people are noticeably absent after the update because the changes have been, historically, massive improvements to how we play the game.

Sure, there have been specifics, where an update has caused players to say there's more grind or DE's policy of putting players on an equal footing has meant that the efforts and stockpiles from longer-running players haven't counted for anything, or the opposite where DE have assumed that we have huge stockpiles and implement something that would be prohibitively expensive without those stockpiles (only to find that most of the players that have those stockpiles haven't played in months... [cough]hema[cough])...

Updates haven't been perfect over time. But from watching them all these years? None of the feedback that comes, like this, barely a week or two before the update has ever mattered, and only a tiny proportion of it has even been slightly correct. 

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