New combo system = useless melee in lategame

[Autongnosis]

il y a 4 minutes, Birdframe_Prime a dit :

 

Updates haven't been perfect over time. But from watching them all these years? None of the feedback that comes, like this, barely a week or two before the update has ever mattered, and only a tiny proportion of it has even been slightly correct. 

The problem being that the tiny (or not so tiny in some cases) feedback that isn't mindless whining gets ignored just as much. 

We've been stuck for a full #*!%ing year with melee ragdolling enemies away from us and the answer from DE is to add more of it in the form of lifting and juggling... 

[Birdframe_Prime]

7 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

We've been stuck for a full #*!%ing year with melee ragdolling enemies away from us and the answer from DE is to add more of it in the form of lifting and juggling... 

So, you saw the Lift, which held enemies still in the air instead of rag doll, so still that we can even jump in the air and do aerial combos on them, and then the part that basic slams no longer rag doll enemies and instead stun and stagger them... and your response was ‘yep, no improvement at all over what we have now’?

You saw the return of manual weapon switch and manual block, of the stance reworks that fix the massive problems with our combo system, you saw animation cancelling, heavy attack inclusion, the ability to change one combo into another by having the game seek inputs every hit instead of after the combo ends, you even saw variable length dodge rolls... and your response is that they haven’t listened to any of our feedback?

I know full well that there can, and likely will be problems with this update.

But I’m looking at what they’re doing, the actual things they showed off, and this time? This time they listened.

And yet despite that, the OP wants to tell me that they think that less than two weeks from a major update where DE are changing a fundamental system of the game that has taken them two entire years from announcement to now, DE are going to magically change something at the core of that update? Because let me be clear; No matter whether that feedback is thought out or not, it won’t change anything whatsoever. And it certainly won’t when the feedback is ‘No, I won’t play it, I’m going to give my feedback now, because I know better.’

After the update? Yes. That’s when they put up the Megathread and all feedback there is actually read. (Trust me, there have been too many comments, tweets and references over the years to say that DE don’t at least read the Megathreads).

But now? Of course not.

[Xzorn]

7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

From experience of watching these kinds of threads in relation to the updates that come out, from The Sword Alone, to Parkour, to the Mod Slot rework, to the Relic System

 

Wait... are you saying you still think Relics were a good addition to the game? =P

None of those things were really complete positive outcomes. Parkour helped turn the game into one big speed run. Trivialized player positioning while also giving birth the the infamous Hook spam we all love. Only thing I took as a total positive from Parkour was the more twitchy and rewarding dodge.

Pretty much everything DE does comes out about 50/50 at best. It's not unreasonable players have a knee jerk reaction to the word "Rework" because it's pretty much synonymous with Nerf and DE themselves are guilty of equally over reacting to try and counter some player tactic they decide they don't like.

Sure.. Players shouldn't judge something before it comes out. Esp before seeing the numbers as that's the most important  part... Then again, it's DE.

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

None of those things were really complete positive outcomes.

And I did, in fact, say that. Literally the first sentence of the summary paragraph on that same comment.

9 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Parkour helped turn the game into one big speed run.

It... already was? Where were you when people literally coptered everywhere with melee animations and speed-run everything in the game with that instead? When the Tipedo was first released, the combination of it being a fast Copter and a fantastic Air Attack mobility weapon made it temporarily the most used Melee in the game specifically because of that.

Anyone that says Parkour somehow changed the game so we went faster genuinely doesn't remember how fast that accidental system really was... or the old version of bullet jump that was the forward somersault that was capable of catapulting us across a map if you did it on the right terrain...

12 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

It's not unreasonable players have a knee jerk reaction to the word "Rework" because it's pretty much synonymous with Nerf

I'm looking back at the last couple of years and, since Ember's WoF nerf, I'm not seeing many there. I'm seeing a heck of a lot of buffs to things, though. What 'reworks' are you referring to?

[Autongnosis]

il y a 38 minutes, Birdframe_Prime a dit :

So, you saw the Lift, which held enemies still in the air instead of rag doll, so still that we can even jump in the air and do aerial combos on them, and then the part that basic slams no longer rag doll enemies and instead stun and stagger them... and your response was ‘yep, no improvement at all over what we have now’?

No, my actual stance is I'm not sure lift is the right way to go about it as this isn't a DMC style game but a dinasty warrior clone, amd depending on how the whole aerial comboes and reach reworks are done it could either work well or be a disaster. 

I'm probably just a bit bitter the ragdolls stayed there for so long, so the whole response was a bit too harsh. 

il y a 38 minutes, Birdframe_Prime a dit :

You saw the return of manual weapon switch and manual block, of the stance reworks that fix the massive problems with our combo system, you saw animation cancelling, heavy attack inclusion, the ability to change one combo into another by having the game seek inputs every hit instead of after the combo ends, you even saw variable length dodge rolls... and your response is that they haven’t listened to any of our feedback?

Of all of that, which i didn't touch upon because personally they look like actual improvements, the only problem i have is with shorter dodges on block. Kinda counterintuitive to me, you tend to block when you're closing in on a ranged enemy, not when you're already there (or at least i do). Those are all good things. 

 

Bottom line is, there is value in preventive feedback, IF it's done properly. That's the main point i was getting at. 

 

[ranks21]

On ‎2019‎-‎10‎-‎20 at 8:06 PM, LSG501 said:

DE is removing a lot of the scaling (not just the multiplier) of these weapons so they're ultimately going to be weaker in late game, which in turn means DE can basically push endgame content under the carpet again. 

yes so much this. this is getting so old and predictable yet they are developers. I truly hope the changes will be a success for the game's sake but if it falls flat then you know how cruel the gaming community can be and how quickly a game can be shunned.

Edited October 22, 2019 by ranks21

[Birdframe_Prime]

28 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

Bottom line is, there is value in preventive feedback, IF it's done properly. That's the main point i was getting at. 

Correct, and we saw the example of that in the Status 2.5 update we were going to get for Khora's release, and the rework of the terrible 4th ability for Garuda.

But the key is this: Those had the feedback months before the update.

That's what doing this properly entails.

The literal week before it does nothing, no matter how well worded. And after the update the previous feedback will be ignored in favour of the new feedback based on players having experienced the change.

[Autongnosis]

il y a 7 minutes, Birdframe_Prime a dit :

But the key is this: Those had the feedback months before the update.

That's what doing this properly entails.

In this case we had literally no choice since there was no concrete information other than the prototype for new combos on wukong on what the change would entail, not even in general. 

[Cibyllae]

 

 

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And I did, in fact, say that. Literally the first sentence of the summary paragraph on that same comment.

It... already was? Where were you when people literally coptered everywhere with melee animations and speed-run everything in the game with that instead? When the Tipedo was first released, the combination of it being a fast Copter and a fantastic Air Attack mobility weapon made it temporarily the most used Melee in the game specifically because of that.

Anyone that says Parkour somehow changed the game so we went faster genuinely doesn't remember how fast that accidental system really was... or the old version of bullet jump that was the forward somersault that was capable of catapulting us across a map if you did it on the right terrain...

I'm looking back at the last couple of years and, since Ember's WoF nerf, I'm not seeing many there. I'm seeing a heck of a lot of buffs to things, though. What 'reworks' are you referring to?

Might have missed it.

Coptering wasn't "that" fast and it lacked vertical movement. You could only go forward. Old Void Puzzles are a pretty good representation of the differences. Remember Nova Portal and Super Jump? Coptering was still around half if not 1/3 the speed we can get now but that more important part was the vertical movement. That's what caused all the cheese hook attacks and enemies with movement prediction to be added to the game.

Nullifiers were the creation of anti-player tactics. DE cherry picking abilities to work against them in spite of continuity. Wisp and Rev 4th doesn't work cuz they don't like the result not because it make sense. Now it's bubble mania. We do too much damage to keep fighting the same enemies for 6 years so they start doing dumb stuff like damage gates a magical made-up resistances. Far as reworks they obliterated Nyx and Chroma. Stealth gameplay.. ugh. that's just a list of things. Not even talking about the damage nerf and I don't even know what Focus 2.0 was supposed to accomplish other than waste everyone's time with a mini-game farm.

It's weird you mention Ember cuz I mean.. that's not really recent. That's been a very long and sad story spanning years. Mirage is similar. They just keep hamming something they don't like then go... Oh this frame needs a rework when it worked fine before they made a mess of something...

Like I said it's a little silly to protest something that isn't out but at the same time the track record isn't exactly stellar either so I don't fault anyone.

[Kimimoto]

14 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Relic System...

 

14 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

massive improvements to how we play the game.

lol

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Coptering wasn't "that" fast

In the coptering method, Drift Frame runs were as fast and sometimes faster than they are now. There was virtually no need for vertical movement and the tiles have been changed since then to allow for the vertical movement we now have.

11 hours ago, Xzorn said:

It's weird you mention Ember cuz I mean.. that's not really recent.

That was the actual point. It's not recent. Reworks have been, since then, overwhelmingly buffs. New items, however, like Nullifiers, made to limit us, are new implementations. And if Nullifiers are your best example of a nerf to the game... well, it's one.

7 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

lol

Oh look, a person that thinks removing the elitist and exclusive method of attaining Prime Parts, diversifying it across the entire star chart, ensuring that it's now possible to get a chance at any given Prime Part from the first rotation of any given mission type available without diluting that mission's drop table, removing basic mods and credits from the Prime Part drop pool and even allowing us to mildly skew the odds of a particular drop in our favour are somehow, magically, not improvements.

Would you look at that? I didn't think those kind of people could even... oh wait, the response was 'lol', I guess I don't even need to finish that sentence. They opted for a one line 'zinger' response thinking it makes them look clever. Yyyyyeah.

I was part of the Key system long-run meta from three months after I joined to its end. I enjoyed it, it was fun, but the Relic system means I can now spend a few minutes in mission instead of three hours, meanwhile the players that weren't there have just as much chance at getting parts as I do, plus if I go in a team, I can play a Capture and have instantly achieved 4x the rolls at the drop table, and no matter what I'm always guaranteed a prime part or Forma blueprint. There is absolutely no downside to the Relic system other than that you now can't stockpile Relics in advance like you could Keys and each new item has to be attained by everyone the same way.

[Fallen77]

Le 20/10/2019 à 16:09, Otakuwolf a dit :

One of the reasons which make melee lategame viable right now is the fact that the combo meter increases your melee damage exponentially and give it some kind of scaling.

By having the combo meter only apply to heavy attacks, this concept will fly out the window and make melee (and melee built warframes) completely pointless past a certain point in the game.

Make the combo meter matter also in normal attacks, let it be manageable so IF I WANT i can spend a portion of it for a heavy attack, don't make it a purely heavy attack mechanic, because that way it gets pointless to build up a meter for ONE heavy attack that may or may not deliver the desired result.

At 400 consecutiv hits, you only get x3.5 damage. You need to bump it to 1200 hits to only get x4 damage. It doesn't scale exponentially, it scales exponentially slower and slower. And how often, in regular content (aka, not 2h+ survival and such), are you gonna build up such combo ?

Also, did you miss the part where they said they are largely increasing base damage across the board ? If all goes well, we'd have our normal weapon damage from the first hit, rather than having to wack stuff 20 times before getting its expected damage.

[Kimimoto]

13 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Oh look

kek