Atlas Needs to Work in Arbitrations

[ShasOBorkan]

As we all know, you cannot use abilities as effectively in arbitrations due to arbitration drones making enemies untargeted. This (and changes like it) make incredibly ability-reliant frames highly disadvantaged in Arbitrations.

A frame like Atlas- top of mind due to his prime access- suffers a lot in this regard, as the drones impact his ability to petrify, landslide, and ultimately build his rubble effectively (and recover it against the decay rate late game). Being unable to Landslide and Petrify many enemies not only inhibits his damage output like intended, but because of his kit interaction it seriously effects his tank-ability and drops him much below better and tankier frames where he might otherwise be a lot more viable for longer Arbitration runs.

Really it's an issue of ability-cancelling elements seriously messing with the frame balance broadly, but in particular I wanted to narrow in on its effects on Atlas.

TL;DR Arbitration drones inhibit Atlas' whole kit synergy, making him much less effective in Arbitrations, and this should be fixed.

 

Edit: Just to be clear, the suggested fix for these issues (commented below when asked) is the following:

Quote

I actually think the drones shouldn't detonate and wipe out the nearby enemies, it makes Arbitrations too easy in the first place. If they didn't kill nearby enemies, you could just shoot them and punch their nearby people (as previous commenter pointed out).

This effects more than just Atlas, Atlas was who I had in mind when I framed the OP. This is not a call for a buff, nerf, or rework for Atlas.

Edited October 23, 2019 by ShasOBorkan
People are not reading the thread.

[GinKenshin]

Why not just...shoot the drones? I mean if anything atlas needs to be a bit closer range for him to use abilities, thus it shouldn't be an issue to take the drones out, compared to frames who can't get too close and have to cast from afar 

[Pizzarugi]

How would you suggest fixing it that wouldn't also make it easier for other frames to bypass the challenge Arbitration Drones provide? Their whole gimmick is to make enemies immune to you, requiring you to do more than simply spam your favorite abilities until everything is dead.

My suggestion is that you either take a gun that has good punch-through to take out the drones, or play something else that isn't Atlas in Arbitration.

[Famecans]

60min maybe more and atlas can survive, it depends a lot on the build of resistance, arcane_grace or healing_return and the type of melee weapon you use with range and damage to kill the drones.

[ShasOBorkan]

1 minute ago, GinKenshin said:

Why not just...shoot the drones?

Because this is not the point of Atlas' kit, he punches (and shooting drones wipes the nearby enemies removing targets for his kit).

1 minute ago, Pizzarugi said:

How would you suggest fixing it that wouldn't also make it easier for other frames to bypass the challenge Arbitration Drones provide? Their whole gimmick is to make enemies immune to you, requiring you to do more than simply spam your favorite abilities until everything is dead.

My suggestion is that you either take a gun that has good punch-through to take out the drones, or play something else that isn't Atlas in Arbitration.

I actually think the drones shouldn't detonate and wipe out the nearby enemies, it makes Arbitrations too easy in the first place. If they didn't kill nearby enemies, you could just shoot them and punch their nearby people (as previous commenter pointed out).

[Pizzarugi]

1 minute ago, ShasOBorkan said:

I actually think the drones shouldn't detonate and wipe out the nearby enemies, it makes Arbitrations too easy in the first place. If they didn't kill nearby enemies, you could just shoot them and punch their nearby people (as previous commenter pointed out).

That's only an issue for early runs. The drones do a flat amount of damage when they explode, meaning enemies of a high enough level will be able to survive the detonation.

[ShasOBorkan]

3 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

That's only an issue for early runs. The drones do a flat amount of damage when they explode, meaning enemies of a high enough level will be able to survive the detonation.

I'm not sure it's that simple, they will wipe out most of a pack for most of the duration of a 60min arbitration in my experience, one I ran last night went 60min and it prompted me to make this post.

[Pizzarugi]

4 minutes ago, ShasOBorkan said:

I'm not sure it's that simple, they will wipe out most of a pack for most of the duration of a 60min arbitration in my experience, one I ran last night went 60min and it prompted me to make this post.

To make sure I was correct (which I'm apparently not), I checked the wiki on drone's blast damage. They deal a base 3000, but it can apparently scale per level. That's news to me.

What were the enemies you were fighting at the time? I can see them 1-shotting Corpus since blast damage has no strengths or weaknesses against them, but Grineer's scaling armor and Infested healer auras should be able to resist or outright nullify the damage after a point.

[Uhkretor]

This entire topic remind me of another topic where the topic creator explicitly said that the companion AI is dumb because it rushes forward to destroy the drones, while ignoring the rest of the 'invulnerable' pack...

 

... But this time, its about Atlas and drones inhibiting its entire kit...

 

Pro tip: Destroy the drones!

[ShasOBorkan]

8 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

To make sure I was correct (which I'm apparently not), I checked the wiki on drone's blast damage. They deal a base 3000, but it can apparently scale per level. That's news to me.

What were the enemies you were fighting at the time? I can see them 1-shotting Corpus since blast damage has no strengths or weaknesses against them, but Grineer's scaling armor and Infested healer auras should be able to resist or outright nullify the damage after a point.

We were doing an Infested Survival.

[musicalsocks23]

11 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

Why not just...shoot the drones?

Some frames are not designed to simply just be gun carriers. Certain frames (Atlas, Garuda - to name another) are really hindered by having to break their combo by having to gun carry, just to kill the arbitration drones, which then just ruin your combos.

26 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

play something else that isn't Atlas in Arbitration.

What's the point in having the rotation of 300% strength buffs for random frames if it's only feasible to bring a survivable frame to gun carry?

Arbitrations are supposed to be end game content, and while some frames obviously are not capable of this content, you should be able to successfully use more than just Rhino, Inaros and Nezha in the missions.

[Pizzarugi]

58 minutes ago, musicalsocks23 said:

What's the point in having the rotation of 300% strength buffs for random frames if it's only feasible to bring a survivable frame to gun carry?

Because RNG, I reckon? 😛

For every frame that gets rolled for the strength buff, the rest of the entire roster has to be content with the lack of a buff. It's just a strength buff, you're not really missing out on a whole lot if your favorite frame didn't get picked or isn't good for the mission even if it was. You said yourself that you acknowledge that some frames obviously aren't capable of this content. Atlas might just be one of them, especially if the drone is now able to 1shot groups of enemies up to 60 minute missions according to the OP.

I'm skeptical of drones 1shotting enemies even in missions lasting a whole hour and I will be taking a look at this myself to confirm if this is true or not.

58 minutes ago, musicalsocks23 said:

Arbitrations are supposed to be end game content, and while some frames obviously are not capable of this content, you should be able to successfully use more than just Rhino, Inaros and Nezha in the missions.

If you're only looking at those frames to be considered viable for Arbitration, I recommend you broaden your perspective and try out a few others.
- The last time I ran one was a week or two back as Nidus. He can't build mutation when hitting enemies who are shielded by the drone, so I pop it and continue playing as normal.
- Despite him falling behind in viability in the current state of the game, Loki's invisibility is still perfect for letting him take free potshots at the drones.
- While on the topic of invisibility, Octavia is also good in this mission to draw enemy attention with her abilities and can also take free potshots at the drones.
- Ash, also because of invisibility to allow safely shooting at the drone.
- Ivara... Okay, let's just say any frames with invisibility can easily take down shield drones.
- Depending on the mission, Limbo should be able to tackle Arbitration, especially in missions like excavation if you can kill the drones quickly enough.
- Revenant is immortal with infinitely-scaling damage for Reave, but it's very important to kill the drones since enemies can't be stunned by Mesmer Skin or be Enthralled.
- Nekros is still very useful in Arbitration survivals with Desecrate, and using Shield of Shadows augment means he can spend more time focusing down the drones while his shadows aggro the group.
- Gara is pretty decent, since her glass walls can block enemy movements and has an ability that helps reduce damage taken.
- Zephyr has an ability to deflect incoming projectiles, assuming you don't build her to have less than 100% range.

Barring any of these, your Operator is your last go-to solution for drones. They can't technically die and, I'm not sure if it's intentional, you can use the tether mine from Magus Lockdown to freeze drones and a couple enemies so you can hammer them.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[musicalsocks23]

2 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

If you're only looking at those frames to be considered viable for Arbitration, I recommend you broaden your perspective and try out a few others

I'm not suggesting that there are only 3 frames that are viable for Arbitrations, there are a variety of frames that you could use, but even in majority of your suggestions for ways to deal with the drones, shooting them is your only solution.

I believe the point of this post is not to suggest that the drones are difficult to deal with, they just may need a different approach when you are considering frames that do not necessarily want to use guns.

6 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Revenant is immortal with infinitely-scaling damage for Reave, but it's very important to kill the drones

You've actually reinforced my point here by adding Revenant to the list of frames that have difficulty using their kit successfully with the drones active, without being a gun carrier. 

[Pizzarugi]

3 minutes ago, musicalsocks23 said:

You've actually reinforced my point here by adding Revenant to the list of frames that have difficulty using their kit successfully with the drones active, without being a gun carrier. 

Not really.

I don't see why it's so difficult to take a gun and, you know, shoot them. It's not like the game can just let you play without having at least one weapon. Just take your favorite gun with you and save it for popping drones. 😛

You're not being told to shoot the enemies the drones are protecting, just shoot the drone then spam your abilities like you always do.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[ShasOBorkan]

17 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I'm skeptical of drones 1shotting enemies even in missions lasting a whole hour and I will be taking a look at this myself to confirm if this is true or not.

Just to be super clear @Pizzarugi I was speaking generally. The drones don't one-shot everything past minute 30, but they wipe out a lot of the weak enemies and dilutes the pack enough to be a problem for Atlas who chains many punches and could benefit from working through the whole pack. I appreciate you went and looked it up on the wiki!

 

Edited October 20, 2019 by ShasOBorkan

[ShasOBorkan]

9 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I don't see why it's so difficult to take a gun and, you know, shoot them. It's not like the game can just let you play without having at least one weapon. Just take your favorite gun with you and save it for popping drones. 😛

And yeah I know other people in this thread got confused on this point - it isn't the drones themselves that are the issue; it's how they affect the pack around them and detonate, leaving many frames unable to ever use abilities and interact with the mobs, that is the issue.

One can easily just shoot the drones and play Arbitrations right now (I mentioned they're a lot easier than they used to be), but this would be ignoring everything stated in the thread.

Edited October 20, 2019 by ShasOBorkan

[Uhkretor]

So, the problem is that shooting the drone detonates and kills the group that's next to them?

... Seriously?

 

... I fail to see why that's a problem.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Uhkretor

[ShasOBorkan]

4 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

So, the problem is that shooting the drone detonates and kills the group that's next to them?

... Seriously?

Yes.

3 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... I fail to see why that's a problem.

I'm not sure you're reading the thread:

54 minutes ago, ShasOBorkan said:

it isn't the drones themselves that are the issue; it's how they affect the pack around them and detonate, leaving many frames unable to ever use abilities and interact with the mobs, that is the issue.

This adversely affects many frames and their kits versus others, reducing them to mere gun carriages. I don't think this is very fun - particularly for Atlas. If your goal is merely to get the most rewards or reach the longest duration you can in Arbitrations, without caring about how you are enjoying the gameplay to get there, then this thread simply isn't for you. In a case like that, Rhino will always be better than Atlas by just running Iron Skin. That doesn't mean there is no issue if Atlas' kit is effectively impotent in Arbitrations.

 

 

[Uhkretor]

In addition to

10 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... I fail to see why that's a problem.

In which it isn't a problem since enemies get killed, as is the real purpose of Arbitration Drones... I also fail to see the following

3 minutes ago, ShasOBorkan said:

I'm not sure you're reading the thread:

as any other conclusion than trolling.

 

... You want to use Atlas' kit on an Arbitration? wrong mission type, dude. Get over it.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Uhkretor

[ShasOBorkan]

12 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... You want to use Atlas' kit on an Arbitration? wrong mission type, dude. Get over it already.

This is a feedback thread, the feedback is that Arbitrations, being near end game content, should function as missions where frames with kits like Atlas' are enjoyable and can still be played. It is the wrong mission type for Atlas now, but I do not think this is how it should be. This is the purpose of the feedback forums, I am not trolling, please be more respectful or leave the thread if you disagree.

A quick edit, reinforcing this point:

Reading the Wiki you can see the following:

Quote

To encourage gameplay diversity, players are given a +300% Ability Strength bonus and a +300% Damage bonus to a random Warframe and Weapon for each alert. - https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Arbitrations

Build diversity in Arbitrations is a goal here, so it would be fitting to expect changes to help encourage that.

Edited October 20, 2019 by ShasOBorkan

[Uhkretor]

Look, ever since the Arbitrations were released that they aren't more than simple "Drone Shoot". Its the fastest method to deal with enemies... To do what you want to do, you need to blow up the drone before it joins the group, and then use abilities to your heart's content.

12 minutes ago, ShasOBorkan said:

please be more respectful or leave the thread if you disagree.

I am being respectful though. You'll definitely know the difference IF I stop being respectful.

 

Arbitrations, as any other part of the game, offers choices. You have the choice of blowing up the drone before it joins the group, so that you can have your way and use abilities. I think that's what everyone else tried to say, if it wasn't obvious enough.

However, the choice you've made (and I'm not judging you for that choice) is to not blow up the drones before they join the group and create a feedback topic that, essentially, is a request to eliminate the blast damage caused by the drone's explosion so that you, or anyone else that uses warframe abilities as their "main weapon", can have the emotional satisfaction of using them.

I personally though that the drones making the group invulnerable spells out "shoot me with something else other than abilities" perfectly. Players should adapt to the running circumstances in a mission, and not just on the loadout choice. Want me to provide feedback to your feedback? Here it goes...

 

... Your feedback has no sense due to the choices available and/or the real time circumstance changes in a given mission. Abilities can be used, but it is up to you when to do it, and like in any arbitration topic where drones are involved, one way or another, the only possible answer is "blow up those drones"... Using abilities depends solely on how fast you can kill them after they spawn...

... And no, drones spawn most of the time apart from the group.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Uhkretor

[ShasOBorkan]

17 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

However, the choice you've made (and I'm not judging you for that choice) is to not blow up the drones before they join the group and create a feedback topic that, essentially, is a request to eliminate the blast damage caused by the drone's explosion so that you, or anyone else that uses warframe abilities as their "main weapon", can have the emotional satisfaction of using them.

I don't think this is that unreasonable, I am requesting to eliminate the blast damage for that reason - though I have also mentioned a secondary reason that is Arbitrations are just too easy now anyways.

17 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... Your feedback has no sense due to the choices available and/or the real time circumstance changes in a given mission. Abilities can be used, but it is up to you to do it, and like in any arbitration topic where drones are involved, one way or another, the only possible answer is "blow up those drones"... Using abilities depends solely on how fast you can kill them after they spawn...

I already explained that this is how it is now, but the feedback is that this is not how it should be. And the reason your feedback is wrong here is that I am negatively impacted with my desire (not choice, but desire) to play Atlas in Arbitrations in the current status, whereas your choice to simply shoot the drones would not be negatively impacted if my feedback (drone detonation not dealing damage/wiping packs) were implemented. So specifically, there is upside without downside... and this is disregarding that there is further upside for everyone in that more frames benefit similarly and Arbitrations could regain their challenge and fun... so being frustrated about the feedback topic seems illogical to me. I don't see a downside to the change.

Your note about the "choices available" isn't a criticism of the feedback, it's a presumption about the choices I make in game and how I choose to deal with circumstance (and criticizing that those choices I make are wrong, implicitly). This is simply not true, as I usually run Rhino in Arbitrations anyways for these reasons. The feedback is that the circumstances and how the Arbitrations play out should be changed, to be more challenging and more fun, and operable with more diverse kits.

It would be nicer to have this implemented, it is a change I would like... we're allowed to want changes, this is the point of the feedback forums... I'm not sure why you took it where you did.

Edit:

Now if you are saying that Arbitrations shouldn't be more challenging and instead kept easier via keeping the drones the same to keep up the easiness of a run with, say, Rhino - that I can understand. But I think we would have to agree to disagree on what would improve Arbitrations in general (we have different fundamental desires for the experience of the game mode in this case).

Edited October 20, 2019 by ShasOBorkan

[Uhkretor]

39 minutes ago, ShasOBorkan said:

And the reason your feedback is wrong here is that I am negatively impacted with my desire (not choice, but desire) to play Atlas in Arbitrations in the current status, whereas your choice to simply shoot the drones would not be negatively impacted if my feedback (drone detonation not dealing damage/wiping packs) were implemented.

Its a feedback topic, so it isn't wrong. You're making yourself be negatively impacted by your *cough* choice *cough* desire to play Atlas in Arbitrations in its current status, where Arbitrations have always offered the choices I've mentioned before to the participant player(s). Drones didn't have blast damage at the start, but DE was practically forced to implement that feature into them some time afterwards. Its not a matter of making easier or harder, its a matter of offering choices. I'm not saying that you shouldn't play with Atlas, please, play with whatever you want... The Arbitration Drones will care about it as much as I do...

We all know that the choice to destroy the drone before it joins up with the enemy group exists, and can easily be taken, but most actually want the drone to join the group for a myriad of reasons. One of those being, ammo efficiency. The other, because its the only worthwhile enemy in the whole mission type. And there are many more reasons out there that its already past the "I don't care" phase already.

39 minutes ago, ShasOBorkan said:

the feedback is that this is not how it should be

Its how it became into after a high number of players complained about the "high difficulty" of Arbitrations. Those same people forced DE to take away full spawns in solo runs. They are also responsible for the whole Revival debacle in a mission type where you only have one life. They also were responsible for us losing the ability to manually equip our melee weapons and/or manually block with them (Fortunately, the mass requesting a reversal was a lot higher than they expected).

A lot of people disagree with you and they don't even need to be here, in this specific topic. The only thing they'll do is to cry with hundreds of different topics about the same thing, and it'll get adjusted the way they want.

The Staff appreciates the feedback. Hell, we all do. But there's "a mass of differences" keeping the blast damage on those drones. The choice to kill them before they join the group is yours, and yours alone. The current reality of Arbitrations gives out that choice, which players are free to take it or not. Those that take it end up using their abilities to their hearts' content. The ones that don't, they eliminate the whole group with a single kill.

Its perfectly normal for people to feel their warframe kits useless when they actually want to use them, but are unaware of the choice presented to them. I'm assuming that you already knew about that choice, and willingly chose not to... Which led you here, into making this feedback topic, and assuming that I am disagreeing with you because of the content of my posts.

... You're wrong. I disagree by principle and I am yet to be convinced otherwise... Sure, you're not trying to convince me, you're simply providing feedback to DE's Staff... But here's the thing... If you can't convince me (which, despite having the choice of an easier path, I always choose the hardest challenges), how are you going to convince the hundreds, or thousands, players that actually cried about the "high difficulty" and caused the blast damage to be there?

39 minutes ago, ShasOBorkan said:

Your note about the "choices available" isn't a criticism of the feedback, it's a presumption about the choices I make in game and how I choose to deal with circumstance (and criticizing that those choices I make are wrong, implicitly).

False, I didn't point out that they were wrong. If you're feeling that I pointed out your choices as wrong choices, then you're self-criticizing. I pointed out that there are choices available to be made, which is completely different than what you chose to understand from it.

 

Your choices are your choices, no one has the right to say that they are either right choices, or wrong choices. This is a conclusion that you, and you alone, have to get from the results of said choices.

 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Uhkretor

[ShasOBorkan]

I think this comment has kind of lost the plot here... a lot of this is true, the players complaining about manually blocking, and complaining about old Arbitrations and influencing them to be easier... but I'm not seeing where it maps onto the topic or thread anymore. It sounds like your issue is more that there simply are dozens, or hundreds of threads of people asking for changes to reflect what they'd like to see in the game, or that for some reason my thread is wrong because others want the drones to blow up?

48 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... You're wrong. I disagree by principle and I am yet to be convinced otherwise...

Again, this just sounds like "agree to disagree" territory. If you want your Arbitrations to be easier for you to complete them, that's a fine perspective, but I would like more of a challenge out of them and be able to enjoy Atlas to boot. I personally don't find them that challenging whether I kill the drone at spawn or in a pack... but it is okay for you to prefer it to be easier for you to complete. It's a relatively minor point, but again you could just do lower level content or improve your builds if its an issue as well (Rhino Iron Skin makes endurance Arbitrations very easy as an example).

 

Edited October 20, 2019 by ShasOBorkan

[Atsia]

Sooooo.........the drones are working entirely as intended, am I correct? They're supposed to hinder your ability use, with the obvious answer to them being just shoot them with a gun.