Atlas Needs to Work in Arbitrations

[Rythiman]

Not to dismiss your point but your issue with arbitration is sort of the point of the game mode. The drones are design a challenge and change the way you would normally play, and your complaint is that you have to change the way you play in arbitration. So this post basically boils down to "I don't like this game mode", or rather "I don't like my build being challenged".

There is more than one way to build each Warframe. Atlas Prime in particular has excellent stats. His health, armor, and energy stats are so high that he has excellent survivability, which gives you time to adjust your strategy when drones appear. In fact, I don't build my Atlas exclusively for punching anyway, I focus more on improving his already absurdly high stats. And I use abilities only when needed. So from my perspective and play style Atlas is the last frame that struggles in this mode. There are other squishier frames that would have made a better point for your argument (like Limbo who is as durable as a wet paper towel without his abilities, who I manage to still play arbitration with mind you).

 

Tl;Dr "git gud"

Edited October 21, 2019 by Rythiman

[selig_fay]

These drones are forcing me to leave razorwing because my Dex Pixia doesn't work for them. On the other hand, drones are not capable of clear control while I'm using hildryn 4. Something tells me the drones aren't working right. At least in my opinion they should follow the same rules as nullifiers.

[Gurpgork]

1 hour ago, Rythiman said:

Not to dismiss your point but your issue with arbitration is sort of the point of the game mode. The drones are design a challenge and change the way you would normally play, and your complaint is that you have to change the way you play in arbitration. So this post basically boils down to "I don't like this game mode", or rather "I don't like my build being challenged".

The intended goal of Arbitration missions is sound, but in practice, they don't so much challenge you as they stifle build diversity. The fact that they disproportionately weaken Warframes that rely on CC and/or weapon scaling abilities just pushes you into running a tank with a Catchmoon. 

And that isn't difficulty. Weapon platform tanks are really easy to play, and good AoE guns can trivialize the drones. 

1 hour ago, Rythiman said:

There is more than one way to build each Warframe. Atlas Prime in particular has excellent stats. His health, armor, and energy stats are so high that he has excellent survivability, which gives you time to adjust your strategy when drones appear.

Building for stats doesn't exactly take advantage of the unique aspects of Atlas. And, in fact, he's going to be pretty heavily outclassed by the likes of Nezha, Rhino, and Chroma if you do that. 

Like if you want to play Atlas in an Arbitration, the choice you're left with is feeling gimped by not really being able to use your abilities or playing a worse Chroma. 

1 hour ago, Rythiman said:

Tl;Dr "git gud"

Remembering to stick an Arca Plasmor in your loadout isn't skill. 

[ShasOBorkan]

3 hours ago, Rythiman said:

Not to dismiss your point but your issue with arbitration is sort of the point of the game mode. The drones are design a challenge and change the way you would normally play, and your complaint is that you have to change the way you play in arbitration.

You and the poster on the previous page I worry didn't read the clarifying points later in the thread. This really only makes sense if you take "a challenge and change the way you would normally play" to mean "disable some frames and not others, while keeping arbitrations much less challenging overall," which really doesn't make sense.

Arbitrations force frames like Atlas (and others) not to change how he plays, but to simply not use his kit. His kit is more or less rendered impotent, and there are no advantages to his abilities in the game mode. If we look at approaching arbitrations in terms of achieving the most effective use out of your frame, then you objectively should always play Rhino over Atlas (as an example). And, since for some reason people think I'm just a stubborn and stuck Atlas main, I will mentioned I do play Rhino in Arbitrations, because I do change my tactics to fit the game mode. This feedback is about how it should be instead. As it is, there a frames whose kits run more or less unencumbered by the effect of the drones (Rhino) and frames who are rendered highly ineffectual due to them (Atlas). Yet, this runs counter to the goal of build diversity, as expressed by the random +300% multiplier.

The additional thorn in the side of an Atlas player is that these drones don't make arbitrations harder, they make them easier. I did not ask for them to be removed, only that they don't damage enemies when dying. If these changes make you uncomfortable, you could always embody your 'git gud'  mentality, such that you could gain the confidence in your builds to play at a comfort level where you don't need arbitration drones to deal damage for you, like me. Arbitrations are much easier now than they would be if my criticism were implemented, and it would enable better build diversity. It is neither more challenging nor more clever to simply just play Rhino or Nezha and slap an Arca Plasmor on, as @Gurpgork said.

[(PSN)thegarada]

On 2019-10-20 at 10:32 AM, Pizzarugi said:

How would you suggest fixing it that wouldn't also make it easier for other frames to bypass the challenge Arbitration Drones provide? Their whole gimmick is to make enemies immune to you, requiring you to do more than simply spam your favorite abilities until everything is dead.

My suggestion is that you either take a gun that has good punch-through to take out the drones, or play something else that isn't Atlas in Arbitration.

But that is the issue. Many frames rely on CC and enemy targeting skills, not only for damage, but also for survivability. Making enemies untargetable makes these frames impossible to use in an arbitration. And also, the drones need, as you mentioned, a punch-through gun. You see how very limited this becomes with less than a dozen of frames and guns being viable?

The arbitration drones are a very poorly designed. 

[peterc3]

Your frame is as much a part of your loadout for a given game mode as the weapons and companions you bring.

There are no mains. If X frame doesn't work for you for a certain mode, use another.

1 hour ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

The arbitration drones are a very poorly designed. 

You not liking something does not mean something is badly made.

[(PSN)thegarada]

8 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Your frame is as much a part of your loadout for a given game mode as the weapons and companions you bring.

There are no mains. If X frame doesn't work for you for a certain mode, use another.

You not liking something does not mean something is badly made.

In my post I made it clear why I think it is badly designed.. I did not just say I like so it is bad.

And this is why this thread exists to begin with. Arbitrations are extremely exclusionary due to the drones.

[peterc3]

4 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Arbitrations are extremely exclusionary due to the drones.

Many frames can't solo Interceptions. Many frames do not work for Defense missions. Should Stalker be changed given he can show up regardless of your current loadout and doesn't respond to most/all frame abilities?

[Klokwerkaos]

21 hours ago, Atsia said:

Sooooo.........the drones are working entirely as intended, am I correct? They're supposed to hinder your ability use, with the obvious answer to them being just shoot them with a gun.

but i want my favorite frame buffed to be a god at everything!!! you people clearly don't understand how the game is supposed to reward me for simply existing...

I would like to take the least optimal load out, win all the things while the game plays itself for me, and then be showered with top value loot drops in the process... ugh, do I have to explain everything?

Edited October 22, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[ShasOBorkan]

1 hour ago, Klokwerkaos said:

but i want my favorite frame buffed to be a god at everything!!! you people clearly don't understand how the game is supposed to reward me for simply existing...

The feedback wasn't asking for a buff, again... the feedback would make Arbitrations more challenging while also making them more operable for more diverse builds... I'm not sure why so many found this to be such an affront. If you struggle enough in Arbitrations to need the game mode to remain and have drones blow up mobs, then why not just improve your builds?

1 hour ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I would like to take the least optimal load out, win all the things while the game plays itself for me, and then be showered with top value loot drops in the process... ugh, do I have to explain everything?

A situation where the game mode is a) dumbed down and easier, and b) not conducive to build variety is a worse situation than if the game mode could be a) more challenging, and b) more conducive to build variety.

The second point, again, is made relevant to Arbitrations because of the expressed goal in virtue of the random +300% bonus- making this criticism:

2 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Many frames can't solo Interceptions. Many frames do not work for Defense missions. Should Stalker be changed given he can show up regardless of your current loadout and doesn't respond to most/all frame abilities?

Flaccid and objectively ill considered. 

Further to that point, Arbitrations themselves are defense/interception/survival/etc so it's pretty obvious this is a wrong analogy. Again, if you personally really struggle without the drones detonating weak packs... you can personally improve your builds to meet the challenge...

I'm not getting the constant implications that I can't 'respond to the circumstances of the game mode' or to 'git gud' simply because I am giving feedback. I've stated over and over Arbitrations are easy as they are now, and I do play Rhino because he is more appropriate. I just think the game would be better if this change were implemented. I just see comment after comment complaining about something I haven't raised ('I want a buff'... 'just shoot the drones'... etc... these are not issues for me or related to the feedback...).

More challenge + more diversity for build viability in the mode is a good thing. If your issues are that you don't want the added challenge of the drone damage being removed, I can at least understand that, but... you could just get better at Arbitrations yourself.

[Gurpgork]

2 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

but i want my favorite frame buffed to be a god at everything!!! you people clearly don't understand how the game is supposed to reward me for simply existing...

I would like to take the least optimal load out, win all the things while the game plays itself for me, and then be showered with top value loot drops in the process... ugh, do I have to explain everything?

If anything, OP has been pretty directly advocating for making Arbitrations harder in this thread. One of their top suggestions is to remove the damage from killing a drone. 

Like the central frustration with Arbitrations isn't that they're too hard. It's that people spend time optimizing a Warframe like Atlas, and then want to take this Warframe into Arbitrations to stress test these builds against difficult content only for the entire Warframe to be made basically worthless. 

This doesn't even make the missions harder in many cases, because tanks and Plasmors are absurdly powerful and trivialize the mechanics. 

Also we're supposed to be able to bring suboptimal equipment into these missions. That's why they have the 300% buffs to random equipment. We're supposed to try out weird niche stuff in this game mode, only for the mechanics to severely hamper more than half of the Warframe roster at the starting gate. 

[Klokwerkaos]

40 minutes ago, ShasOBorkan said:

snip

I should get better at arbitrations?  is 1000 vitus in 3 days good enough or should I try harder?  sorry i suck so bad.  I"ll go back to learning how to arb.
 

28 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

snip

atlas is viable for all content, he's just not particularly good at anything.

this is a core power design problem.  unfortunately while atlas "can" do anything, he's not particularly good at anything.

what can he do?  

he can sorta tank with rubble, except that a dozen infinitely better tanks exist.

he can sorta cc by blocking a choke with a wall, except literally all cc frames that exist, like I'm fairly certain his wall is the weakest cc in the game..

he can use his slow animation punch to hit stuff, except that everyone can one shot everything in the game, even in arbs up to 45 min with sub optimal gear, 60 if you've got good gear, and after that the punch is too slow to stay alive while using and you're only recourse for the 90+ runs is either premade cheese or spinning like a demon and never missing timing for anything, not to mention big damage numbers mean nothing if it dies in one shot, whether it's 1K damage or 1M damage, it's irrelevant.

he can ore gaze a dargyn pilot if you precisely aim for a riven challenge, except that nidus gives no f's and can pull them off the ground after hitting them and you just need to aim somewhere in the zip code.  atlas can also take out a high value target with his gaze, or you know, you could just put a bullet in them or slap them with your ninja stick of choice.

in literally every situation atlas is outdone by several leagues by frames better suited to the job.  this doesn't mean he's not viable... you can totally use him if you want to intentionally gimp yourself for extra challenge, but that's on you at that point.

the problem is that atlas is crap at a core level by design.  this has nothing to do with arbitrations.  the only reason to choose atlas is because you think he's cool personally, and that's a very questionable opinion to have.  perhaps one day new content will allow atlas to have his day in the sun, but even that is doubtful since he lags behind so far at everything he does.  it's possible kuva liches might be susceptible to one punch ism, at that point, in a single target fight he might be worth something if they are exceptionally spongey, but even then, 1 punch from atlas, or 2-3 hits from your x... seems trival when you could pick a frame with better overall utility for the rest of the mission, because just like everything else there is a 95% chance you'll seem mr 8's running around doing liches in the first week because de is allergic to gating content properly to the detriment of the game.
 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[Tatann]

Considering his tankyness, and the fact that his tankyness doesn't disappear in an instant in a Nullifier bubble, he's actually at an advantage in arbitrations compared to squishy nukes

Like every other frames, he needs to pop the drones with a gun, but he can do it with less worry

[selig_fay]

8 часов назад, Klokwerkaos сказал:

the problem is that atlas is crap at a core level by design. this has nothing to do with arbitrations. the only reason to choose atlas is because you think he's cool personally, and that's a very questionable opinion to have. perhaps one day new content will allow atlas to have his day in the sun, but even that is doubtful since he lags behind so far at everything he does. it's possible kuva liches might be susceptible to one punch ism, at that point, in a single target fight he might be worth something if they are exceptionally spongey, but even then, 1 punch from atlas, or 2-3 hits from your x... seems trival when you could pick a frame with better overall utility for the rest of the mission, because just like everything else there is a 95% chance you'll seem mr 8's running around doing liches in the first week because de is allergic to gating content properly to the detriment of the game.

Mesa also crap, judging by your logic.

[ShasOBorkan]

9 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I should get better at arbitrations?  is 1000 vitus in 3 days good enough or should I try harder?  sorry i suck so bad.  I"ll go back to learning how to arb.

As I said, arbitrations are quite easy nowadays. I wouldn't expect anyone, with sufficient enough investment in the game to post regularly on the forums, to struggle with an extended run. You have been arguing against feedback which would only increase their challenge, so I'm not sure how else to interpret that. You could just improve your builds, but I expect most people running arbitrations are already at a level this change wouldn't impair them much. If your builds are fine, then it wouldn't really affect you much other than marginally increased challenge and allowing better build diversity and interactivity with enemies. This is only signalling some insecurity on your own arbitration confidence from my perspective, I'm not sure why else you are so concerned and feel the need to establish that you can beat arbitrations (who can't?).

9 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

atlas is viable for all content, he's just not particularly good at anything.

I have posted multiple topics, and commented in dozens more, about the issues with Atlas' kit and what a potential rework could/should be. However, the issues in his kit simply don't have any relation to the feedback or why his kit isn't highly operable in arbitrations (and wouldn't be unless his abilities we fundamentally removed & replaced the abilities in question), caused by the high volume of enemies which cannot be interacted with due to the drones covering them and then detonating them.

8 hours ago, Tatann said:

Considering his tankyness, and the fact that his tankyness doesn't disappear in an instant in a Nullifier bubble, he's actually at an advantage in arbitrations compared to squishy nukes

Like every other frames, he needs to pop the drones with a gun, but he can do it with less worry

This is a pretty good point actually. I have run extended arbitrations with a particular tank build for Atlas (Umbral/Gladiator mods + Adaptation) and he does have a major tank advantage building and keeping rubble up- totally doable, though inhibited by the drones in case like the one I've raised here..

However, I do think it kind of inhibits the fun and purpose of his kit to not be able to petrify and punch stuff and build rubble more organically. I see your point, but I think ultimately his effectiveness is of Rhino's 2 and 3 and simply avoiding the nullifiers. In terms of merely being a gun carriage, I do think he is outclassed, but it is true he is not really that bad as a gun carriage, especially if heavily modded towards survivability. The issue I'm trying to raise is more so that frames like him would be more fun (and arbitrations more challenging to boot) if the drones didn't reduce him to more of a gun carriage role. Your point is true, but I don't think it is a good reason not to look at simply removing the damage from drone detonations. It simply enables his kit more while facing you with more enemies as a challenge.

Edited October 22, 2019 by ShasOBorkan

[(PSN)thegarada]

12 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Many frames can't solo Interceptions. Many frames do not work for Defense missions. Should Stalker be changed given he can show up regardless of your current loadout and doesn't respond to most/all frame abilities?

Interception cannot be soloed by any frame at higher levels anyway. It needs at least 2 players (4 ideal) and what frame you play does not matter much. Defense, you only need one player with a dome effect. And weapon load outs do not matter too much. Longer range is better in interception, but if you have 4 players it does not matter anyway. 

Arbitrations need:

1) A tanky frame.

2) Must use a frame that is not reliant on landing skill for survivability (like Mag).

3) Must use a weapon with punch through.

The problem is arbitration not "one mission type." It makes all mission types exclusionary to all but few frames and weapons. And this is not new. RPGs and MMOs figured out, 2 decades ago, that making mobs immune to damage (or a type of damage) makes it impossible to play vast majority of builds and thus stopped doing that. Why do we have to re-create the wheel and make it rectangular?

 

[Gurpgork]

9 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

the problem is that atlas is crap at a core level by design.  this has nothing to do with arbitrations.

Well, no. It's not an entirely separate issue from Arbitrations, because not only does Atlas have problems in his kit, but the conditions of Arbitrations are designed in a way that disproportionately harms his kit over other Warframes. 

It's like if there was going to be a footrace, but everyone wearing Nikes had to take their shoes off at the starting line. Maybe one of the people wearing Nikes wasn't a very fast runner to begin with, but they're going to be even slower if they have to run barefoot. 

It doesn't matter how good your abilities are if you can't use them. 

[Peter]

Please no more powercreep!

[ShasOBorkan]

23 minutes ago, Peter said:

Please no more powercreep!

You didn't read the thread.

[Tatann]

2 hours ago, ShasOBorkan said:

As I said, arbitrations are quite easy nowadays. I wouldn't expect anyone, with sufficient enough investment in the game to post regularly on the forums, to struggle with an extended run. You have been arguing against feedback which would only increase their challenge, so I'm not sure how else to interpret that. You could just improve your builds, but I expect most people running arbitrations are already at a level this change wouldn't impair them much. If your builds are fine, then it wouldn't really affect you much other than marginally increased challenge and allowing better build diversity and interactivity with enemies. This is only signalling some insecurity on your own arbitration confidence from my perspective, I'm not sure why else you are so concerned and feel the need to establish that you can beat arbitrations (who can't?).

I have posted multiple topics, and commented in dozens more, about the issues with Atlas' kit and what a potential rework could/should be. However, the issues in his kit simply don't have any relation to the feedback or why his kit isn't highly operable in arbitrations (and wouldn't be unless his abilities we fundamentally removed & replaced the abilities in question), caused by the high volume of enemies which cannot be interacted with due to the drones covering them and then detonating them.

This is a pretty good point actually. I have run extended arbitrations with a particular tank build for Atlas (Umbral/Gladiator mods + Adaptation) and he does have a major tank advantage building and keeping rubble up- totally doable, though inhibited by the drones in case like the one I've raised here..

However, I do think it kind of inhibits the fun and purpose of his kit to not be able to petrify and punch stuff and build rubble more organically. I see your point, but I think ultimately his effectiveness is of Rhino's 2 and 3 and simply avoiding the nullifiers. In terms of merely being a gun carriage, I do think he is outclassed, but it is true he is not really that bad as a gun carriage, especially if heavily modded towards survivability. The issue I'm trying to raise is more so that frames like him would be more fun (and arbitrations more challenging to boot) if the drones didn't reduce him to more of a gun carriage role. Your point is true, but I don't think it is a good reason not to look at simply removing the damage from drone detonations. It simply enables his kit more while facing you with more enemies as a challenge.

Atlas can be a gun carrier, but also a melee carrier. Some people slap a melee on him just as a stat stick (no speed, no range) for his 1, but I prefer to get a useful one. And in arbitration, a useful melee can pop a drone easily (any polearm with Primed Reach). That way I can switch between melee and guns during mission (and obviously his 1 and 3). His 4 can be useful to drop aggro from squishy allies too while they deal with the drones

Vanilla Atlas looks like a brawler so I always put fist weapons on him for RP purpose, but I find the Prime design more "generic" for a tank (even though he's wearing some kind of boxer bathrobe) so I have no trouble equipping any melee on him (especially long ranged considering his size)

[ShasOBorkan]

1 hour ago, Tatann said:

Atlas can be a gun carrier, but also a melee carrier. Some people slap a melee on him just as a stat stick (no speed, no range) for his 1, but I prefer to get a useful one. And in arbitration, a useful melee can pop a drone easily (any polearm with Primed Reach). That way I can switch between melee and guns during mission (and obviously his 1 and 3). His 4 can be useful to drop aggro from squishy allies too while they deal with the drones

Vanilla Atlas looks like a brawler so I always put fist weapons on him for RP purpose, but I find the Prime design more "generic" for a tank (even though he's wearing some kind of boxer bathrobe) so I have no trouble equipping any melee on him (especially long ranged considering his size)

This is all true, I use Atlas in these ways a lot. Though, in this thread, my particular feedback was about the negative impact of the damage of arbitration drones detonating insofar as they both make the mode easier and impair the fun/utility of kits like Atlas', so it isn't quite related.

[Klokwerkaos]

4 hours ago, ShasOBorkan said:

As I said, arbitrations are quite easy nowadays. I wouldn't expect anyone, with sufficient enough investment in the game to post regularly on the forums, to struggle with an extended run. You have been arguing against feedback which would only increase their challenge, so I'm not sure how else to interpret that. You could just improve your builds, but I expect most people running arbitrations are already at a level this change wouldn't impair them much. If your builds are fine, then it wouldn't really affect you much other than marginally increased challenge and allowing better build diversity and interactivity with enemies. This is only signalling some insecurity on your own arbitration confidence from my perspective, I'm not sure why else you are so concerned and feel the need to establish that you can beat arbitrations (who can't?).

dude I ran three and a half hours when there was no death and left because i was hungry, it's not my failure to understand how to build a frame.  You're projecting an inadequacy on me hear and I'm not sure if it's to intentionally attempt to discredit me, or if you just don't realize you're doing it because you can't see how someone would disagree with your take on things.  either way, please stop that behavior, I'm not here to justify myself.  if there's an actual point where credentials matter about e-peen measuring in warframe, there's a good chance I meet and exceed it, but that's irrelevant because ideas need to stand on their own merits.

4 hours ago, ShasOBorkan said:

I have posted multiple topics, and commented in dozens more, about the issues with Atlas' kit and what a potential rework could/should be. However, the issues in his kit simply don't have any relation to the feedback or why his kit isn't highly operable in arbitrations (and wouldn't be unless his abilities we fundamentally removed & replaced the abilities in question), caused by the high volume of enemies which cannot be interacted with due to the drones covering them and then detonating them.

literally all frames deal with this.

 

4 hours ago, ShasOBorkan said:

However, I do think it kind of inhibits the fun and purpose of his kit to not be able to petrify and punch stuff and build rubble more organically. I see your point, but I think ultimately his effectiveness is of Rhino's 2 and 3 and simply avoiding the nullifiers.

I don't like this.  someone provided you with a viable solution, but you don't want it.  that's more or less irrelevant.  the point is that he is viable and different frames have different things they excel at.

4 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Interception cannot be soloed by any frame at higher levels anyway.

this is highly innaccurate and you don't know what you're talking about. ivara can solo interceptions indefinitely.

3 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

Well, no. It's not an entirely separate issue from Arbitrations, because not only does Atlas have problems in his kit, but the conditions of Arbitrations are designed in a way that disproportionately harms his kit over other Warframes. 

It's like if there was going to be a footrace, but everyone wearing Nikes had to take their shoes off at the starting line. Maybe one of the people wearing Nikes wasn't a very fast runner to begin with, but they're going to be even slower if they have to run barefoot. 

It doesn't matter how good your abilities are if you can't use them. 

then stop bringing atlas to do things he shouldn't be doing.
like i said, atlas is crap, and if you choose to take him to an arb, you're intentionally gimping yourself and you have no one but yourself to blame.  I understand your analogy, but it doesn't hold up for a few reasons.  1) not everyone has shoes, 2) life isn't fair 3) in this game you have to make a choice to decide to not have shoes going into it.  that's on you at that point.  It's adult personal responsibility, you get to own your choice.  You can play whatever you want, but not all warframes are created equal, and while atlas is "fine" for completing content, he lags behind so far from other frames that it makes him flat out suck by comparison, and you have the right to choose that for yourself, but no sympathy if you do, because nobody is forcing you to take off your nikes, you're choosing to wear them with the full knowledge that it's a suboptimal choice.

5 hours ago, zhellon said:

Mesa also crap, judging by your logic.

logic doesn't follow.  first, range is a massive advantage in combat.  second, if you know how to use mesa's 4 properly you can use it in motion by jump casting, allowing for increased mobility and negating the down side.  second, it's not single target, it's single rapid succession targets.  3rd, it's not a one shot, it's a many shot.  4th, mesa actually has places in the game where she's either a top tier or extremely viable choice where atlas is kinda eyeore-ing his way through the whole game.  Mesa is absolutely not a side by side comparison to atlas because mechanically she's very distinctly world's apart from atlas. 

that said, I don't think mesa is that great personally, she's just highly accessible to newer players because aimbot fixes a lot of problems for unskilled players and any idiot can look up on youtube how to mod her.  the only time I pull her out of the closet is if she's requested for a particular squad for index runs.  I'd rather have frames that are better suited to whatever content, or in cases where it doesn't matter, my go to guy, but that's a personal choice.  

[ShasOBorkan]

7 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

dude I ran three and a half hours when there was no death and left because i was hungry, it's not my failure to understand how to build a frame.  You're projecting an inadequacy on me hear and I'm not sure if it's to intentionally attempt to discredit me, or if you just don't realize you're doing it because you can't see how someone would disagree with your take on things.  either way, please stop that behavior, I'm not here to justify myself.  if there's an actual point where credentials matter about e-peen measuring in warframe, there's a good chance I meet and exceed it, but that's irrelevant because ideas need to stand on their own merits.

Is this tongue-in-cheek..? The argument for not removing drone detonation damage is simply to not increase the challenge- I can see that disagreement, but I have said earlier I think this would be a "agree to disagree" scenario, because I just don't see the extra challenge as a problem (again, arbitrations are too easy). If your perspective runs up against mine, that's fine, but since you are looking to keep arbitrations less challenging it led me to think you may face certain challenges in the mode that most don't.

At this point I'm not sure if you are just frustrated and not communicating clearly, or you are struggling to really understand and interface with the game mode/OP and that's causing your inability to understand the feedback here. I'm sure you are very good at Warframe and arbitrations, however if it is the mechanics that are tripping you up when users like myself and @Gurpgork bring up inconsistencies you could always retry those endurance runs with a focus to watching how the drones interact with mobs and test multiple frames (variety is fun! And any frame, including Atlas, can still pretty easily do a long run in arbitrations). It sounds like you haven't expanded or experimented within the mode beyond a lot of playtime aimed towards a specific or repetitive style/perspective, or are misunderstanding some of the objectives of the mode's implementation.

There are resources to help facilitate this understanding, so that you might be able to get where we are coming from and respond in a way that correlates to the feedback. To understand the objectives of the game mode, you can always visit the arbitrations page on the wiki. If it was the functionality of the shield drones, you can read that here.

[Klokwerkaos]

15 minutes ago, ShasOBorkan said:

snip

I understand you're trying to be helpful, but I don't know that you understand that your perspective isn't perfect and to be agreed to by everyone.

for example drone destruction becomes an effective tool to knockdown enemies at high level play.  the thing where it nukes them is only really relevant at the first 40 minutes or so when there is no challenge to be had anyway.

i get what you're saying, i just disagree fundamentally that it should be changed for the reasons you have proposed.  they are working as intended and everyone has to deal with that equally.

I'm not against change, and if you have an idea with solid reasoning I'm all open to hearing it, but it's not my failure to grasp the basics of the mode as listed on the wiki, I assure you.  I'm not sure if you're condescending here on purpose, but the thing is, I get it.  I hear you and see you.  I just don't think your position holds water.  the problem with atlas in arbitrations is atlas, not arbitrations.  arbitrations don't make atlas impotent, atlas is already impotent and putting him arbs just exacerbates this (which is the same thing you said, you just want something different than what i want) what you're proposing doesn't actually make them harder either, even with proposed melee changes on the horizon.  all it does is change the loop to serve your personal atlas fantasy, and that's not a good enough reason to change something on it's own, and frankly there are reasons why that design choice and intention was made that I'm not sure you have all the information about.

what you're proposing caters to your specific desires and that's about it.

I fully understand the words you are communicating, I'm saying it's short sighted and unnecessary and doesn't address the root problem, which is that atlas blows chunks.  he doesn't explicitly "need a rework" but he sure could use one to not lag so far behind.

the thing is, you can make that choice, you can choose to play however you want, and grab your atlas and seer with no catalyst installed, but don't be surprised when that doesn't work out very well for you.

the thing is, you can't have your cake and eat it too.  either you learn to work with the systems in the game which are universally fair to all players as they all have the same opportunities starting from the moment they log in the first time, or you choose to do whatever you feel like, and that's a valid way to play, but it has consequences to choose to do that.  your choices have consequences.  your choices have consequences.  your choices have consequences.  I hope that sinks in.

you can't intentionally choose sub optimal gear in a game where not all gear is created equal and expect it to perform as well as top tier gear.  that's not how this works, and what you choose for your load outs is YOUR CHOICE.  And your good time is your own adult personal responsibility to take care of.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[ShasOBorkan]

1 minute ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I understand you're trying to be helpful, but I don't know that you understand that your perspective isn't perfect and to be agreed to by everyone.

for example drone destruction becomes an effective tool to knockdown enemies at high level play.  the thing where it nukes them is only really relevant at the first 40 minutes or so when there is no challenge to be had anyway.

i get what you're saying, i just disagree fundamentally that it should be changed for the reasons you have proposed.  they are working as intended and everyone has to deal with that equally.

Okay but this is why I think we are speaking past each other... your example is that "the drones become an effective tool[...]," perhaps you can explain how removing that facilitates this later comment:

2 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

what you're proposing doesn't actually make them harder either,

As far as I can understand what you're saying... removing the damage can only be said to increase the challenge of the mode, given your example. Your example is to state they are a tool you use to be effective in the mode, which implicitly concedes that removing the tool increases the challenge (as you have one less tool)... but you're insisting this is a personal wish fulfillment feedback thread for Atlas- not entirely untrue, but it's become really the less valuable point in the feedback. We can make arbitrations more fun for more frames/players while also adding challenge! As one other user was complaining about power creep. Do you see where I am coming from?

Perhaps it was my mistake with how I framed the OP, but the feedback is that frames like Atlas suffer from this functionality, and that the game mode would be more fun and challenging across all frames  if this admittedly-atlas-unrelated change were implemented. It was just top of mind because I do personally like Atlas and his prime just came out, but it was true before his prime release and is also true of frames like Garuda or even Saryn (as Saryn's effectiveness relies on that interactivity with trash mobs).

9 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I'm saying it's short sighted and unnecessary and doesn't address the root problem, which is that atlas blows chunks.

I suppose it is true they are unnecessary, but they would be nice and don't offer a serious downside unless we're struggling with the challenge of arbitrations (which I thinkwe all agree we're not). Also, replacing Atlas with Saryn could work in the context of this feedback thread, and nobody would reduce it to "Saryn blows chunks," since she doesn't. Does that clarify the point?

 

Further:

11 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

the thing is, you can't have your cake and eat it too.  either you learn to work with the systems in the game which are universally fair to all players as they all have the same opportunities starting from the moment they log in the first time

This point is disarming all feedback in all cases with the exception of bug fixes. If this is what's really motivating the disagreement... I think you're in the wrong place. This is a feedback forum, whereas this would be a valid argument against all feedback for any changes of any sort.