Radial Javelin Rework

[AlphaRyuuxx]

Post heavily inspired by https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1005384-excalibur-radial-javelin-rework/ definitely check the thread out

This ability sucks. I don't think anyone will deny that it is the worst of Excal's abilities that doesn't offer anything that his other abilities don't already cover. AOE 'damage'(if you can even call it what it outputs as damage)? EB has that covered and even slash dash can utilizes EB waves and can at least give him invincibility frames. CC? His blind costs less energy, has the same range, and opens them up to finisher damage. The only point this ability has is nuking level 20-30 ish enemies.

Seeing as the only way to fix this ability would be to buff it's damage to absurd levels which would turn Excal into a nuke frame like the old days on draco which I'm sure DE doesn't want, my suggestion would be to turn it into something that Excal desperately needs the most, a real defensive tool. As of now, Excal's only actual way of surviving higher level enemies is spamming blind and spamming life strike or healing return. And with life strike being reworked to only work on heavy attacks, it might not even work on EB unless you can perform heavy attacks without combo at all.

Here are two takes on the idea, inspired by the thread posted above with some personal changes.

Radial Scabbard: Sheath the exalted blade into the ground becoming invulnerable and locking Excal into place, begin siphoning health from enemies. Gain damage reduction based on a percentage on how much health was taken. After finishing the channel, unleash javelins for each enemy within range. Maybe have javelin damage scale off of how much health was taken etc

or

Sheath the exalted blade into the ground becoming invulnerable and locking Excal into place, begin siphoning strength from enemies giving damage reduction, with the more enemies in range/being siphoned increases the rate the damage reduction is gained. After the channel finishes, unleash radial javelins for each enemy in range. Maybe have javelin damage scale off of how fast the damage reduction was gained

The "locking Excal into place" might be bad because of how important mobility is in warframe and is mostly just a motif for the whole sword in the stone shtick. But game play should always take priority over aesthetics. So unless the ability is fast, as in it takes a couple seconds to gain said buffs/effects, it might be best to have either Excal hold his sword in front of him or have his sword float in front of him. Limiting his movement but not locking him into place. 

I know that these ideas are extremely similar to Wukong's defy, and that's because.... it pretty much is. I really like the way defy works. Giving Wukong a defensive tool that isn't just a press one button and gain armor/DR like a bunch of other frames.

Or maybe just have the ability work exactly like Wukong's defy, where instead of draining enemies, it just taunts them and the amount of damage taken converts to Damage reduction and the javelins' damage are based off of the damage taken.

 

EDIT (1/16/2020): Since this post is from a little while back, I've had time to think and think of another idea for a replacement for radial javelin. Essentially a combination between nezha's warding halo and gara's splinter storm.

Activate to surround excalibur in rotating swords, become invulnerable for 2 seconds and absorb damage adding onto a base amount health value of the swords. Grants 60% damage reduction(flat value, does not increase with power strength). Tap to fire blades in an omnidirectional attack, or hold to fire in a straight line with increased damage. If slash dash is used with his 3 activated, increase slash dash damage and increase the amount of combo it gains. Firing swords takes blind/stealth multiplier into consideration, and activating EB rotates blades outwards dealing slash damage and building combo within 1-2 meteres. 

or

Become surrounded by swords gaining 20% DR for X seconds. Killing enemies add 5% DR, capping at 60%. When DR is maxed, tap the ability again to deal slash damage to all enemies within X meters, consuming all DR but turning Excalibur invisible for 10 seconds. Using slash dash with 3 activated increases damage and combo gain. AOE slash damage takes into account stealth multiplier from blind. Killing with Exalted Blade increases the amount of DR gained per kill and rotates them outwards to deal slash damage within 1-2 meters.

Edited January 17, 2020 by AlphaRyuuxx

[Uhkretor]

... Or, or, or...

 

... Make the Radial Javelin's damage be affected by Exalted Blade... And, if we're going to mention Radial Javelin, I suppose Slash Dash requires the same Synergy... After all, EB is used on those two skills, otherwise it would use our Melee weapon instead.

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

37 minutes ago, AlphaRyuuxx said:

Post heavily inspired by https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1005384-excalibur-radial-javelin-rework/ definitely check the thread out

This ability sucks. I don't think anyone will deny that it is the worst of Excal's abilities that doesn't offer anything that his other abilities don't already cover. AOE 'damage'(if you can even call it what it outputs as damage)? EB has that covered and even slash dash can utilizes EB waves and can at least give him invincibility frames. CC? His blind costs less energy, has the same range, and opens them up to finisher damage. The only point this ability has is nuking level 20-30 ish enemies.

Seeing as the only way to fix this ability would be to buff it's damage to absurd levels which would turn Excal into a nuke frame like the old days on draco which I'm sure DE doesn't want, my suggestion would be to turn it into something that Excal desperately needs the most, a real defensive tool. As of now, Excal's only actual way of surviving higher level enemies is spamming blind and spamming life strike or healing return. And with life strike being reworked to only work on heavy attacks, it might not even work on EB unless you can perform heavy attacks without combo at all.

Here are two takes on the idea, inspired by the thread posted above with some personal changes.

Radial Scabbard: Sheath the exalted blade into the ground becoming invulnerable and locking Excal into place, begin siphoning health from enemies. Gain damage reduction based on a percentage on how much health was taken. After finishing the channel, unleash javelins for each enemy within range. Maybe have javelin damage scale off of how much health was taken etc

or

Sheath the exalted blade into the ground becoming invulnerable and locking Excal into place, begin siphoning strength from enemies giving damage reduction, with the more enemies in range/being siphoned increases the rate the damage reduction is gained. After the channel finishes, unleash radial javelins for each enemy in range. Maybe have javelin damage scale off of how fast the damage reduction was gained

The "locking Excal into place" might be bad because of how important mobility is in warframe and is mostly just a motif for the whole sword in the stone shtick. But game play should always take priority over aesthetics. So unless the ability is fast, as in it takes a couple seconds to gain said buffs/effects, it might be best to have either Excal hold his sword in front of him or have his sword float in front of him. Limiting his movement but not locking him into place. 

I know that these ideas are extremely similar to Wukong's defy, and that's because.... it pretty much is. I really like the way defy works. Giving Wukong a defensive tool that isn't just a press one button and gain armor/DR like a bunch of other frames.

Or maybe just have the ability work exactly like Wukong's defy, where instead of draining enemies, it just taunts them and the amount of damage taken converts to Damage reduction and the javelins' damage are based off of the damage taken.

Honestly my suggestion would be to allow it to remove armor from enemies based on power strength. Like 160 would remove armor 80%. High level enemies would become much easier to take out that way in my opinion. Maybe make radial javelin be able to do finisher damage to blind/unalerted enemies, to create a sort of synergy with his blind. Low level players would be able to reduce the enemy armor so that a primarily slash exalted blade would be able to do more damage straight to their health. 
 

Either way, Excalibur does need a little buff to be up to other frames’ level. I use surging dash with 260% power strength, combo duration, and blood rush to do red crits. I use gladiator mods in order for exalted blade to do orange crits. Blind is used for super tough enemies like Nox. Duration ain’t that high but high enough for 1-2 super tough enemies. 

Also be nice if Prime Reach made his blade much longer. Like noticeably longer. Close the length of a galantine. while range mods like stretch made the slash beams wider. Also I feel like they need to give him better combos with EB cause just slashing left, right, up, and down nonstop is kind of boring. 
 

But this is just my opinion. 

[AlphaRyuuxx]

1 hour ago, Uhkretor said:

... Or, or, or...

 

... Make the Radial Javelin's damage be affected by Exalted Blade... And, if we're going to mention Radial Javelin, I suppose Slash Dash requires the same Synergy... After all, EB is used on those two skills, otherwise it would use our Melee weapon instead.

The purpose of the post is to point out 2 things. 1. that Excal faces a big survivability issue when not spamming cc and even with EB+life strike can drop dead fast and life strike might even be reliable anymore with the melee changes coming soon. and 2. radial javelin being a really bad ability. So kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Fix his survivability issue while also making radial javelin a good utility ability. Excal doesn't need more damage

Edited October 21, 2019 by AlphaRyuuxx

[Uhkretor]

... I don't see how using Exalted Blade's base damage to improve both his Slash Dash and Radial Javelin would turn Excal into a nuke... After all, using his Exalted Blade momentarily during those two skills (which he does) and not using any of its stats is a waste.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Uhkretor

[Zebiko]

I support any ability change that adds heals to Excalibur's kit. He needs it. I don't like the current melee healing atm, and might be worse after the melee update, as OP said. 

[AlphaRyuuxx]

20 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... I don't see how using Exalted Blade's base damage to improve both his Slash Dash and Radial Javelin would turn Excal into a nuke... After all, using his Exalted Blade momentarily during those two skills (which he does) and not using any of its stats is a waste.

I never said anything about adding EB's base damage to his 1 and 3 would make him a nuke. I said that in order for his 3 to even be useful in the first place it would have to be akin to that of a nuke frame's ability

But yes adding EB's base damage to improve slash dash would be nice because the ability also serves as a mobility tool and gives him invincibility frames. Adding EB's base damage to javelin wouldn't help at all as the ability itself is useless. The only real thing the ability offers is CC which i stated before, is already covered by his blind. And even if the damage would be buffed to respectable damage. Excal doesn't need more damage. He needs survivability 

Edited October 21, 2019 by AlphaRyuuxx

[Uhkretor]

... My Excal doesn't need survivability, since I can reach lvl250+ enemies with it on my own... Your Excal, however, is a different matter since its different than mine.

 

Before considering your ideas, which aren't bad ones in case you're assuming that I'm plummeting them underground, DE needs to have those abilities have damage synergy with its Exalted weapon, since it's actively used for those two abilities. It won't turn him into a nuke IF they consider base damage only (since its a momentary use), leaving its full power for when the user brings out the Exalted Blade directly. Only then can we think about what else could complement them both, especially Radial Javelin.

[AlphaRyuuxx]

17 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... My Excal doesn't need survivability, since I can reach lvl250+ enemies with it on my own... Your Excal, however, is a different matter since its different than mine.

 

Before considering your ideas, which aren't bad ones in case you're assuming that I'm plummeting them underground, DE needs to have those abilities have damage synergy with its Exalted weapon, since it's actively used for those two abilities. It won't turn him into a nuke IF they consider base damage only (since its a momentary use), leaving its full power for when the user brings out the Exalted Blade directly. Only then can we think about what else could complement them both, especially Radial Javelin.

 

Having the exalted blade out during his 3 is purely aesthetics. They could easily have him place his hand on the ground and summon said swords/javelins. But they had him use EB cuz of the sword in the stone motif. But still regardless of him being a nuke or not his 3 holds no purpose in his kit. The damage is unnecessary/weak, and the cc is outclassed by his 2. Even if the damage was respectable, what purpose would it serve when his entire kit is oriented around EB? Might as well turn it into an ability that can benefit a melee frame like him, ie a defensive tool

Edited October 21, 2019 by AlphaRyuuxx
Grammer

[Midas]

Radial javelin just got an augment rework that now cubes your power strength with exalted blade active! Try it out!

[AlphaRyuuxx]

2 minutes ago, Midas said:

Radial javelin just got an augment rework that now cubes your power strength with exalted blade active! Try it out!

The thing is, EB doesn't need more power. He needs more reliable survivability that isn't spam blind. If the augment for his 3 maybe made it so depending on how many enemies he hit he got DR up to a cap, then yeah that augment would definitely be worth using along with chromatic blade

[Uhkretor]

13 minutes ago, AlphaRyuuxx said:

EB doesn't need more power.

And it doesn't. Slash Dash and Radial Javelin do...

 

Also, what exactly is "survivability" for you? Perhaps explaining that would be a bit more helpful for everyone else.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Uhkretor

[AlphaRyuuxx]

19 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

And it doesn't. Slash Dash and Radial Javelin do...

 

Also, what exactly is "survivability" for you? Perhaps explaining that would be a bit more helpful for everyone else.

The only thing slash dash needs is to have its scaling of melee mods to always be off of exalted blade. Because with EB equipped slash dash actually does a very good amount of damage. And the reason I'm wanting Javelin to be reworked/replaced and not slash dash is because slash dash has other purposes than just being a damage tool, that being mobility and invincibility frames. Javelin if buffed doesn't serve a purpose aside from giving Excal more damage which he doesn't need.

Survivability for me is a frame having a defensive ability or tool that helps keep them alive(cc to me doesn't count). Almost every other frame with an exalted weapon has one and some who don't. Baruuk has a 90% DR and even more with the DR from his 4.  Garuda (wiki says her claws are exalted) has her blood shrines. Hildryn can steal shields and has shield gating. Ivara has invisibility. Mesa has a 95% DR. Titania has evasion along with her 3's enemies accuracy reduction. Valkyr turns invincible and warcry also gives her an armor buff along with reducing enemy attack speed. And Wukong has defy giving him 1500 which was said to be equivalent to around 80% DR and his cloud walking giving him insane healing.

Edited October 21, 2019 by AlphaRyuuxx

[Uhkretor]

6 minutes ago, AlphaRyuuxx said:

Survivability for me is a frame having a defensive ability or tool that helps keep them alive(cc to me doesn't count). Almost every other frame with an exalted weapon has one and some who don't. Baruuk has a 90% DR and even more with the DR from his 4.  Garuda (wiki says her claws are exalted) has her blood shrines. Hildryn can steal shields and has shield gating. Ivara has invisibility. Mesa has a 95% DR. Titania has evasion along with her 3's enemies accuracy reduction. Valkyr turns invincible and warcry also gives her an armor buff along with reducing enemy attack speed. And Wukong has defy giving him 1500 which was said to be equivalent to around 80% DR and his cloud walking giving him insane healing.

So... a Damage Sink?

 

Dude, that's exactly what Excal isn't. Excal's survivability bases itself on your ability to actively dodge and/or blocking fire and/or other attacks, not taking it. No wonder you're suggesting those changes to Radial Javelin...

Edited October 21, 2019 by Uhkretor

[AlphaRyuuxx]

2 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

So... a Damage Sink?

 

Dude, that's exactly what Excal isn't.

I'm not asking to make him into a tank who can stand there and soak up everything like inaros, chroma, rhino, etc. I want Excal to have an ability that can benefit a melee frame like him and reworking an ability that has no use in his kit and is borderline useless to fit that need sounds appropriate. Like is there anything wrong with him having some form of damage mitigation? Its not like its a balancing thing. Mesa outputs more damage than Excal and has better survivability than him. Wukong is pretty much a better Excal, he has far superior mobility that heals him, an exalted weapon that is comparable to EB since it can build combo and has defy to help keep him alive, and that's not even mentioning his clone. The only thing that differs Excal from Wukong aside from aesthetics is having a very good cc in his blind. But even then Wukong's 2 also opens enemies to finishers. It's not like I'm trying to S#&$ on Excal or anything, I like him a lot more than Wukong since sword play just appeals to me more. But still, I don't see how there would be a problem in giving Excal a defensive tool. 

 

[PsiWarp]

Radial Javelin is a short lasting and target limited Radial Blind without the melee finisher prompts. It's certainly not worth the energy.

But it's not unsalvageable. It doesn't need to be an AoE nuke with melee mods in the mix, Devs wanna avoid that. We can work with its target limit by adding synergies and an innate function.

• Radial Javelin now marks struck enemies with energy swords that last until used.
• Hold 3 with javelins active to pull marked enemies in toward Excalibur, using up the javelins and inflicting a second instance of damage.
• Slash Dash cast on marked enemies causes Excalibur to strike all marked enemies from nearest to farthest. Jump or quick melee to stop where you want.
• Blinded and marked enemies causes Slash Dash to deal melee finisher damage.

[Kaggelos]

On 2019-10-21 at 3:57 AM, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

Also I feel like they need to give him better combos with EB cause just slashing left, right, up, and down nonstop is kind of boring. 

I've made posts in the past about this exact issue with Excal's EB.Useful, but boring. Normal attacks would be regular melee, and I'd Getsuga Tenshou'd the S#&$ out of his charge attacks.

Just focus on Excal's section if you're interested ^^

[Teridax68]

How about the following:

• Radial Javelin counts as a melee attack, benefits from Exalted Blade's melee mods, and can trigger finisher damage.
• Radial Javelin consumes Excalibur's melee combo counter to multiply its damage by a proportionate amount.

So the ability's mode of usage would be the exact same, except it would be allowed to scale by building off of Excalibur's melee prowess: the gameplay loop would therefore be to build up the melee combo counter via Excalibur's attacks (and at this point Exalted Wave's waves should probably contribute), then produce a climactic finish by expending that counter like a Melee 3.0 heavy attack, and deal massive damage to enemies all around. Additionally, changing Radial Javelin's swords to count as melee attacks means Excalibur would be able to use that ability for stealth, as well as combo it with Radial Blind to finish off crowds of enemies.

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

5 hours ago, Kaggelos said:

I've made posts in the past about this exact issue with Excal's EB.Useful, but boring. Normal attacks would be regular melee, and I'd Getsuga Tenshou'd the S#&$ out of his charge attacks.

Just focus on Excal's section if you're interested ^^

Glad I’m not the only one who says Getsuga Tenshou. Lol. Even made my energy black one time. But it would be nice if a charge swing could send a wider and more powerful energy blade. Kind of hate that his slide makes him do radial blind/howl. Makes it difficult to use. I’d rather just use his second ability. But this current set-up makes his exalted blade very annoying to use. Just throws me off every time I pull EB out. 

[AlphaRyuuxx]

On 2019-10-23 at 5:54 PM, Teridax68 said:

How about the following:

• Radial Javelin counts as a melee attack, benefits from Exalted Blade's melee mods, and can trigger finisher damage.
• Radial Javelin consumes Excalibur's melee combo counter to multiply its damage by a proportionate amount.

So the ability's mode of usage would be the exact same, except it would be allowed to scale by building off of Excalibur's melee prowess: the gameplay loop would therefore be to build up the melee combo counter via Excalibur's attacks (and at this point Exalted Wave's waves should probably contribute), then produce a climactic finish by expending that counter like a Melee 3.0 heavy attack, and deal massive damage to enemies all around. Additionally, changing Radial Javelin's swords to count as melee attacks means Excalibur would be able to use that ability for stealth, as well as combo it with Radial Blind to finish off crowds of enemies.

I mean i've said it once and I'll say it again, Excal doesn't need more damage. Yes having RJ have more synergy with EB would be nice but in my opinion Excal really needs more survival tools not a semi-nuke tool/ability.

[Yunjuwo]

I've played the game for about two years now, been an excalibur main the whole time, used him everyday in quite literally every piece of content in the game, done countless calculations on his stats, and experimented with maybe a dozen different builds.

Even so, you don't even need to match 10% of my excal fetish to know that the OP is right; radial javelin needs to be reworked into something defensive.

For anyone who's new/clueless to our resident poster boy, here's why RJ needs to go:

Radial javelin is basically radial blind except worse in every way. cc is not survivability, it is support, two very different things, and cc's declining favoritism is not just because of the rising dps meta rave, it's also due to the increasing releases of new cc-immune enemies.

Excal already has his 4 for dmg and his 2 if you need even more. What he needs now is defense so that he can utilize his already-incredible offense consistently at higher levels. Great armor? Sure, but it shreds quick at higher levels. Radial Blind? We just talked about the increasing releases of cc-immune enemies; even so, there are holes in radial blind spamming. Dodge? Warframe's enemies have some of the jankiest movements/pathing in videogame (only amplified worse when playing with a host with poor connection), and their firing at you can only be described as a 3D bullet hell--you WILL get hit, promise.

 

Best defense is a good offense. Best offense is a good defense.

[AlphaRyuuxx]

11 hours ago, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

I've played the game for about two years now, been an excalibur main the whole time, used him everyday in quite literally every piece of content in the game, done countless calculations on his stats, and experimented with maybe a dozen different builds.

Even so, you don't even need to match 10% of my excal fetish to know that the OP is right; radial javelin needs to be reworked into something defensive.

For anyone who's new/clueless to our resident poster boy, here's why RJ needs to go:

Radial javelin is basically radial blind except worse in every way. cc is not survivability, it is support, two very different things, and cc's declining favoritism is not just because of the rising dps meta rave, it's also due to the increasing releases of new cc-immune enemies.

Excal already has his 4 for dmg and his 2 if you need even more. What he needs now is defense so that he can utilize his already-incredible offense consistently at higher levels. Great armor? Sure, but it shreds quick at higher levels. Radial Blind? We just talked about the increasing releases of cc-immune enemies; even so, there are holes in radial blind spamming. Dodge? Warframe's enemies have some of the jankiest movements/pathing in videogame (only amplified worse when playing with a host with poor connection), and their firing at you can only be described as a 3D bullet hell--you WILL get hit, promise.

 

Best defense is a good offense. Best offense is a good defense.

Yeah I've mentioned it before in a different excal post but another idea I had for excal's 3 would be something akin to vergil's summoned sword from DMC

 

where the amount of blades he summons is based on strength and each blade gives him either DR or armor. AKA this is just a sword version of gara's splinter storm. This could be either duration base or health base with an augment change to make it so on kill it either restores X amount of seconds or X amount of health. Then you can either tap the ability to launch all swords in an omni directional attack, or hold and charge them before launching them in front of you. 

[Yunjuwo]

I'd honestly prefer a RJ rework not depend on duration. If you understand how excal's abilities work and what they want, you'll know that there's not really any room for duration on an (for lack of a better word)"endgame" build. It's part of the reason why no one uses Furious Javelin. Maybe have it work like nova's 1: a defense that degrades from its own weakness and not duration, but can be replenished. Hopefully the "replenish" part is done without an augment...

[AlphaRyuuxx]

18 hours ago, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

I'd honestly prefer a RJ rework not depend on duration. If you understand how excal's abilities work and what they want, you'll know that there's not really any room for duration on an (for lack of a better word)"endgame" build. It's part of the reason why no one uses Furious Javelin. Maybe have it work like nova's 1: a defense that degrades from its own weakness and not duration, but can be replenished. Hopefully the "replenish" part is done without an augment...

yeah maybe just have it function akin to nezha's warding halo. Where you get an invulnerability time, and during that it scales how much health the DR gets. And when the DR runs out you get another invulnerability phase to allow you to recast if necessary.

I dislike abilities like nova's 1 and baruuk's 3 making you lose your defensive ability over time without your control, granted at least baruuk can recast it. 

[Lone_Dude]

Another Pablo-inspired rework, huh? I'm fine with the way Excal is currently, because of the build I use, because of my playstyle and because I'm not a fan of standing in some corner and calling it an "endurance run" lmao. I'm not troubled by grineer, corpus and corrupted nullies, infested and sentients. Survivability and damage are not an issue, I use all of his abilities aside from Slash Dash.

I'm not opposed to the changes though. Excals 1 and 3 need some work done on them, certainly. And I say that as someone who prefers Furious Javelin over Chromatic Blade.

I just don't want these changes to consist of a DR-timer or an 1500 armor UI element. Too many frames have it and I already own an umbrafied Wukong. At that point you might as well just copy Furious Javelin, make it so that each enemy hit by it gives armor instead of damage, make it innate and call it a day - it will have the same amount of originality and usefulness behind it, but will require way less effort from the devs. 

The whole slamming the sword in the ground and staying immobile long enough to soak up damage feels incredibly awkward to me.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Lone_Dude