Convectrix Gimmick Lacks Fire Rate Support

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

The main gimmick of the Convectrix is its ability to converge and diverge its two separate energy beams to either make them concentrate on a singular point or perform a sweeping motion to hit multiple targets. One huge flaw with the Convectrix, and what arguably makes it as mediocre of a weapon as it is, is how slow the energy beams move. It takes too long for the beams to successfully converge for the primary fire to be worth while DPS on a single target, and the alt fire sweeping motion is too slow to be reliable crowd control. I think the Convectrix would strongly benefit from its beams being affected by Fire Rate buffs from both mods and Warframe powers such as Gauss' Redline in terms of their movement speed. This would make it much more worth while to use, at least in a synergistic nature with such Warframes or with specific Riven builds.

Another reason this is a problem though is, through using the Convectrix with Gauss, its come to my attention that because the movement speed of the beams are not affected by Fire Rate buffs of any kind (despite the actual ammo consumption and "fire rate" of the Convectrix being affected) the Convectrix ends up wasting a ton of its ammo supply when such buffs are active due to the ammo usage, DPS, and status chance being increased but not the speed of the beams. I'm aware that the mod Efficient Beams exists, but honestly I think this issue specifically shouldn't need a mod to be solved as the issue isn't the Convectrix consuming ammo in general but rather wasting obscene amounts of ammo waiting for its beams to converge or diverge when using it with the likes of Harrow, Gauss, etc. or with Fire Rate mods attached. Increased Fire Rate shouldn't negatively a weapon in a way like this in my opinion.

FYI this isn't a post about changing the function of the weapon or its gimmick inherently but adding further support for it as it currently stands. Suggesting complete overhauls would be off topic.

Edited October 21, 2019 by DawnoftheWhiteFury

[taiiat]

i would like to clarify that Fire Rate affects the beams the same way that it affects all Continuous Weapons - increasing Fire Rate makes it deal Damage faster / more Damage, and Status therefore applied faster too.
just to be clear on that part.

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

31 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i would like to clarify that Fire Rate affects the beams the same way that it affects all Continuous Weapons - increasing Fire Rate makes it deal Damage faster / more Damage, and Status therefore applied faster too.
just to be clear on that part.

This is another good reason to make this change. Since the Convectrix is a continuous weapon, adding Fire Rate buffs to affect the movement speed of its beams when preparing for a mission would also affect the overall status chance and DPS of the weapon as Fire Rate does for all continuous weapons. Thus, this would provide further incentive to add Fire Rate to the weapon in some form.

Edited October 21, 2019 by DawnoftheWhiteFury

[Uhkretor]

... I would just change the secondary fire into something that's actually effective... Hitting multiple enemies with the secondary fire for 20 minutes, hypothetically, and killing a bigger mass of enemies faster with the primary fire in less than 5 minutes its like...

... Just change the secondary fire already, its stupid.

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

4 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... I would just change the secondary fire into something that's actually effective... Hitting multiple enemies with the secondary fire for 20 minutes, hypothetically, and killing a bigger mass of enemies faster with the primary fire in less than 5 minutes its like...

... Just change the secondary fire already, its stupid.

Part of the reason why the secondary fire is so ineffective is because the beams are so slow. Adding Fire Rate functionality to the movement of the beams would at least help.

This is largely off topic though. We aren't talking about removing or changing the main gimmick of the Convectrix to something different, but rather buffing it as it currently exists. I personally like the gimmick but find it ineffective due to this particular problem.

Edited October 21, 2019 by DawnoftheWhiteFury

[Uhkretor]

Just now, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

Off topic.

... so you say. Yet, what I said describes exactly the feeling of everyone.

 

So, to make it on topic for you... You wanted the fire rate to move the weapon's arms faster, right? Unfortunately, that doesn't and most likely won't happen in the future.

Having the secondary firing method of the weapon reworked is something that's actually more likely to happen.

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

4 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... so you say. Yet, what I said describes exactly the feeling of everyone.

 

So, to make it on topic for you... You wanted the fire rate to move the weapon's arms faster, right? Unfortunately, that doesn't and most likely won't happen in the future.

Having the secondary firing method of the weapon reworked is something that's actually more likely to happen.

How do you figure, considering completely reworking the the secondary fire would take more development time and effort than simply adding Fire Rate functionality? 

Also: 

8 minutes ago, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

Part of the reason why the secondary fire is so ineffective is because the beams are so slow. Adding Fire Rate functionality to the movement of the beams would at least help.

This is largely off topic though. We aren't talking about removing or changing the main gimmick of the Convectrix to something different, but rather buffing it as it currently exists. I personally like the gimmick but find it ineffective due to this particular problem.

I would also further add that by changing the secondary fire of the weapon you would be basically removing the gimmick of the weapon entirely. Unless you have suggestions on how to change it while keeping the theme of the Convectrix and what makes it stand out, I don't see the point of the argument here. You don't offer an actual idea to replace it but are simply saying it sucks.

Edited October 21, 2019 by DawnoftheWhiteFury

[taiiat]

2 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Yet, what I said describes exactly the feeling of everyone.

i'd certainly agree there. the mechanics of the Weapon are simply designed in a clunky, overcomplicated way. they could be better, and much more useful.

 

such as i've suggested in the past for Primary Fire to start moving the Beams one direction, Alt-Fire the other direction. ideally in an oblong loop, so one mode would have the Beams touching for most of the cycle and the other separated for most of it. then making something special happen both when the Beams connect and when they are fully separated.
and the Weapon keeps shooting until it runs out of Ammo after you press either button, but you can manually cancel it firing by pressing Reload. you'd have to double tap Reload to Reload while firing but that seems like a small inconvenience for making the movement of the beams so much more useful as well as more intuitive.

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

3 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i'd certainly agree there. the mechanics of the Weapon are simply designed in a clunky, overcomplicated way. they could be better, and much more useful.

 

such as i've suggested in the past for Primary Fire to start moving the Beams one direction, Alt-Fire the other direction. ideally in an oblong loop, so one mode would have the Beams touching for most of the cycle and the other separated for most of it. then making something special happen both when the Beams connect and when they are fully separated.
and the Weapon keeps shooting until it runs out of Ammo after you press either button, but you can manually cancel it firing by pressing Reload. you'd have to double tap Reload to Reload while firing but that seems like a small inconvenience for making the movement of the beams so much more useful as well as more intuitive.

This is an actual suggestion on changing the functionality of the weapon and I approve, despite being off topic. This goes above and beyond just saying it sucks and should be changed. I do not agree with the statement of "Im describing the exact feelings of everyone" though. You do not speak for me nor anyone else, so please don't suggest that you do @Uhkretor.

Edited October 21, 2019 by DawnoftheWhiteFury

[Uhkretor]

Ok, then let me point the following to you...

... First of all, your words here

50 minutes ago, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

this in my opinion

... Right?

 

Second, this is in the~... General Discussion sub-section... SO, right now, this is a discussion topic, so, my first reply isn't off-topic. You simply don't want to discuss anything outside "fire rate mods affecting the weapon arm movement speed" which, technically speaking, cannot be affected by fire rate mods.

 

Third, as you are entitled to

50 minutes ago, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

my opinion

So am I, and any other current or upcoming participants on this topic, entitled to throw (and again quoting you)

50 minutes ago, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

my opinion

since, obviously, its on the General Discussions sub-section. So, this entire topic can be freely used to discuss anything related to the Convectrix. If this was a Feedback topic, however, it would be off-topic.

 

And lastly, I never speak for anyone other than myself. I do point out what I see from other topics related to the Convectrix, and an overwhelmingly majority shares the same feeling I pointed out before. Its secondary fire is useless, especially since you can always kill a bigger mass of enemies a lot faster with its primary fire.

 

Again, if you didn't pick it up before - Convectrix arm movement speed, technically speaking, cannot be affected by fire rate mods, which is why there's that Efficient Beams mod to be used. Those that actually main with that weapon will definitely enjoy that mod's assistance, and like others pointed out before, fire rate mods only increase the discharge speed.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Uhkretor

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

6 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Ok, then let me point the following to you...

... First of all, your words here

... Right?

 

Second, this is in the~... General Discussion sub-section... SO, right now, this is a discussion topic, so, my first reply isn't off-topic. You simply don't want to discuss anything outside "fire rate mods affecting the weapon arm movement speed" which, technically speaking, cannot be affected by fire rate mods.

 

Third, as you are entitled to

So am I, and any other current or upcoming participants on this topic, entitled to throw (and again quoting you)

since, obviously, its on the General Discussions sub-section. So, this entire topic can be freely used to discuss anything related to the Convectrix. If this was a Feedback topic, however, it would be off-topic.

 

And lastly, I never speak for anyone other than myself. I do point out what I see from other topics related to the Convectrix, and an overwhelmingly majority shares the same feeling I pointed out before. Its secondary fire is useless, especially since you can always kill a bigger mass of enemies a lot faster with its primary fire.

 

Again, if you didn't pick it up before - Convectrix arm movement speed, technically speaking, cannot be affected by fire rate mods, which is why there's that Efficient Beams mod to be used. Those that actually main with that weapon will definitely enjoy that mod's assistance, and like others pointed out before, fire rate mods only increase the discharge speed.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand the point of a Forum thread. This is an individual thread in the General Discussion section. The topic of this thread is adding Fire Rate functionality to the movement speed of the Convectrix beams as part of its currently existing function. Just because this thread exists in General Discussion doesn't mean you talk about literally anything in a thread with a specific topic. Also I'm aware of the fact it cannot be affected by Fire Rate mods. Thats the literal point of the thread. To add that functionality. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by DawnoftheWhiteFury

[Uhkretor]

1 minute ago, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

I think you fundamentally misunderstand the point of a Forum thread.

Off-topic, Convectrix unrelated.

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

1 minute ago, Uhkretor said:

Off-topic, Convectrix unrelated.

 

4 minutes ago, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

I think you fundamentally misunderstand the point of a Forum thread. This is an individual thread in the General Discussion section. The topic of this thread is adding Fire Rate functionality to the movement speed of the Convectrix beams as part of its currently existing function. Just because this thread exists in General Discussion doesn't mean you talk about literally anything in a thread with a specific topic. Also I'm aware of the fact it cannot be affected by Fire Rate mods. Thats the literal point of the thread. To add that functionality. 

 

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

 Not sure why you continued to quote "In my opinion" either as if it furthers your point. Yes, its my opinion that this change should be implemented. Just because its MY opinion doesn't mean going outside the topic of the thread is justified. If you want to make a thread about changing the functionality of the weapon itself, go ahead. Make it the topic there. Here though the topic is adding Fire Rate functionality to the weapon in its current state to improve it in its current state. Discussion about completely changing the weapon as it currently exists isn't really topical in this thread though. Its taking the discussion away from the primary topic of the thread. If you wanted to argue for a different change as opposed to my suggestion and why mine wouldn't work or whatever, that would be topical. However no one has argued against my suggestion specifically or provided an alternative without completely altering the weapon fundamentally.

This sentence here really shows that you don't seem to understand how specific threads work: "You simply don't want to discuss anything outside 'fire rate mods affecting the weapon arm movement speed' which, technically speaking, cannot be affected by fire rate mods." Won't let me quote when editing a comment for some reason.

That is literally the entire point of me making a specific thread about it. To talk about this topic specifically and to argue for adding this functionality to the weapon, which you still haven't explained why it is impossible for the mechanic to be affected by Fire Rate buffs. That is the only possible meaning behind this part of the sentence I can see at this point as it should be obvious by this point that the purpose of this thread is to argue for this functionality to be added. Please explain why this is an impossibility from a game design perspective @Uhkretor. I'm curious to hear your logic.

Edited October 21, 2019 by DawnoftheWhiteFury

[trst]

While I'm not opposed to making the beam movement scale with fire rate I don't think it is fair to not consider Efficient Beams as it does far more for the gun than fixing the downside of it's gimmick. It's really doing more than fixing the wasted ammo from the beam convergence.

Though the alt fire is pretty worthless even with the mod.

[Uhkretor]

Want my logic, eh? Then explain your logic first... Because your opening post doesn't quite show it...

 

... But do explain it extensively so that -everyone- can understand in detail...

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

1 minute ago, trst said:

While I'm not opposed to making the beam movement scale with fire rate I don't think it is fair to not consider Efficient Beams as it does far more for the gun than fixing the downside of it's gimmick. It's really doing more than fixing the wasted ammo from the beam convergence.

Though the alt fire is pretty worthless even with the mod.

As I said in the OP I think this issue specifically is one that shouldn't need a mod to fix because the ammo consumption being increased by Fire Rate buffs in of itself isn't really the issue but rather the weapon's beams being so slow that the increased Fire Rate is more of a negative on the weapon than a positive. Ontop of this, the wasting of ammo isn't the main concern but rather increasing the effectiveness of the weapon itself. Making the beams move faster via fire rate would make them far more worth while and fun to use, especially the alt fire. Efficient Beams only increases the status chance of the weapon outside of making it not waste ammo. This is nice, but it doesn't fix the overall problem it rather is a band aid in the form of a mod. It may fix the ammo problem but not the more concerning problem of effectiveness outside of a status chance buff, which can be achieved through Fire Rate buffs as well.

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

8 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Want my logic, eh? Then explain your logic first... Because your opening post doesn't quite show it...

 

... But do explain it extensively so that -everyone- can understand in detail...

How does the OP not show my logic? Fire Rate Buffs should affect the movement speed of the Convectrix beams. Faster Fire Rate = faster movement speed on Convectrix beams. Aka faster speed on convergence and divergence of the beams in primary and alt fire. I said this multiple times. What exactly isn't clear?

Meanwhile you haven't even begun to explain your logic as to exactly how or why this an impossibility. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by DawnoftheWhiteFury

[trst]

1 minute ago, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

As I said in the OP I think this issue specifically is one that shouldn't need a mod to fix because the ammo consumption being increased by Fire Rate buffs in of itself isn't really the issue but rather the weapon's beams being so slow that the increased Fire Rate is more of a negative on the weapon than a positive. Ontop of this, the wasting of ammo isn't the main concern but rather increasing the effectiveness of the weapon itself. Making the beams move faster via fire rate would make them far more worth while and fun to use, especially the alt fire. Efficient Beams only increases the status chance of the weapon outside of making it not waste ammo. This is nice, but it doesn't fix the overall problem it rather is a band aid in the form of a mod. It may fix the ammo problem but not the more concerning problem of effectiveness outside of a status chance buff, which can be achieved through Fire Rate buffs as well.

But it's more than a bandaid. The status increase lets you reach 100% with two 60/60 mods instead of four and being able to keep the weapon active during downtime keeps the damage ramping at it's maximum. It give you ammo efficiency, a free mod slot, and (technically) more damage.

Though again I'm not opposed to buffing/fixing the weapon; it has a lot of potential with it's stats. I just think you're selling Efficient Beams a bit short.

[Uhkretor]

2 minutes ago, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

Fire Rate Buffs should affect the movement speed of the Convectrix beams. Faster Fire Rate = faster movement speed on Convectrix beams.

Explain why "Faster Fire Rate = faster movement speed on Convectrix beams." instead of what it is now, which is "Faster Fire Rate = faster discharge speed of Convectrix beams".

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

Just now, trst said:

But it's more than a bandaid. The status increase lets you reach 100% with two 60/60 mods instead of four and being able to keep the weapon active during downtime keeps the damage ramping at it's maximum. It give you ammo efficiency, a free mod slot, and (technically) more damage.

Though again I'm not opposed to buffing/fixing the weapon; it has a lot of potential with it's stats. I just think you're selling Efficient Beams a bit short.

Thats fair. I may not give it enough credit, but personally I don't think the mod should be needed to fix this particular problem. I'd rather utilize the Fire Rate buff potential than use a slot for Efficient Beams, but that's just me. Like I said I don't think the ammo issue is the primary concern and isn't the main reason for the post but rather a secondary annoyance. That annoyance being that Fire Rate buffs shouldn't hinder a weapon as it does the Convectrix without Efficient Beams in my opinion.

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

9 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Explain why "Faster Fire Rate = faster movement speed on Convectrix beams." instead of what it is now, which is "Faster Fire Rate = faster discharge speed of Convectrix beams".

I already have several responses to this. I'm saying ADD the functionality of Fire Rate affecting the movement speed of the Convectrix beams on top of how Fire Rate currently affects it due to it being a continuous weapon. Aka increasing DPS and status chance. I'm saying that the beams should converge and diverge faster IN ADDITION to the existing affects of adding Fire Rate on the weapon which are, once again, increasing DPS and status chance while using more ammo per second. So once more, I am saying that the Fire Rate stat should affect the movement speed of the Convectrix beams on top of increasing overall DPS,  status chance, and ammo consumption.

 

1 hour ago, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

The main gimmick of the Convectrix is its ability to converge and diverge its two separate energy beams to either make them concentrate on a singular point or perform a sweeping motion to hit multiple targets. One huge flaw with the Convectrix, and what arguably makes it as mediocre of a weapon as it is, is how slow the energy beams move. It takes too long for the beams to successfully converge for the primary fire to be worth while DPS on a single target, and the alt fire sweeping motion is too slow to be reliable crowd control. I think the Convectrix would strongly benefit from its beams being affected by Fire Rate buffs from both mods and Warframe powers such as Gauss' Redline in terms of their movement speed. This would make it much more worth while to use, at least in a synergistic nature with such Warframes or with specific Riven builds.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

i would like to clarify that Fire Rate affects the beams the same way that it affects all Continuous Weapons - increasing Fire Rate makes it deal Damage faster / more Damage, and Status therefore applied faster too.
just to be clear on that part.

 

1 hour ago, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

Part of the reason why the secondary fire is so ineffective is because the beams are so slow. Adding Fire Rate functionality to the movement of the beams would at least help.

This is largely off topic though. We aren't talking about removing or changing the main gimmick of the Convectrix to something different, but rather buffing it as it currently exists. I personally like the gimmick but find it ineffective due to this particular problem.

 

1 hour ago, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

This is another good reason to make this change. Since the Convectrix is a continuous weapon, adding Fire Rate buffs to affect the movement speed of its beams when preparing for a mission would also affect the overall status chance and DPS of the weapon as Fire Rate does for all continuous weapons. Thus, this would provide further incentive to add Fire Rate to the weapon in some form.

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by DawnoftheWhiteFury

[Uhkretor]

1 minute ago, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

I already have several responses to this. I'm saying ADD the functionality of Fire Rate affecting the movement speed of the Convectrix beams on top of how Fire Rate currently affects it. Aka increasing DPS and status chance. I'm saying that the beams should converge and diverge faster IN ADDITION to the existing functions of Fire Rate on the weapon.

... Explain it better, and this time, without re/quoting...

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

1 minute ago, Uhkretor said:

... Explain it better, and this time, without re/quoting...

At this point if you don't understand, that's your problem. I've explained my logic well enough. The logic is there for you to read in the thread. I answered your question. If you have another specific question, feel free to ask. Otherwise, have a good night.

[Uhkretor]

Your failure to explain it better has locked you out of my logic. My logic is only available to those able to perfectly explain on a given subject, which isn't your case.

 

... From your part, I only got "I don't want to waste a mod slot for Efficient Beams, so I want the Convectrix arms to move faster with my Fire Rate mod so I can waste as little ammo as possible while discharging energy faster".

 

... I expected more from a topic that you've created. If you're so unwilling to share your logic in extensive detail with other participants, then this topic has no purpose other than ranting about the speed of the Convectrix arms not being affected by Fire Rate mods.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Uhkretor