Why we don't see Titania in "lategame" - and why the upcoming buffs won't change it much

[Sdric]

Arbitrations:

• She can't damage drones while in her 4.
• Switching to weapons that can actually damage them requires her to get out of Razorwing, which is clunky and lowers her defensive potential.
• A smooth Operator transition for critical moments isn't possible either, disabling a major defensive tool.

Kuva Flood:

• No Smeeta / pets during her 4 make her no-no.
• No smooth Operator transition anyway.

Disruption:

• No smooth Operator transition means no quick Lockdown, which makes it tough to deal with the quickly scaling bomber healthbars.
• Also no pet = no animal instinct.

 

Thus even if they buff her defensive tools (which is the locked behind the unintuitive, clunky and enemy spawn depended Tribute ability), she won't see much more play. Which is sad, I hope DE conisders here lategame QoL in addition to her stats alone.

 

UPDATE:

Titania Rework Update - Can now use Operator when using her 4.

This won't fix her 2, but it's a great addition! That increases her viability for Arbitrations and Disruption at least.

For Kuva Flood she'll still require her pet to be active during 4.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Sdric

[Andy.]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Sdric:

Disruption:

• No smooth Operator transition means no quick Lockdown, which makes it tough to deal with the quickly scaling bomber healthbars.
• Also no pet = no animal instinct.

 

Why do you need animal instinct in Disruption? And why would this only be a disruption problem?

[Sdric]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb --Q--Andy:

Why do you need animal instinct in Disruption? And why would this only be a disruption problem?

It is a general problem, but in disruption in particular as it allows you to spot enemies more quickly, meaning faster reaction time meaning faster keys, etc. etc...

[Kylo.]

No Pet in Razorwing is sorta stupid, I agree.

[Sdric]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Kylo.:

No Pet in Razorwing is sorta stupid, I agree.

Particularly as one of her Tribute buffs buffs pets... The synergy!

(Still wishing the clunky, "get in range->cast->kill->pick-up" mechanic combined with "RNG"/enemy-dependence was removed and Tribute as a whole replaced by something consistent and interesting). 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Sdric

[selig_fay]

The pet dies instantly if you die in razorwing. This is why I use Djinn. It constantly revives if I exit razorwing without a timer.

Titania has a lot more bugs and imperfections than it seems at first glance. But we get a buff tribute because most people asked for it. We got 50% DR because the train mentioned that Titania has a weak survival rate. And it's sad. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by zhellon

[Zelmen]

21 minutes ago, Sdric said:

Archwing

hehe, Now I am just picturing a really small Archwing while in her 4. OR maybe she is just in a normal archwing but really small because of her 4.

[Sdric]

Gerade eben schrieb Zelmen:

hehe, Now I am just picturing a really small Archwing while in her 4. OR maybe she is just in a normal archwing but really small because of her 4.

Whoopsie. Yea, Archwing is the birth of it - originally (still?) players were shrunk to make the maps appear larger without forcing the game to render large areas.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

She’s just a bad frame. 

[Sloan441]

32 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

She’s just a bad frame. 

You get tired of seeing this nonsense. 

She's not bad. However, she has a number of issues that devolve from her razorwing and that needs some correcting. She has great potential and is simply devastating when she's in situations where things like what the OP catalogue don't matter. 

The OP makes some good points. There are a number of mission types you simply don't take her to because interactions with her powers cause more problems than they solve. 

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Just now, Sloan441 said:

You get tired of seeing this nonsense. 

She's not bad. However, she has a number of issues that devolve from her razorwing and that needs some correcting. She has great potential and is simply devastating when she's in situations where things like what the OP catalogue don't matter. 

The OP makes some good points. There are a number of mission types you simply don't take her to because interactions with her powers cause more problems than they solve. 

 

Her issues don’t devolve from razor wing. They devolve from the fact that her other abilities consist of 2 CC abilities and array of useless buffs.

[Sloan441]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Her issues don’t devolve from razor wing. They devolve from the fact that her other abilities consist of 2 CC abilities and array of useless buffs.

Yeah, a lot of them do. 

The others aren't that critical to her functioning. I suppose it matters how DE really views her: murder pixie or group buffer. Much of the community prefers murder pixie and ignores the rest. 

Yes, the two CC powers are too close in function, but CC is pretty much a dead issue in the game in general. The buffs aren't useless, but they're way too finicky to apply and maintain. Done right--like with Wisp--they could be a much greater asset to teams. 

I like Titania a lot, but the fact is she's kind of a PitA to play. Her PA isn't too far away and she definitely needs some more attention paid to bug fixes involving Razerwing interactions at the very least. 

[Sdric]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Sloan441:

You get tired of seeing this nonsense. 

She's not bad. However, she has a number of issues that devolve from her razorwing and that needs some correcting. She has great potential and is simply devastating when she's in situations where things like what the OP catalogue don't matter. 

The OP makes some good points. There are a number of mission types you simply don't take her to because interactions with her powers cause more problems than they solve. 

 

I'd love to agree, because her 4 is really fun, you got my opvote but I still feel like he isn't wrong. Having 2 AoE CC's is redundant in most situations (her 1 being mostly only a Razorwing Blitz enabler). Her Tribute is possibly one of the worst designed and most unfun abilities. Her 3 is solid after it got bugfixed a while back, her 4 is great fun but has major QoL issues - her passive is fun as well but objectively not really powerful and her base stats are somewhat lackluster.

Overall she fulfills the criteria for being "a bad frame", that doesn't means she isn't fun though; her 4 makes her one of the most unique frames ingame.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 minute ago, Sloan441 said:

Yeah, a lot of them do. 

The others aren't that critical to her functioning. I suppose it matters how DE really views her: murder pixie or group buffer. Much of the community prefers murder pixie and ignores the rest. 

Yes, the two CC powers are too close in function, but CC is pretty much a dead issue in the game in general. The buffs aren't useless, but they're way too finicky to apply and maintain. Done right--like with Wisp--they could be a much greater asset to teams. 

......

if CC is dead then Titania shouldn’t have 2 Cc abilities. One of them needs to go.

Full Moon buffs companion damage, nobody uses pets for damage. So it’s useless.

Entangle only slows enemy movement and not their attack rate making it to worst enemy slow in the game. So it’s also useless.

Thorns provides damage reflect. So it’s garbage.

Dust is the only decent buff and it’s only because it combines with Razorwing to provide an even greater evasion buff.

to only call these buffs “finicky” is far to large of a complement.

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 minutes ago, Sdric said:

 

Overall she fulfills the criteria for being "a bad frame", that doesn't means she isn't fun though; her 4 makes her one of the most unique frames ingame.

This. I hate the fact that I can only ever give Titania crap. Because her 4 is a fun and unique ability (that’s not half bad in the Damage department). But the rest of her kit has so many problems that I only ever find myself bashing her more than complimenting her.

[selig_fay]

46 минут назад, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 сказал:

of 2 CC abilities

Titania has 4 control abilities. Spellbind, Tribute, Latern, razorfly.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

1 hour ago, Sloan441 said:

You get tired of seeing this nonsense. 

She's not bad. However, she has a number of issues that devolve from her razorwing and that needs some correcting. She has great potential and is simply devastating when she's in situations where things like what the OP catalogue don't matter. 

The OP makes some good points. There are a number of mission types you simply don't take her to because interactions with her powers cause more problems than they solve. 

 

I don't know. 2 CC's, bad buffs, bad ability interactions and a number of issues devolving from only ability she has that's considered useful.

... that sounds like the definition of a bad frame to me. That's a combination of the issues from Ember and Vauban all in one and they've been officially designated bad frames even by DE's standards. 

[Sloan441]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

I don't know. 2 CC's, bad buffs, bad ability interactions and a number of issues devolving from only ability she has that's considered useful.

... that sounds like the definition of a bad frame to me. That's a combination of the issues from Ember and Vauban all in one and they've been officially designated bad frames even by DE's standards. 

Again, it's hyperbole and does no one any good. 

The main issue with the Lantern and Speillbind is they basically do the same thing aside from a few details. Why have both? They work, but being so similar it just causes confusion and Titania should have something more useful in place of one of them, especially when CC is pretty niche these days. 

Since most Titanias spend as much time as possible in pixie form, the razorflies are fine as they are. They're a bonus; what they do is gravy. 

Screwy ability interaction is on DE. This is just something that needs corrected. I suspect the 'frame isn't played much by the community as a whole and there really should be more feedback on this. 

The buffs...I'm of two minds on this. They should be more pertinent to what warframes do and be easy to apply without a lot of fiddling or weirdness. Again, look at Wisp. This is what should be striven for on Titania. If not, then just get rid of them and do something else. 

Vaubon was never bad. His problem is he's become irrelevant. Hopefully that'll change. 

Ember has been a hot mess since introduction. Again, hopefully that'll change. 

Titania does work. She kills the hell out of stuff. The problem is she's clunky, weird, and buggy. This limits her popularity, which should be better because she is very cool. She's just hard to play well when you have to actively fight some of her abilities, including her best one. 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

45 minutes ago, Sloan441 said:

 

You basically just listed a bunch of reasons why she's bad and only countered it with "she's very cool".

Ember "does work" too. Despite having insane damage output potential she's officially bad because of many of the reasons you listed.

Vauban irrelevant = bad.

That's why they're changing them. They're not irredeemable, but they are bad. Same as Titania. With a rework she can be good too, but she'll never get there holding on to bad design. She's outdated and was mostly used for her 4th even when she was up to date.

[selig_fay]

13 часов назад, Sloan441 сказал:

I suspect the 'frame isn't played much by the community as a whole and there really should be more feedback on this.

We have a lot of feedback here. We described all its problems and bugs. But these topics just went down and never came up. And why the me seems, that DE more look on reddit, than on forum. And since people are not very good about archwing mode, you will not be able to bring the post to the top on reddit, if you do not have influence on the community. What's more, most people are convinced that Titania is OK, although most just don't play it to let the problems leak out.

Titania's problem isn't that she has bad abilities, because abilities do their job. The problem with Titania is that the mechanics of her abilities are simply not refined. She mechanics should get a lot of improvements so that players can use them. Even the same spellbind, as I wrote, can be useful if Titania can control the position of flying enemies. Collecting and moving enemies looks useless because control is useless, but at least it will be fun and useful on overlvl. And with that, you can come up with a lot of team interactions. And it's useful for razorwing because the better you fly the archwing, the faster you'll be able to collect enemies. Just the gameplay in the flying vertex. (As an example of what rework spellbind and Latern can lead to without changing the idea of using them)

The problem with DE Titania reworks fail is that they try to work with simple numbers and mechanics. They need to think about how to turn Titania's weaknesses into strengths.

[Sdric]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb zhellon:

We have a lot of feedback here. We described all its problems and bugs. But these topics just went down and never came up. And why the me seems, that DE more look on reddit, than on forum. And since people are not very good about archwing mode, you will not be able to bring the post to the top on reddit, if you do not have influence on the community. What's more, most people are convinced that Titania is OK, although most just don't play it to let the problems leak out.

Titania's problem isn't that she has bad abilities, because abilities do their job. The problem with Titania is that the mechanics of her abilities are simply not refined. She mechanics should get a lot of improvements so that players can use them. Even the same spellbind, as I wrote, can be useful if Titania can control the position of flying enemies. Collecting and moving enemies looks useless because control is useless, but at least it will be fun and useful on overlvl. And with that, you can come up with a lot of team interactions. And it's useful for razorwing because the better you fly the archwing, the faster you'll be able to collect enemies. Just the gameplay in the flying vertex. (As an example of what rework spellbind and Latern can lead to without changing the idea of using them)

The problem with DE Titania reworks fail is that they try to work with simple numbers and mechanics. They need to think about how to turn Titania's weaknesses into strengths.

About the reddit / official forums - I also posted it there and got 200+ upvotes @95% approval here. I just hope DE listenes to Titania feedback at some point... Her Dev workshop ignored essentially every single complaint about her other than vacuum - and the Aviator fix came independent from it after it has been raised literally since her release.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Sdric

[selig_fay]

2 минуты назад, Sdric сказал:

About the reddit / official forums - I also posted it there and got 200+ upvotes

here. That hasn't helped in the past. I just hope DE listenes to Titania feedback at some point... Her Dev workshok ignored essentially every single complaint about her other than vacuum - and the Aviator fix came independent from it after it has ben raised literally since her release.

Let's see what happens. But the problems you mentioned are not the only ones. I think they should completely redesign razorwing because it has too many bugs right now. At least they should fix the animations and dying pets. 

Well, I want Titania to learn how to use weapons in razorwing, because it's already possible. But that's my opinion.

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[Sdric]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb zhellon:

Let's see what happens. But the problems you mentioned are not the only ones. I think they should completely redesign razorwing because it has too many bugs right now. At least they should fix the animations and dying pets. 

Well, I want Titania to learn how to use weapons in razorwing, because it's already possible. But that's my opinion.

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I agree, she definitely has more problems, but in detail feedback has been TL;DR'd by DE at the past, thus this time around I tried to pin-point QoL issues with her "main" ability.

If there's any interest from DE's side to actually discuss her kit, I'll be the first to elaborate why her ability 2 (Tribute's) design is inherently flawed and why either her ability 3 or her ability 1 is redundant as both are substitutable AoE crowd control abilities; and how - say her ability 1 - could be replaced by something more useful, more synergistic with her 4 AND more fit for her theme (e.g. Razoflies to be send out, reduce enemy armor like Nyx's bolts, but extract either health or mana from dieing enemies in the process in spirit of her current to-be-replaced Tribute concept).

Edited October 22, 2019 by Sdric

[Andele3025]

23 hours ago, Sdric said:

(Still wishing the clunky, "get in range->cast->kill->pick-up" mechanic combined with "RNG"/enemy-dependence was removed and Tribute as a whole replaced by something consistent and interesting). 

Her 2 and 3 just need complete replacements. 1 actually has net benefits though the entire game by even in worst case scenario being steam status immunity and a 100% no requirement trigger for her 4 augment, meanwhile her 3 is in best case scenario is now finally a worse gara 3 and in the worst case scenario a superior rhino iron skin given to a enemy (tho pablo might fix that by storing damage taken instead of just making the enemy completely invul). Replacing Tribute and Lanterns effect (as the names are IMO fitting) with anything that works with the long range wasp of bullet death with on ally buffs, especially with anything that can generate more razorflies (or even better, not just generate more when the ones from razorwing are down, but also give razorflies even when not in 4) would be a godsend.

[Sdric]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Andele3025:

Her 2 and 3 just need complete replacements. 1 actually has net benefits though the entire game by even in worst case scenario being steam status immunity and a 100% no requirement trigger for her 4 augment, meanwhile her 3 is in best case scenario is now finally a worse gara 3 and in the worst case scenario a superior rhino iron skin given to a enemy (tho pablo might fix that by storing damage taken instead of just making the enemy completely invul). Replacing Tribute and Lanterns effect (as the names are IMO fitting) with anything that works with the long range wasp of bullet death with on ally buffs, especially with anything that can generate more razorflies (or even better, not just generate more when the ones from razorwing are down, but also give razorflies even when not in 4) would be a godsend.

Frankly, I'd rather fit status immunity on a reworked 2 than keeping 1 as an ability. It's just odd to bind a defensive bonus like that on an offensive ability. I'd prefer to see her 2 being reworked into a reliable buff and shifting status immunity on top of whatever it is instead of keeping the (arguably) lesser useful CC just for it's unfitting gimmick.

E.g. some kind of ability like:

• +X armor per Razorfly summoned
• + status immunity
• + reloading a part of your magazine per second into your equipped weapon (this bonus is doubled for Dex Pixia)

would be something that could work very nicely with the ability 1 I suggest above while adding a lot to Dex Pixia plus Razorwing as a whole.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Sdric