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Feedback: The reason why Conclave fails (and how to fix)


ixidron92
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Overview

Other than the game being primarily PvE orientated and Conclave being basically abandoned. The main reason conclave failed (and still fails) is a simple one: Complexity.

Let's face it. Every new weapon, every new frame adds just another thing that needs to be balanced as it interacts with all the other elements. When you take the infinite complexity of mod loadouts and full frame/weapon loadouts, the whole problem grows exponentially with every new item/frame.

That of course is an unbearable workload for the developers, which I'm guessing is why the Conclave is virtually abandoned. You can't simply add such an immense variance and expect things to work. Conclave just collapses under its own weight.

You can't apply PvE logic to PvP. It's as simple as that. NPCs don't care about balance, and they don't mind if the players one-shot 100s of them from 200m away, but that would be unacceptable in Conclave, of course. PvP is meant to be simple. The more complexity, the harder is it to manage and for players to grasp. Limitless loadouts, equipment, abilities classes and the likes make sense in PvE, but not in PvP.

If you analyze other hero/class based PvP games like Palladins, Overwatch, even their old ancestor Team Fortress. You'll see they have something in common. Variance comes with the class, primarily. Yes, each and everyone of them can have their own wiggle room, but each class has a role. Even if you're allowed to change some items, or some abilities or add your own tweaks and modifications to their statistics the primary role remains, even after tweaks.

Now, here, if every Warframe can equip every item, every mod, without restrictions, there isn't much reason to use any but the strongest class and item loadout. There is no such things as weaknesses or counters or roles. Soon, PvP becomes pointless.

Problems

Another big problem is Progression: Veterans have mods, weapons and warframes other people don't. Today, I played Conclave, no big deal. I joined. Had my pimped out Warframe, my optimized loadout and I was thrown against a pair of rank 1s with unlevelled Bratons and Excaliburs. And there I was with my ignis, my invisible, damage-reflecting Octavia, burning them to a crisp before they could even react, while shrugging off their bullets like they were insect bites. They eventually left, only to be replaced by another couple of level newbies I would again burned to cinders while they just couldn't do anything. That is simply unacceptable. That was probably one of their first experiences with PvP. Would you play PvP again if someone with vastly superior gear and experience could easily face 3v1 odds and win?

That brings me to the second biggest problem: Mobility. No one have I ever encountered PvP shooter game with such an insane 3D mobility and speed. Not even the old Quake, which already required lightning-fast reflexes and ludicrous accuracy. Even the best of the best would have problems tracking people in Warframe. The end result is that people descend into melee spam or using AoE weapons such as the Ignis or the Arca Plasmor because there is simply no way to consistently track and hit people with projectile or hit-scan weapons. Heck, even with AoE weapons it's no easy feat, and I not bad at that (for example, I got to master in Overwatch and enjoyed playing sniper in TF2).

Suggested Solution

 No one likes to hear this. No one. But there's only one way to fix this mess: Limits and restrictions.

Conclave needs a complete restart, and it needs to be a limited and small restart.

Mods should go straight out of the window. That is simply impossible to balance. Not with such class and weapon variety. There isn't even a point in trying. It's just a waste of time and resources. Don't get me wrong. Mods work in PvE (and even so, only very few of the thousand we have) because you don't really have to balance them. It doesn't really matter if they are useless or overpowered, but that's a luxury you can't have in PvP.

Warframes should be unrestricted and fully leveled up, independently of what you own or your progression. Everyone should have an even starting ground, both veterans and newcomers. Still, the starting number of should be limited to just a few. At least, until more can be fully balanced.

Warframes should be tied to specific weapon loadouts. Just like every other class based PvP shooter. That gives Warframes a role and a purpose, making them unique. More weapons with the same thematic could be eventually balanced to add more variance.

Mobility needs to be toned down. Like a lot. Enough to make people of every skill range have a chance at hitting something. Combat rolls and dodging should remain key features with some limitations, but stuff that can be used for mid-air mobility or quick changes of direction or massive traverses like double jumping, bullet jumping, aim-gliding, wall bouncing, wall riding/latching should be restricted and limited.

The new Conclave should first release with a limited starting roster. More Warframes and weapons can be added once balance is achieved. The key is to assign functional roles and release new Warframes over time.

I'm still undecided if abilities should be balanced around energy or should be instantly usable without limit but with a cooldown.

Of course, one should be able to swap Warframes in between respawns (I mean to any available, not just those we have in a loadout slot).

The classic Warframes are the best for the job because they have a clear theme associated with them. Rhino is clearly a bruiser/tank type, while Loki and Ash are assassin types, Excalibur is centered around melee/CQC combat, Trinity was designed as support, Ember and Volt as damage dealers, etc. Now, all they need is a functional weapon loadout based around their strengths and weaknesses

All those limitations will simplify PvP, making it manageable and much easier to rebalance, not to mention they'll give each Warframe a sense of purpose, role and uniqueness.

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Compiled Community suggestions

  1. Independent servers (no P2P connections).
  2. Server browser.
  3. Better promotion/advertisement (I didn't even knew Conclave existed until the War Within) and better integration with the main game.
  4. Better rewards and incentives.
  5. Loading screen and lobby tips and tricks.
  6. Training mode and shooting gallery with fast moving erratic targets and all guns unlocked.
  7. Some conclave stuff usable in PvE (I heavily, heavily, heavily disagree on this one).
  8. Archwing PvP.
  9. Operator PvP.
  10. Grineer vs Corpus PvP (Controlling grunts, not Warframes).
  11. Interception gamemode for PvP.
  12. Hold the lantern 1vsall PvP mode. Inspired by the Halloween event. 1 item (Can be a lantern, Cephalon or whatever) in the middle of the map. You earn victory points per second by holding on to it, but everyone can see your position at any moment and killing the carrier earns bonus points.

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Edited by ixidron92
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First off, I agree with the part on even starting grounds. More specifically, I think it would help a ton if Conclave had means of acquiring weapons and Warframes across the board, so that people aren't required to grind through the PvE aspect for something they might intend to use for PvP—something along those lines. It isn't like it's unprecedented: we already get 3 Warframes from Conclave.

The rest is...a questionable paradigm shift that goes far away from what Warframe is at the core.

IMO, I think the problem is that the modes available require practically perfect balancing because they all boil down to 1v1(v1v1v1...) situations. It's kind of already a problem because Warframe is largely based on a power fantasy, and forcing equipment to be properly balanced goes against that. But the power fantasy is more of a problem because the goal of equipment added to the game isn't to be perfectly fair to everything else. It isn't like weapons are balanced around some greater rock-paper-scissors situation: there's been stated a relationship between a weapon's strength and MR, so there's an upwards progression in strength that doesn't translate terribly well when it comes to proper balance.

But if you were to throw in, for example, a 1 v all mode where the one player gains the vast majority of their kit and the other players try to survive and deal damage to that one player for points, or if you make a PvPvE-styled Disruption mode, then "perfect balance" isn't as required. There's still balancing issues surrounding the mode itself - abilities probably shouldn't go through walls, some abilities might garnish more points because they don't cover a giant AoE, etc. - but there's much less hassle when it comes to balancing weapons because they don't need to be quite as exact. And, for the most part, it maintains some semblance of the power fantasy. So if a goal is to stay to Warframe's style, and I think most people would agree that should be a huge consideration, I would say something like that would be better suited.

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All PvP shooters reward skill and luck differently. The great (or not, depending on your skill) thing about conclave is that it's extremely heavy on the skill side. It's relatively rare to get a lucky kill against someone who knows how to use warframe's mobility system. Generally, this makes the mode have a steep learning curve. I think this is the reason why the mode is unpopular, because you have to try hard and try a lot, for a long time, before you start to win matches against other conclavers. Reducing mobility will just convert conclave into the more luck-based versions instead (like CoD, Destiny, etc...) where people get lucky kills all the time. So, if you don't like conclave, please don't turn it into CoD. Some of us like warframe's mobility system, which is why we (Gasp!) play warframe. 

Conclave is remarkably well balanced considering the sheer variety of weapons and frames you can use. There are outliers of course (ignis, staticor, etc...) but they can be balanced pretty easily. There are several threads with great ideas on how to do this in this forum, and these are far from an "unbearable workload" as you suggest. 

As for the mods, you realize that they are essentially all exilus-type mods right? They give things like extra mag size (with minus to reload speed), reload while holstered, etc... None of the mods give extra damage. I guarantee you that I can bring an unmodded Excalibur with an unmodded mk1-braton and beat your ignis Octavia with whatever mods you like.

Finally, I just want to mention that typically in life the best solutions come from people with experience. If my toilet backs up, I call a plumber. If my stomach hurts I call a doctor, etc... So you should know two things:

1) Your suggestions are extremely typical of those made by people why try conclave one time only. 

2) People will check your in-game profile conclave stats to see if it's worth reading your suggestions (I do this!). Feel free to come back with better suggestions when you've actually played conclave, and not just farmed new players for 10 minutes with recruit conditioning enabled.

This sounds harsh, I know, and I'm not trying to be mean. It's just... we see so many of these threads. Please, just give conclave an actual try before you tell us all how it needs to be changed - your perspective on things may change when you start anticipating people's mobility, and facing off against skilled opponents. I promise, we conclavers will listen to you when you've tried conclave, but you haven't tried it yet, not for real.

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Just remove everything that makes Warframe what it is and make it as close to every other generic shooter.

If I were in a position to have to make the choice, I'd sooner remove the mode wholesale than do this. There is nothing that connects this with Warframe except visuals. This is a worse idea than the Corpus vs. Grineer ideas because at least then you would have no expectations.

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1 hour ago, ixidron92 said:

That brings me to the second biggest problem: Mobility. No one have I ever encountered PvP shooter game with such an insane 3D mobility and speed.

Not sure but think Tribes ascend gets close or worse.  Can do 1km it look like in 1 jump and 100 meter high or so and it really fast.

But biggest problem is this game was never meant to have pvp just after a minor part of the community demanded it  they added a small map for dueling that then grew into what we have now.

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hace 39 minutos, Sevek7 dijo:

All PvP shooters reward skill and luck differently. The great (or not, depending on your skill) thing about conclave is that it's extremely heavy on the skill side. It's relatively rare to get a lucky kill against someone who knows how to use warframe's mobility system. Generally, this makes the mode have a steep learning curve. I think this is the reason why the mode is unpopular, because you have to try hard and try a lot, for a long time, before you start to win matches against other conclavers. Reducing mobility will just convert conclave into the more luck-based versions instead (like CoD, Destiny, etc...) where people get lucky kills all the time. So, if you don't like conclave, please don't turn it into CoD. Some of us like warframe's mobility system, which is why we (Gasp!) play warframe. 

Conclave is remarkably well balanced considering the sheer variety of weapons and frames you can use. There are outliers of course (ignis, staticor, etc...) but they can be balanced pretty easily. There are several threads with great ideas on how to do this in this forum, and these are far from an "unbearable workload" as you suggest. 

As for the mods, you realize that they are essentially all exilus-type mods right? They give things like extra mag size (with minus to reload speed), reload while holstered, etc... None of the mods give extra damage. I guarantee you that I can bring an unmodded Excalibur with an unmodded mk1-braton and beat your ignis Octavia with whatever mods you like.

Finally, I just want to mention that typically in life the best solutions come from people with experience. If my toilet backs up, I call a plumber. If my stomach hurts I call a doctor, etc... So you should know two things:

1) Your suggestions are extremely typical of those made by people why try conclave one time only. 

2) People will check your in-game profile conclave stats to see if it's worth reading your suggestions (I do this!). Feel free to come back with better suggestions when you've actually played conclave, and not just farmed new players for 10 minutes with recruit conditioning enabled.

This sounds harsh, I know, and I'm not trying to be mean. It's just... we see so many of these threads. Please, just give conclave an actual try before you tell us all how it needs to be changed - your perspective on things may change when you start anticipating people's mobility, and facing off against skilled opponents. I promise, we conclavers will listen to you when you've tried conclave, but you haven't tried it yet, not for real.

I think your post just made it quite clear why people play it just a few times and quit. PvP games need to be accessible to anyone, not just people with mad skills.

My profile doesn't seem to update or anything, because I'm not a silver initiate, and that is not my current icon. I play conclave (when possible, because it's a desert in the EU server and it's usually 2-3 players in a single match. I want to point out how insanely hard is to find a match. Wait times can be as long as 30 minutes just to play with another player, and the max I've ever had in a game were 4 other people).

The warframe mobility system is insane. I've never seen any shooter with something remotely close to it, let alone a popular, functional PvP shooter. Heck, not even rocket jumping with the soldier in TF2 compares to it, or even the maddening speed of Quake. You have to understand that a game that functions (or in this case a gamemode) is a game that is accessible to a wide variety of people, from the lowly unskilled casual newbie to the hardcore pro-shooter that plays tournaments for money. You can't have Conclave based around those with insane hand-eye coordination. I am accustomed to playing high mobility classes in PvP shooters, and that's actually my style and yeah, since I know how to move because I have experience from those games, I feel like cheating in conclave.

If you see people complaining about it, people quitting because of the stupidity, you can't simply defend a gamemode that fails just because a few elitists say that "it's the way it's meant to be played and shouldn't be changed and you have no right to complain until you get to our level. Git gud scrub." Sorry but that's not how the world works. Experience matters, but that doesn't mean legitimate concerns should be dismissed just because that guy is less experienced.

 

Edited by ixidron92
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I've been saying that DE need to make all weapons / warframes available to choose from in the conclave arsenal for ages now.

But don't restrict peoples weapons to what warframe they are using, that's silly. 

IMO, DE just need to disable abilities entirely and give all the warframes the same ehp (145 shields, 110 health 110 armour maybe) with 0.9 mobility, and just have unique PvP passives on each warframe. People can choose their character based on looks / the unique passive. It will be balanced, DE can adjust weapon stats based on a single amount of ehp, no need to worry about balancing abilities. Since there will be no abilities, remove No Current Leap, and just leave the current mods for adjusting mobility, so you can stay normal, be slow and tanky, or fast and weak.

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42 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

I think your post just made it quite clear why people play it just a few times and quit. PvP games need to be accessible to anyone, not just people with mad skills.

Yes, that's why I said it. It's not because it's unbalanced, not because the mobility is bad, but because it's hard. Some people like a challenge!

43 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

My profile doesn't seem to update or anything, because I'm not a silver initiate, and that is not my current icon. I play conclave (when possible, because it's a desert in the EU server and it's usually 2-3 players in a single match. I want to point out how insanely hard is to find a match. Wait times can be as long as 30 minutes just to play with another player, and the max I've ever had in a game were 4 other people).

Yeah it's been hard to find matches for me recently too. I think when the new update comes it will be easier. (Note: others have suggested a server browser which would go a long way to fixing this issue.) Also, have you tried turning off recruit conditioning?

45 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

The warframe mobility system is insane. I've never seen any shooter with something remotely close to it, let alone a popular, functional PvP shooter. Heck, not even rocket jumping with the soldier in TF2 compares to it, or even the maddening speed of Quake. You have to understand that a game that functions (or in this case a gamemode) is a game that is accessible to a wide variety of people, from the lowly unskilled casual newbie to the hardcore pro-shooter that plays tournaments for money. You can't have Conclave based around those with insane hand-eye coordination. I am accustomed to playing high mobility classes in PvP shooters, and that's actually my style and yeah, since I know how to move because I have experience from those games, I feel like cheating in conclave.

Yeah, conclave sadly isn't accessible to the majority of the playerbase due to the extremely high skill ceiling. There is of course a way to fix that - server browser again - but that idea just doesn't seem to get traction for some reason. The point is, there are simple suggestions that we should try first, before we consider radically changing the entire game-mode. Perhaps you're right, maybe we need to remove the uniqueness of warframe in order to make the PvP popular. But can we please try the other, simpler things first?

Here's an analogy, if your lamp stops working, do you try changing the lightbulb? Or do you immediately start rewiring the entire house? I'm suggesting we try changing the lightbulb first.

59 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

If you see people complaining about it, people quitting because of the stupidity, you can't simply defend a gamemode that fails just because a few elitists say that "it's the way it's meant to be played and shouldn't be changed and you have no right to complain until you get to our level. Git gud scrub." Sorry but that's not how the world works. Experience matters, but that doesn't mean legitimate concerns should be dismissed just because that guy is less experienced.

You're right, I shouldn't blindly defend the game-mode. There are several criticisms about it that are certainly valid - and you'll find those criticisms being made here in the forums by experienced conclavers. I've made feedback posts with suggestions for change as well. However, let me make another analogy here. Let's say you meet someone who just finished Vor's Prize, and has a rank 12 Mk-1 Braton with the damaged mods on. They proceed to tell you about their idea for a fun, challenging endgame mode in warframe. Their idea is that your warframe has no shields for the entire mission. Obviously, as an experienced player, you know that shields are way less useful than health at the higher level of the game. But, to a new player, shields are extremely useful. So, their idea is bad. It's not their fault, they just haven't played long enough to understand. We shouldn't beat them over the head about it, but we're also not going to take their idea seriously. So we say okay, great, nice enthusiasm, but play for a while longer and you'll come up with better ideas. Of course they might be offended that we didn't take their idea seriously, but one day they'll look back and understand why. 

The last thing you said is important: "Experience matters, but that doesn't mean legitimate concerns should be dismissed just because that guy is less experienced." Yes, experience matters, I don't ask my plumber to fix my health problems. At least not until my plumber has finished one year of med-school. Then I'll start listening a bit. And you're right, if an inexperienced person brought a legitimate concern, we would all listen. But all your concerns have been brought before. We've discussed them a hundred times. If you were the first to have suggested reduced mobility, it would have been an interesting conversation. But, conclavers have discussed this possibility. At length. Many times. So, it's not because you're less experienced, it's because we're repeating the past. 

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As a fairly regular  conclave player, I gotta say it’s not as complex as most players makes it out to be.

I mean sure, even when I entered Conclave, it seemed like a jumbled mess with players moving at hypersonic speed with unfathomable maneuverability... But with experience you will start seeing the patterns of people’s moves, and get a better handle of your movements’ strengths AND limmits (the bullet jump and roll aren’t as impervious as many make it sound).

A simple, “lighbulb change”, could be to maybe include PvP tips as people wait in the lobby. Tips that mentions stuff like “It’s easier to shoot players who are aim gliding”, or “you can combo melee with your ranged weapons” for example.

Some kind of practice mode could also be nice.

Edited by ByroSphere
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hace 12 horas, Tyreaus dijo:

First off, I agree with the part on even starting grounds. More specifically, I think it would help a ton if Conclave had means of acquiring weapons and Warframes across the board, so that people aren't required to grind through the PvE aspect for something they might intend to use for PvP—something along those lines. It isn't like it's unprecedented: we already get 3 Warframes from Conclave.

The rest is...a questionable paradigm shift that goes far away from what Warframe is at the core.

IMO, I think the problem is that the modes available require practically perfect balancing because they all boil down to 1v1(v1v1v1...) situations. It's kind of already a problem because Warframe is largely based on a power fantasy, and forcing equipment to be properly balanced goes against that. But the power fantasy is more of a problem because the goal of equipment added to the game isn't to be perfectly fair to everything else. It isn't like weapons are balanced around some greater rock-paper-scissors situation: there's been stated a relationship between a weapon's strength and MR, so there's an upwards progression in strength that doesn't translate terribly well when it comes to proper balance.

But if you were to throw in, for example, a 1 v all mode where the one player gains the vast majority of their kit and the other players try to survive and deal damage to that one player for points, or if you make a PvPvE-styled Disruption mode, then "perfect balance" isn't as required. There's still balancing issues surrounding the mode itself - abilities probably shouldn't go through walls, some abilities might garnish more points because they don't cover a giant AoE, etc. - but there's much less hassle when it comes to balancing weapons because they don't need to be quite as exact. And, for the most part, it maintains some semblance of the power fantasy. So if a goal is to stay to Warframe's style, and I think most people would agree that should be a huge consideration, I would say something like that would be better suited.

Even starting grounds with all frames, weapons and mods fully leveled up should be at the very least one step in the right direction.

A paradigm shift is what Warframe's PvP system needs. It's been proven by now it simply doesn't work. Queues are just unending, most newbies try it once, see the sorry state of it and never come back, etc.

There's a reason why I suggest this: It works. I've seen games with this kind of PvP before. They are usually PvE focused F2P game and typically, the game didn't launch with PvP. In those games, all of them, PvP fails and is abandoned - couldn't find one with functioning system - and it doesn't happen just in shooters, it happens to RPGs as well. Then, we know that PvP model fails and we also know other games have a class/hero based PvP system that works. How does it work? Restrictions. Look at World of Warcraft for example, there's just a handful of classes and spells. Sure, you can go to PvP with any gear, but that won't do you much good since there's specific PvP gear and that's the thing that functions, limiting each class to a certain role. You can take a look at Team fortress. Limited number of classes. they have a lot of different weapons, but with one a few exceptions, none of them radically alters the role of a class. Overwatch adds variance in the form of heroes, but then the restriction comes with limited weapons and a handful of abilities. Same could be said about Paladins as it follows the Overwatch model, except they have those cards that alter some statistics, but then again, nonce change the role of a class so radically.

Here, you can give any Warframe a rocket launcher, a grenade launcher, a flamethrower, and Opticor, or whatever. There's little use for abilities as they take forever to charge. Don't get me wrong. I use them every time as soon as I can, but you can use one like every minute or so and most are not exactly game-changing. Other class based PvP shooters put an emphasis in abilities, utilizing them properly and timely. 

All I've got to say is, when your PvP model fails and there are lots of successful and popular class based PvP games out there, perhaps you should examine why those are successful. Like I said, Warframe is not the first game PvE game I find with terrible PvP as a clutch. After playing so many of them, you learn that you simply can't fit a square peg in a circle hole. Attempting to balance a PvE system to force it work as PvP simply doesn't work, ever.

I remember this old game: Global agenda. It was F2P and PvE focused, class based third person sci-fi shooter much like Warframe, with PvP as an after thought, and it had a healthy PvP community because the abilities, classes and weapons were just a handful, which made it manageable.

hace 14 horas, peterc3 dijo:

Just remove everything that makes Warframe what it is and make it as close to every other generic shooter.

If I were in a position to have to make the choice, I'd sooner remove the mode wholesale than do this. There is nothing that connects this with Warframe except visuals. This is a worse idea than the Corpus vs. Grineer ideas because at least then you would have no expectations.

Tbh, Warframe PvP is salvageable. I've seen worse. Here, at the very least, the devs bothered to balance stuff a bit. I've seen games that just throw players against each other with full PvE gear so they instakill eachother instantly with mass AoE abilities. There is no denying that after their first try, they gave up, since there's been no update to conclave since PoE? no weapons, maps or frames ever since.

What makes Warframe unique is what other people said. This is a power fantasy, where you run down hordes of enemies with mass AoE abilities, overpowered weapons and insane ninja skills zooming like a jet plane with a crazy degree of 3D mobility. That simply doesn't work in PvP games. You can't have a game where everyone is literally playing superman and expect it to work.

You may call them "generic shooters" (though they are far from that), but there's a reason why they are so popular: The formula works, is entertaining and it's easier to manage. there are simply no functional PvP games with the insane degree of variance and customization that Warframe has, simply because it's too complex and like I said in my post, the system collapses under its own weight. 

hace 14 horas, Emolition dijo:

Not sure but think Tribes ascend gets close or worse.  Can do 1km it look like in 1 jump and 100 meter high or so and it really fast.

But biggest problem is this game was never meant to have pvp just after a minor part of the community demanded it  they added a small map for dueling that then grew into what we have now.

Tribes may have faster movement speed, but the weapons are much more forgivable, there are way more players per map, the maps are way more open and you don't have the same degree of mobility. You're faster if you move forwards, but that makes your trajectory predictable. In Warframe you can change directions quickly and easily, bounce of walls, etc. Trajectories in warframe are much more erratic. 

 

hace 13 horas, Rubbertubtub01 dijo:

I've been saying that DE need to make all weapons / warframes available to choose from in the conclave arsenal for ages now.

But don't restrict peoples weapons to what warframe they are using, that's silly. 

IMO, DE just need to disable abilities entirely and give all the warframes the same ehp (145 shields, 110 health 110 armour maybe) with 0.9 mobility, and just have unique PvP passives on each warframe. People can choose their character based on looks / the unique passive. It will be balanced, DE can adjust weapon stats based on a single amount of ehp, no need to worry about balancing abilities. Since there will be no abilities, remove No Current Leap, and just leave the current mods for adjusting mobility, so you can stay normal, be slow and tanky, or fast and weak.

That would be a start: everything unlocked from the beginning, but removing abilities and making each Warframe the same is a bit of a stretch. That would just turn the game into CoD with robots.The game would fit better if it turned to the closest functional PvP system, the likes of Team Fortress or Overwatch.

 

hace 2 horas, ByroSphere dijo:

As a fairly regular  conclave player, I gotta say it’s not as complex as most players makes it out to be.

I mean sure, even when I entered Conclave, it seemed like a jumbled mess with players moving at hypersonic speed with unfathomable maneuverability... But with experience you will start seeing the patterns of people’s moves, and get a better handle of your movements’ strengths AND limmits (the bullet jump and roll aren’t as impervious as many make it sound).

A simple, “lighbulb change”, could be to maybe include PvP tips as people wait in the lobby. Tips that mentions stuff like “It’s easier to shoot players who are aim gliding”, or “you can combo melee with your ranged weapons” for example.

Some kind of practice mode could also be nice.

I mean sure, after some time you get better at predicting trajectories, but still is fairly easy to lose a player who's bent on escaping. Still, like I said, the game ought to be playable not only by experienced veterans with insane tracking skills, but by everyone in every skill bracket. The main reason people play a few times and quit is precisely that, they can't be bothered with learning something as complex, not to mention other people might have frames and gear they don't.

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@ixidron92

But my point is that you don’t need to be a veteran with insane tracking skills. You just need to learn how to play against moving players as opposed to learning how to fight stationary AIs. 

I agree that some changes needs to be done, because many newbes are quitting early.. But I disagree that it has to be to the extent that it turns into a completely different game.

I mean, where do you think veterans gain their skills? It’s because even through the PvE content, you get to bullet jump, combat roll and parkour at high speeds to move across different areas. Only difference between them and the newbes in that case, is that the veterans adjust their cultivated parkour skills to better deal with other players, and then with time get additional experience specialized on that.

And this can be taught as well as it’s learned. But if you go around changing how even the controls work then that dynamic of transitioning experience will be completely lost. Turning Conclave even more isolated from the rest of the game (which is another issue that needs to be addressed), since then not only are the mods in conclave useless outside of it, skins bought from it unusable in normal modes and formaupgrades made inconsequential, but your previous game experience will also be made obsolete. Turning Conclave into a entirely separate game that is unrewarding, instead of Warframe in PvP.

So no, the movement abilities and speed got to stay the same. If anything can get restricted, then maybe some Warframe’s abilities, or nerf specific op weapons so that there is enough liberty to use a variety of loudout but without making any outright obsolete.

Otherwise I think more effort should be put into changing how Conclave is enabled rather than changing the gameplay itself. Like,   including tips as I said earlier, include a training mode similar to index but directly accessed from the conclave with corresponding stages, and maybe lock the Conclave mode behind a reasonable mastery rank (maybe MR 5-7) to ensure that the rookies aren’t too inexperienced in the game to handle other players.

Other than that, I think modes that disables warframe skills, or has players be restricted to specific loadouts should work more like alternate game modes played alongside the vanilla ones, rather than replacing them outright, because sometimes people simply want to use their own prefered presets rather than fixed boxes.

Either that, or make some Custom mode where the host can enable or disable different weapon types/frames. It could work decently if the lobbies were listed with names instead of loaded at random.

I also think making conlave items useable outside the conclave could come a long way to attract more players. Since then the investment of time and effort put into it well feel like it is part of your general gaming experience, instead of inconsequential “filler” that you only do when there is nothing else to do.

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hace 44 minutos, ByroSphere dijo:

@ixidron92

But my point is that you don’t need to be a veteran with insane tracking skills. You just need to learn how to play against moving players as opposed to learning how to fight stationary AIs. 

I agree that some changes needs to be done, because many newbes are quitting early.. But I disagree that it has to be to the extent that it turns into a completely different game.

I mean, where do you think veterans gain their skills? It’s because even through the PvE content, you get to bullet jump, combat roll and parkour at high speeds to move across different areas. Only difference between them and the newbes in that case, is that the veterans adjust their cultivated parkour skills to better deal with other players, and then with time get additional experience specialized on that.

And this can be taught as well as it’s learned. But if you go around changing how even the controls work then that dynamic of transitioning experience will be completely lost. Turning Conclave even more isolated from the rest of the game (which is another issue that needs to be addressed), since then not only are the mods in conclave useless outside of it, skins bought from it unusable in normal modes and formaupgrades made inconsequential, but your previous game experience will also be made obsolete. Turning Conclave into a entirely separate game that is unrewarding, instead of Warframe in PvP.

So no, the movement abilities and speed got to stay the same. If anything can get restricted, then maybe some Warframe’s abilities, or nerf specific op weapons so that there is enough liberty to use a variety of loudout but without making any outright obsolete.

Otherwise I think more effort should be put into changing how Conclave is enabled rather than changing the gameplay itself. Like,   including tips as I said earlier, include a training mode similar to index but directly accessed from the conclave with corresponding stages, and maybe lock the Conclave mode behind a reasonable mastery rank (maybe MR 5-7) to ensure that the rookies aren’t too inexperienced in the game to handle other players.

Other than that, I think modes that disables warframe skills, or has players be restricted to specific loadouts should work more like alternate game modes played alongside the vanilla ones, rather than replacing them outright, because sometimes people simply want to use their own prefered presets rather than fixed boxes.

Either that, or make some Custom mode where the host can enable or disable different weapon types/frames. It could work decently if the lobbies were listed with names instead of loaded at random.

I also think making conlave items useable outside the conclave could come a long way to attract more players. Since then the investment of time and effort put into it well feel like it is part of your general gaming experience, instead of inconsequential “filler” that you only do when there is nothing else to do.

I mean, all of that sounds good and that's the first everyone tries only to realize it's just way more complex than anticipated and ends up not working. Look, I've seen this repeat over, and over and over in  many games, and I had the same discussion I'm having with you with so many people. In the end PvP was never fixed in any game. My proposal is solid and tested. It works, as simple as that, we know it works because it's the base of a lot of famous PvP shooter. Now, name one functional PvP shooter with the Warframe system.

I know it's hard to accept. I know, it's a lot of work. I know people want to do tweaks and minor changes, and I know that never ever works. As simple as that. You can try as many changes as you want, but in the end, the system is fundamentally flawed at its core. The reason I did this forum post is because unlike most games developers here not only listen to the community, but have proven that they're willing to scrap flawed game systems and rebuild them from the ground up, which is something I've never witnessed before.

Like I said many times, there are tons of examples of functional class based PvP games and they all follow the same limited/restricted model because it's simple, manageable and effective and there are none that follow an everything goes system because that snowballs out of control pretty easily and becomes impossible to manage. Hence the reason conclave didn't get any new frame or weapon for way over a year. 

About your last suggestion: Never force PvP (or give PvP players anything but cosmetics) in a game that's primarily PvE. Trust me, there will be freaking riots.

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5 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

All I've got to say is, when your PvP model fails and there are lots of successful and popular class based PvP games out there, perhaps you should examine why those are successful.

But this also goes the other way: turning to PvE and asking why it's successful. Indeed, I would say it's more pertinent to ask why the PvE modes are successful, because they are what players of Warframe are playing. Following the formula of another game may work from a mechanical standpoint, but it's important to realize some players play CS:GO and not DoTA, some play DoTA and not TF2. The playerbase doesn't necessarily translate, and the further away the mode lies, the less that playerbase will translate. Speaking nothing of DE's capability to pull it off, mind, nor speaking of the fact that the mode then starts to compete with class-based shooters (and the like) that get entire dev cycles...

Which is why I suggest those other modes instead. They'd need much more work by an experienced dev team, but they keep one large part of PvE in the power fantasy, and one of them works off the back of one of the better-thought-of game modes. And, being much more Warframe-like, they're decently unique that one couldn't just boot up Overwatch or TF2 and get a similar game.

Edited by Tyreaus
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46 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

I mean, all of that sounds good and that's the first everyone tries only to realize it's just way more complex than anticipated and ends up not working. Look, I've seen this repeat over, and over and over in  many games, and I had the same discussion I'm having with you with so many people. In the end PvP was never fixed in any game. My proposal is solid and tested. It works, as simple as that, we know it works because it's the base of a lot of famous PvP shooter. Now, name one functional PvP shooter with the Warframe system.

I know it's hard to accept. I know, it's a lot of work. I know people want to do tweaks and minor changes, and I know that never ever works. As simple as that. You can try as many changes as you want, but in the end, the system is fundamentally flawed at its core. The reason I did this forum post is because unlike most games developers here not only listen to the community, but have proven that they're willing to scrap flawed game systems and rebuild them from the ground up, which is something I've never witnessed before.

Like I said many times, there are tons of examples of functional class based PvP games and they all follow the same limited/restricted model because it's simple, manageable and effective and there are none that follow an everything goes system because that snowballs out of control pretty easily and becomes impossible to manage. Hence the reason conclave didn't get any new frame or weapon for way over a year. 

About your last suggestion: Never force PvP (or give PvP players anything but cosmetics) in a game that's primarily PvE. Trust me, there will be freaking riots.

But here are the things that you are not accounting for, not only are there no other known PvE games like Warframe that has a successful pvp, there is no other PvE game that plays like Warframe, period.

While the thing that you are requesting, is not just balance the game out in a way that is known to work for other games, but you are also requesting to remove the variable that makes Warframe different from any other game... All while not accounting other issues that the Conclave have, which is it's isolation from the rest of the game.... Which I tell you, is not an issue that is common in most other successful PvEs with PvP modes, when what you are requesting involves isolating it further by making the PvP play nothing like it's PvE mode.

Altough I agree that weapons and abilities can have some level of restrictions, the mobility is not something that should be hampred that drastically, because it is the main appeal with this game. Taking it away is essentially giving the Conclave a death sentence, epsecially when including the other issues it faces.

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hace 44 minutos, ByroSphere dijo:

But here are the things that you are not accounting for, not only are there no other known PvE games like Warframe that has a successful pvp, there is no other PvE game that plays like Warframe, period.

While the thing that you are requesting, is not just balance the game out in a way that is known to work for other games, but you are also requesting to remove the variable that makes Warframe different from any other game... All while not accounting other issues that the Conclave have, which is it's isolation from the rest of the game.... Which I tell you, is not an issue that is common in most other successful PvEs with PvP modes, when what you are requesting involves isolating it further by making the PvP play nothing like it's PvE mode.

Altough I agree that weapons and abilities can have some level of restrictions, the mobility is not something that should be hampred that drastically, because it is the main appeal with this game. Taking it away is essentially giving the Conclave a death sentence, epsecially when including the other issues it faces.

 

hace 1 hora, Tyreaus dijo:

But this also goes the other way: turning to PvE and asking why it's successful. Indeed, I would say it's more pertinent to ask why the PvE modes are successful, because they are what players of Warframe are playing. Following the formula of another game may work from a mechanical standpoint, but it's important to realize some players play CS:GO and not DoTA, some play DoTA and not TF2. The playerbase doesn't necessarily translate, and the further away the mode lies, the less that playerbase will translate. Speaking nothing of DE's capability to pull it off, mind, nor speaking of the fact that the mode then starts to compete with class-based shooters (and the like) that get entire dev cycles...

Which is why I suggest those other modes instead. They'd need much more work by an experienced dev team, but they keep one large part of PvE in the power fantasy, and one of them works off the back of one of the better-thought-of game modes. And, being much more Warframe-like, they're decently unique that one couldn't just boot up Overwatch or TF2 and get a similar game.

Warframe is not unique. It's just another class based shooter. There's Destiny, the closest thing to it. Sure, every game has its own gimmicks, and that's fine. Warframe is all about quantity over quality, with tons of options to choose from and little regard for balance. I'm not requesting to remove something that makes Warframe different. I'm requesting to reduce the number of available things for a single game mode in order to make it remotely viable. Hell, i'm not even requesting the entire removal of the mobility system, just some limitations. 

I have the opposite opinion, the weapon limitation I asked for it to reduce complexity, but that isn't the main problem I spot. The main problem is mobility. That is the single, most important issue with Warframe's PvP hands down. People go in for the first time, see everyone just jumping and zooming around at insane speeds, dodging like maniacs, they miss all their shots, get killed by a dude using a flamethrower and quit, never to be seen again. You simply can't keep something so unappealing to all but a minority and the numbers prove it.

Heck, if they removed bullet jumping and wall bouncing and tested that for a week, I'm willing to bet all my platinum PvP would gain popularity and quickly. Sure, the old guard would complain, no one likes to see something they enjoy changed, but "The needs of the many /Spock."

Now seriously, trying to shove a flawed system down people's throats - no matter how much training, tips, rewards and attempts at integration you try - simply won't work. When the foundations are crooked, you need to demolish your house and rebuild from the ground up.

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3 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

I'm not requesting to remove something that makes Warframe different.

Except...

3 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

...removed bullet jumping and wall bouncing...

Those are things that make Warframe different. Especially from Destiny, if that's considered the closest thing.

And I think there's an important question to ask beneath this: if you make these sorts of changes and rebuild Conclave to be much more like some other shooter's PvP - let's say Destiny, for the sake of proximity - what reason would players have to play Warframe's version over Destiny's?

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hace 1 minuto, Tyreaus dijo:

Except...

Those are things that make Warframe different. Especially from Destiny, if that's considered the closest thing.

And I think there's an important question to ask beneath this: if you make these sorts of changes and rebuild Conclave to be much more like some other shooter's PvP - let's say Destiny, for the sake of proximity - what reason would players have to play Warframe's version over Destiny's?

If your entire summary of Warframe is wall bouncing and bullet jump then we have a problem here. 

I mean, there are a lot of similar class based PvP shooters. Asking what reason to play X over Y always boils down to personal preference. PvP here is basically dead in the water and abandoned since the Khora release. Allow me to rise an eyebrow if you suggest that turning PvP to a more mainstream appeal would make people flock to Destiny.

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1 minute ago, ixidron92 said:

If your entire summary of Warframe is wall bouncing and bullet jump then we have a problem here. 

It isn't. But you said you aren't requesting to remove something that makes Warframe unique, and the mobility is one thing that makes Warframe unique. So that's quite bewildering, to say the least.

2 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

I mean, there are a lot of similar class based PvP shooters. Asking what reason to play X over Y always boils down to personal preference. PvP here is basically dead in the water and abandoned since the Khora release. Allow me to rise an eyebrow if you suggest that turning PvP to a more mainstream appeal would make people flock to Destiny.

I sense I may not have been clear.

What I am saying is that making the game mode much more like another game creates comparisons. Negative comparisons impact opinions, and opinions impact overall results. That includes internal comparisons—"this isn't why I got into Warframe"—and external comparisons—"this sucks compared to Destiny". Neither of those opinions are positive, but would be much more common if Conclave were rebuilt closer to Crucible.

Of course, the changes suggested in this thread likely would create an uptick in player base, but so would comparatively minor improvements like a server browser or greater exposure to players. And so would the modes I suggested. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of ways to do things.

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hace 21 minutos, Tyreaus dijo:

It isn't. But you said you aren't requesting to remove something that makes Warframe unique, and the mobility is one thing that makes Warframe unique. So that's quite bewildering, to say the least.

I sense I may not have been clear.

What I am saying is that making the game mode much more like another game creates comparisons. Negative comparisons impact opinions, and opinions impact overall results. That includes internal comparisons—"this isn't why I got into Warframe"—and external comparisons—"this sucks compared to Destiny". Neither of those opinions are positive, but would be much more common if Conclave were rebuilt closer to Crucible.

Of course, the changes suggested in this thread likely would create an uptick in player base, but so would comparatively minor improvements like a server browser or greater exposure to players. And so would the modes I suggested. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of ways to do things.

I said removing in that theoretical scenario just to make an argument and prove a point, but in my original post I don't advocate for outright removal but restriction. I agree that certain toned down movements for some frames, but it doesn't make much sense (from a PvP, class based standpoint) that Rhino, for example, can be as nimble as Volt and perform the same actions despite being noticeably larger and bulkier while Volt is advertised as a speed frame.

Exposure, server browser, more and better rewards, loading tips, training mode, integration into normal gameplay, even adding more game modes, maps, mods, frames, weapons and rebalancing them ad nauseam, still won't fix the fundamental problem. Sure, it would bring a slight uptick of players who notice Conclave for the first time or decide to give it another chance just to see if things got fixed. They'll play a few matches, see it's still just a mess and the amount of players will go down again. You're trying to patch a sinking ship with ductape. Those fixes will still not solve the fundamental problem. The base, the foundation is flawed. The mechanics are simply wrong and no amount of small or large scale fixes will salvage that. It needs to be reworked entirely, even if it means toning down or outright removing some features, and the reason for that is stuff that works in PvE rarely works in PvP. You can't try to force PvE mechanics in a PvP game mode and expect it to function.

PvP and PvE need to be developed and rebalanced separately then brought together, but you can't have PvP as an offshoot of a PvE system with PvE mechanics. History taught us time and again that attempting to do so will fail no matter what. Note that you can do the oposite, and it works quite nicely. A PvP game with PvP systems can design a successful PvE mode. Of course, that's because PvP is infinitely more complex to design and balance than PvE. So, if your game is based around PvP primarily, you just need some minor adjustments to make it work as PvE.

Edited by ixidron92
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9 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

PvP and PvE need to be developed and rebalanced separately then brought together, but you can't have PvP as an offshoot of a PvE system with PvE mechanics. History taught us time and again that attempting to do so will fail no matter what.

Well, actually, if we are going to talk about PvE games having success even when their PvP modes shared the exact game mechanics as the rest of the game... Have you heard about Armored Core For Answer? It had about as much if not even more freedom in loudout customization than Warframe, while ALSO having crazy levels of mobility with little to no restrictions, all while still being fairly successful for its time. 

If we are going to implement mechanics of other successful games, then I think it should be based on factors that doesn’t lessen Warframe’s main appeal, which is the speed and acrobatics... And well, if you have played Conclave recently, you will notice that they have already toned down the speed aspect quite significantly (even Loki feels heavy as Rhino). So I don’t think it’s a good idea to make the game even slower.

If changes need to be made in the core mechanics, rather than making the Warframes slow enough that even a inexperienced newbe can manually aim and hit them, how about applying some minor auto aim correction mechanic within the crosshairs? That way at least you can maintain the speed (if not increase it back up to PvE lvls), but at the sametime decrease the player accuracy needed to keep up.

The auto aim correction could vary depending on weapon class too, like rifles and machine guns could have a wide area to secure more hits, Snipers and Bows will have a very small AAC area, while wide AOE weapons of any type in general should not have any at all (counting weps with projectile/blast radius wider than 0.5m).

They also could increase the base Shields, HP and Armor of every frame to give more room for rookie mistakes without getting insta killed, and decrease the time limit so that the match wouldn’t feel too dragged out (5min tops).

If that is not enough to make up for newbes lack of experience, then I would suggest to lock the Conclave behind a mastery rank, so that they will have enough understanding about the gameplay to handle it by the time they have it unlocked (MR 5 is the minimum that I’d suggest).

Other necessary changes, would involve increasing the Conclave’s reward pool (particularly a rotating one that has a bit of everything, a la Nightwave), while making all conclave items/gear/upgrades you have done on the conclave be useable for the rest of the game. All so that players can invest their time on it without having to worry about missing out desirable loot.

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54 minutes ago, ByroSphere said:

Well, actually, if we are going to talk about PvE games having success even when their PvP modes shared the exact game mechanics as the rest of the game... Have you heard about Armored Core For Answer? It had about as much if not even more freedom in loudout customization than Warframe, while ALSO having crazy levels of mobility with little to no restrictions, all while still being fairly successful for its time. 

If we are going to implement mechanics of other successful games, then I think it should be based on factors that doesn’t lessen Warframe’s main appeal, which is the speed and acrobatics... And well, if you have played Conclave recently, you will notice that they have already toned down the speed aspect quite significantly (even Loki feels heavy as Rhino). So I don’t think it’s a good idea to make the game even slower.

If changes need to be made in the core mechanics, rather than making the Warframes slow enough that even a inexperienced newbe can manually aim and hit them, how about applying some minor auto aim correction mechanic within the crosshairs? That way at least you can maintain the speed (if not increase it back up to PvE lvls), but at the sametime decrease the player accuracy needed to keep up.

The auto aim correction could vary depending on weapon class too, like rifles and machine guns could have a wide area to secure more hits, Snipers and Bows will have a very small AAC area, while wide AOE weapons of any type in general should not have any at all (counting weps with projectile/blast radius wider than 0.5m).

They also could increase the base Shields, HP and Armor of every frame to give more room for rookie mistakes without getting insta killed, and decrease the time limit so that the match wouldn’t feel too dragged out (5min tops).

If that is not enough to make up for newbes lack of experience, then I would suggest to lock the Conclave behind a mastery rank, so that they will have enough understanding about the gameplay to handle it by the time they have it unlocked (MR 5 is the minimum that I’d suggest).

Other necessary changes, would involve increasing the Conclave’s reward pool (particularly a rotating one that has a bit of everything, a la Nightwave), while making all conclave items/gear/upgrades you have done on the conclave be useable for the rest of the game. All so that players can invest their time on it without having to worry about missing out desirable loot.

No, Aim Assist is a terrible mechanic that shouldn't be present in any PC shooter.

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Aim Assist is only terrible for shooters where the players are slow and predictable. In games as fast paced as Warframe, it’s nothing but necessary, because then you don’t have to be super perceptive to keep up with speeding players.

I mean look at any other high manuever game like Ace Combat, Armored Core, Gundam VS Next or Zone of the Enders. They all are games with crazy amounts of mobility, and what does they all have in common that makes it work despite the mind numbing speed? They all have a form of aim assist, that allows them to go as crazy as they want without sacrificing accuracy.

Now, since Warframe isn’t quite as fast as AC4 Answer, the aim assist doesn’t have to go quite as far as an full on autolock on, nor is it necessary to apply this on the PVE modes. But, the conclave at least, should have a limited form of aim correction, so that more weapons other than the AOE or 1 hit kill snipers becomes viable for the majority... At least viable enough so that they can put up a fight against veterans, without the veterans stomping them too hard, unless they really are just that much better.

 

In either case, I much prefer being able to go as fast as a bullet while dodging attacks by fooling their general aim, instead of having to play like a snail only so that players that never had aimed before can shoot me.

Edited by ByroSphere
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As one of those guys who stepped into Conclave once, got recked, then left and vowed to never return

I'm going to say that the Mobility was the biggest put off.

 

Insane Mobility, combined with unavoidable Network Lag; meant you seem to just randomly die while that 1 guy just keeps bunnyhopping all over the place.

That's just not fun. Closest analogy is Arbitrations where you get randomly 1 shot killed by who knows what; exact same feeling.

and since there's no fix for the Network Lag (dedicated Conclave servers are PC-only).... The Mobility issue is going to stay a problem.

 

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28 minutes ago, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

As one of those guys who stepped into Conclave once, got recked, then left and vowed to never return

I'm going to say that the Mobility was the biggest put off.

 

Insane Mobility, combined with unavoidable Network Lag; meant you seem to just randomly die while that 1 guy just keeps bunnyhopping all over the place.

That's just not fun. Closest analogy is Arbitrations where you get randomly 1 shot killed by who knows what; exact same feeling.

and since there's no fix for the Network Lag (dedicated Conclave servers are PC-only).... The Mobility issue is going to stay a problem.

 

Well, besides maybe making a dedicated server for the consoles too (assuming it’s possible) and giving all frames enough Hp/Ar/Sh to avoid getting 1hk, I don’t see much in how that can be dealt with. Cause even if we say we turned Conclave into Overwatch with warframe skin, you still will be pwned hard if you lagg too much.

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1 hour ago, ByroSphere said:

Aim Assist is only terrible for shooters where the players are slow and predictable. In games as fast paced as Warframe, it’s nothing but necessary, because then you don’t have to be super perceptive to keep up with speeding players.

I mean look at any other high manuever game like Ace Combat, Armored Core, Gundam VS Next or Zone of the Enders. They all are games with crazy amounts of mobility, and what does they all have in common that makes it work despite the mind numbing speed? They all have a form of aim assist, that allows them to go as crazy as they want without sacrificing accuracy.

Now, since Warframe isn’t quite as fast as AC4 Answer, the aim assist doesn’t have to go quite as far as an full on autolock on, nor is it necessary to apply this on the PVE modes. But, the conclave at least, should have a limited form of aim correction, so that more weapons other than the AOE or 1 hit kill snipers becomes viable for the majority... At least viable enough so that they can put up a fight against veterans, without the veterans stomping them too hard, unless they really are just that much better.

 

In either case, I much prefer being able to go as fast as a bullet while dodging attacks by fooling their general aim, instead of having to play like a snail only so that players that never had aimed before can shoot me.

 

Veterans ARE that much better.

Aim Assist would lower the skill cap by a massive amount and make high level Conclave terrible.

Aim assist is not the solution. Movement is what needs to be looked at. Not in the way OP described though. The issue with mobility is much more complex than "Bullet jump bad". 

There's 2 things that make mobility an issue: slide animations having no cooldown (mostly an issue when going for headshots) and walljumps resetting all maneuvers (every single time someone complains about bullet jumps they're actually talking about bullet jumping chaining off walls).

Edited by Tachmag
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