Feedback: The reason why Conclave fails (and how to fix)

[ByroSphere]

I

46 minutes ago, Tachmag said:

 

Veterans ARE that much better.

Aim Assist would lower the skill cap by a massive amount and make high level Conclave terrible.

It will lower the bar needed to pull of impossible shots, sure, but at the same time it will increase the bar needed to be good at dodging and pull off assaults, because more effort and experience will be needed to outmaneuver your opponents.

Everyone will get a higher kill count on average, because it will be easier to land kills... But those who wants to play real high level will still have room to grow, because now you actually have to think about when, where and how you dash around. Actually putting pressure on the bullet jumps/rolls/slides natural limits instead of artificially creating new ones.

After all, if you move fast enough, then you could even dodge aim assisted shots, but you can’t dodge much if the game was slowed down enough that even normal aim can tag (which is why games like CoD and Overwatch relies on covers and shields).

[ixidron92]

hace 5 horas, ByroSphere dijo:

Well, actually, if we are going to talk about PvE games having success even when their PvP modes shared the exact game mechanics as the rest of the game... Have you heard about Armored Core For Answer? It had about as much if not even more freedom in loudout customization than Warframe, while ALSO having crazy levels of mobility with little to no restrictions, all while still being fairly successful for its time. 

If we are going to implement mechanics of other successful games, then I think it should be based on factors that doesn’t lessen Warframe’s main appeal, which is the speed and acrobatics... And well, if you have played Conclave recently, you will notice that they have already toned down the speed aspect quite significantly (even Loki feels heavy as Rhino). So I don’t think it’s a good idea to make the game even slower.

If changes need to be made in the core mechanics, rather than making the Warframes slow enough that even a inexperienced newbe can manually aim and hit them, how about applying some minor auto aim correction mechanic within the crosshairs? That way at least you can maintain the speed (if not increase it back up to PvE lvls), but at the sametime decrease the player accuracy needed to keep up.

The auto aim correction could vary depending on weapon class too, like rifles and machine guns could have a wide area to secure more hits, Snipers and Bows will have a very small AAC area, while wide AOE weapons of any type in general should not have any at all (counting weps with projectile/blast radius wider than 0.5m).

They also could increase the base Shields, HP and Armor of every frame to give more room for rookie mistakes without getting insta killed, and decrease the time limit so that the match wouldn’t feel too dragged out (5min tops).

If that is not enough to make up for newbes lack of experience, then I would suggest to lock the Conclave behind a mastery rank, so that they will have enough understanding about the gameplay to handle it by the time they have it unlocked (MR 5 is the minimum that I’d suggest).

Other necessary changes, would involve increasing the Conclave’s reward pool (particularly a rotating one that has a bit of everything, a la Nightwave), while making all conclave items/gear/upgrades you have done on the conclave be useable for the rest of the game. All so that players can invest their time on it without having to worry about missing out desirable loot.

I didn't know about Armored Core (I don't even own a console). After checking some of it's gameplay and reading about its features, I don't see how it can compare. It was built with a heavy PvP component developed alongside PvE. Sure, lots of loadouts can work and it's nothing unheard of, but in the case of Warframe we're talking about mods, weapons and the Warframe itself, each and everyone unique on its own.

I definitely disagree about aim assist. That's a console thing. Armored core for example has tons of aim assist and guided munitions to compensate for its fast pace and even so a 1v1 duel can last for 10 minutes as players spam heat-seeking missiles and take potshots at each other. Funnily enough, that's similar to what happens in Warframe: spam and AoE weaponry. You can't simply fix a fundamental problem by adding a clutch. Sure, it would help newbies, but it wouldn't do them any good in the long run. Once you get used to it, you can land hits with hit-scan weapons, but the problem is that not everyone has the same skill ceiling and PvP needs to be accessible by everyone.

And again I disagree about adding conclave items that are usable outside of conclave. In a PvE focused game, that would lead to a wave of complains. Unless you're referring to formas, affinity and stuff? Which is already a thing. You can level up a weapon or frame in Conclave if you wish.

hace 2 horas, Tachmag dijo:

 

Veterans ARE that much better.

Aim Assist would lower the skill cap by a massive amount and make high level Conclave terrible.

Aim assist is not the solution. Movement is what needs to be looked at. Not in the way OP described though. The issue with mobility is much more complex than "Bullet jump bad". 

There's 2 things that make mobility an issue: slide animations having no cooldown (mostly an issue when going for headshots) and walljumps resetting all maneuvers (every single time someone complains about bullet jumps they're actually talking about bullet jumping chaining off walls).

I agree, bouncing from wall to wall is the biggest issue. You can bullet jump once, but as soon as you touch the ground or a wall or any obstacle you can chain that, repeating ad infinitum. Some cooldown to slide and bullet jump would help, but wall bouncing needs to go.

[Tachmag]

1 hour ago, ByroSphere said:

I

It will lower the bar needed to pull of impossible shots, sure, but at the same time it will increase the bar needed to be good at dodging and pull off assaults, because more effort and experience will be needed to outmaneuver your opponents.

Everyone will get a higher kill count on average, because it will be easier to land kills... But those who wants to play real high level will still have room to grow, because now you actually have to think about when, where and how you dash around. Actually putting pressure on the bullet jumps/rolls/slides natural limits instead of artificially creating new ones.

After all, if you move fast enough, then you could even dodge aim assisted shots, but you can’t dodge much if the game was slowed down enough that even normal aim can tag (which is why games like CoD and Overwatch relies on covers and shields).

Adding aim assist is no better than reducing movement. Actually, it's worse than reducing movement, since Aim Assist makes shaky aim a non-issue.

[ixidron92]

Aim assist is something ridiculous for PC games. I could see it working for console, since that's the norm, but no self respected PvP shooter should have aim assist built in for PC.

[ixidron92]

En 22/10/2019 a las 0:23, Sevek7 dijo:

Yes, that's why I said it. It's not because it's unbalanced, not because the mobility is bad, but because it's hard. Some people like a challenge!

Yeah it's been hard to find matches for me recently too. I think when the new update comes it will be easier. (Note: others have suggested a server browser which would go a long way to fixing this issue.) Also, have you tried turning off recruit conditioning?

Yeah, conclave sadly isn't accessible to the majority of the playerbase due to the extremely high skill ceiling. There is of course a way to fix that - server browser again - but that idea just doesn't seem to get traction for some reason. The point is, there are simple suggestions that we should try first, before we consider radically changing the entire game-mode. Perhaps you're right, maybe we need to remove the uniqueness of warframe in order to make the PvP popular. But can we please try the other, simpler things first?

Here's an analogy, if your lamp stops working, do you try changing the lightbulb? Or do you immediately start rewiring the entire house? I'm suggesting we try changing the lightbulb first.

You're right, I shouldn't blindly defend the game-mode. There are several criticisms about it that are certainly valid - and you'll find those criticisms being made here in the forums by experienced conclavers. I've made feedback posts with suggestions for change as well. However, let me make another analogy here. Let's say you meet someone who just finished Vor's Prize, and has a rank 12 Mk-1 Braton with the damaged mods on. They proceed to tell you about their idea for a fun, challenging endgame mode in warframe. Their idea is that your warframe has no shields for the entire mission. Obviously, as an experienced player, you know that shields are way less useful than health at the higher level of the game. But, to a new player, shields are extremely useful. So, their idea is bad. It's not their fault, they just haven't played long enough to understand. We shouldn't beat them over the head about it, but we're also not going to take their idea seriously. So we say okay, great, nice enthusiasm, but play for a while longer and you'll come up with better ideas. Of course they might be offended that we didn't take their idea seriously, but one day they'll look back and understand why. 

The last thing you said is important: "Experience matters, but that doesn't mean legitimate concerns should be dismissed just because that guy is less experienced." Yes, experience matters, I don't ask my plumber to fix my health problems. At least not until my plumber has finished one year of med-school. Then I'll start listening a bit. And you're right, if an inexperienced person brought a legitimate concern, we would all listen. But all your concerns have been brought before. We've discussed them a hundred times. If you were the first to have suggested reduced mobility, it would have been an interesting conversation. But, conclavers have discussed this possibility. At length. Many times. So, it's not because you're less experienced, it's because we're repeating the past. 

Even if some people like the challenge, PvP shouldn't be dictated by what the best players say. Successful PvP appeals to everyone. In my opinion, the best and easiest way to do that would be reducing mobility overall. Perhaps measures could be taken to increase mobility later on for those experienced players, but if we want PvP to appeal to the majority first, mobility is the biggest issue to tackle. Not everyone has the same skill ceiling, not everyone has the same hand-eye coordination, reflexes let alone time to invest to gain experience and hone your skills. You might like PvP the way it is, but the  overall numbers don't lie, we have millions of players and insanely long queues just to find a match. that alone should tell you PvP isn't appealing enough to the majority.

It is insanely hard to find matches. With recruit conditioning off it's probably harder, because it's on by default and people don't even notice it, but yeah, the quality has increased, albeit marginally.

I don't see how a server browser would fix the high skill requirement. Look, everyone wants to try different smaller things first. It's our human instinct. We don't like big changes and prefer small gradual changes, but this is simple: It won't work. People here have suggested tons of different changes, but all of them are just incentives, promotion, advertisement, rewards. None of them are fixed. A server browser or a training mode still won't fix the main issue. PvP is not appealing because the requirements to play it at a fun, enjoyable level are too damn high for most people. Minor modifications that make PvP more noticeable but don't fix the basic mechanics that make it unappealing will only result in small temporal upticks of players followed by a return to the old almost abandoned state.

Yeah, but if you notice your plug is sparking, perhaps it's not the light-bulb, but alright, you change the lightbulb and the plug is still sparking and everyone around you notices that an tells you to fix it, but no, you'll better change the lightbulb again just in case the new one you've bought is defective, and if that doesn't work you change the lamp, but the plug is still sparking, maybe buy another lamp? Look, we all want to fix stuff the cheap and easy way first and that just ends up being a massive waste of time, money and resources if the basic issue isn't addressed. No, when the issue is so glaringly obvious, small fixes just won't cut it.

I won't deny that experience gives perspective, but also brings a lot of stubbornness. The more time you've invested in something, even if the concept is originally flawed, the less likely you're to accept new changes, and the bigger then changes the higher one rejects them. Sure, new players might be wrong, but maybe they are damn right and knowledgeable or smart enough to analyze a situation, identify the problem and come up with a solution, only to be dismissed because "not enough experience". That's actually a plague in modern society, not just this particular game tbh. I prefer to hear everyone out and reply with an argument and an explanation of why they're right or wrong than dismissing their idead outright just because they are new. sure, I haven't invested 200 hours in conclave, but I have several hours under my belt as well as knowledge from many more games, and this is not the first PvE oriented game I encounter that has issues with making a serviceable PvP mode. The reason is always the same: they try to apply PvE logic and mechanics to PvP and that simply doesn't work.

You should then analyze why we're repeating the past. When the same issue is brought to attention by so many disconnected people over time, perhaps there is a lingering problem that should be addressed there.

[ByroSphere]

1 hour ago, ixidron92 said:

Aim assist is something ridiculous for PC games. I could see it working for console, since that's the norm, but no self respected PvP shooter should have aim assist built in for PC.

It only seems like that because most PC shooters got a fundamentally different way to survive a hail of attacks than Warframe. I mean think about it, can you actually dodge bullets head on in games like CoD or OW? The answer is mostly no. What’s the main way you deal with an assault in those games? You either hide into a nearby cover, or use some kind of shield to block any incoming fire. What is the main layout for stages in those games? Multiple types of terrains, with different covers practically everywhere.

Now, compare this to Warframe. Can you avoid bullets headon? Yes, and very consistently too. What is the main way to deal with an assault? You dash away in high speeds to manuever away from the attacks. How are most stages layed out? They are usually either tight corridors with multiple entrances, or open planes with tall walls/obstacles that you can use to wall jump off without losing speed.

Warframe may seem similar to a regular cover shooter, in the sense that you use guns, loot for modable gears and doesn’t use much if any aim assist... But, the way the movements are applied and the fundamental way you deal with engagements, is completely different, and is actually closer to high mobility 3rd person shooters like Armored Core or Ace Combat in practice.

The fact that those games are more PvP friendly than Warframe right now, is nothing but another reason to use them as inspirations to fix the Conclave’s issues.

So if you are going to change Warframe’s pvp to something that works, shouldn’t you use a game that is similar in principle instead of something fundamentally different?

I mean, you even admited that Warframe is like AC in that you use a lot of AoE while moving at high speeds, and as you can see, it was that without being any less competetive despite the aim assist. So isn’t that a good enough reason to see it as a good idea to involve some aim assist, which has proven to work well in high speed games (which is Warframe’s main appeal), instead of slowing it down to be closer to a generic shooter that doesn’t even have the same “feel”?

There will always be players who are significantly more skilled than others, true. But you know, this is also true even for this slowed down game mode you are talking about. The differences lays more on the aspect that what you are suggesting, involves turning the Conclave into a completely different game, only so that you can perserve the skill involved in manual aiming.

While what I am suggesting, would involve turning the Conclave closer to how it is for the rest of the game, but changing it enough so that the high mobility aspect becomes viable in PvP. Sacrificing the skill needed for precise aiming, but with an increased need for skill in manueverability.

In both cases it would be easier for newbes to get more kills, and have a higher chance to fend off opponents. But while your proposal basically turns Warframe into a cover shooter in stages that barely has any covers, I’m suggesting a way to solve the difficulty in hitting high speed targets without turning the Conclave into Destiny with warframe skins.

With that said, even though I do think that AC and company are better examples, I do think that Warframe should not copy everything from it. Like for example the time limit in matches.  In AC matches could last anything from 7 mins to 15 mins, but based on experience in Conclave, I gotta say that even just 10 mins feels like too much time in a single map. And often see players quitting in the middle of it starting from the 5 min mark (give or take two mins). There is also the aspect that although I want some aim assist in pvp, I don’t want it to be at the same extent as AC where you are literally locked onto a target.

The extent of aim assist Im talking about, is basically asking for a wider hit box for certain weapons (the machinegun/assault rifle types in particular), so that you don’t need to have 90% accuracy to be able to kill anyone with it.

It certainly would change the game dynamic quite a bit, but I would bet plat that it would be more engaging for everyone than now. Because unlike now, it will actually be hard to avoid an assault, since it would take more than just jumping at random directions to shake someone’s aim off (partly because with aim assist, you can probably chase someone and shoot them accurately at the same time, forcing veterans to think of more ways around that). While newbes will feel like they actually are decent enough at the game, because it’s easier for them to get kills, even if they still die quite often. 

As for the regards about rewards, what “complaints” are you referring to? If you are referring to PvE onlies complaining about not wanting to be forced into PvP just to get some items, you got to consider that they are literally the last people to be in any position to complain about it. Since by the way things are now, you are actually obligated to farm PvE content to progress anywhere in the whole game, while even if conclave items were universal you could still gain them via trade without playing a single pvp match (making that complaint invalid).

That’s all without mentioning that people mainly play looter shooters (including PvP centric ones) with a preference to game modes that rewards good loot and gameplay/level progression. The conclave being depraved of that, basically means that players have no reason to invest on it alongside the many other game modes that Warframe offers.

[ByroSphere]

7 hours ago, Tachmag said:

Adding aim assist is no better than reducing movement. Actually, it's worse than reducing movement, since Aim Assist makes shaky aim a non-issue.

Reducing movement is actually worse, because it would involve removing or at least tuning down Warframe’s main appeal (especially when you consider that Conclave has already been made slower). Aim Assist could be a good thing, because it allows the game to emphasize it’s main appeal while making it viable for PvP.

I mean, would you play Warframe as a whole if your moves were like Counter Strike, but the stages not being specifically made to fit with that playstyle? Would you enjoy playing a cover shooter without any covers?

5 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

Even if some people like the challenge, PvP shouldn't be dictated by what the best players say. Successful PvP appeals to everyone. In my opinion, the best and easiest way to do that would be reducing mobility overall. Perhaps measures could be taken to increase mobility later on for those experienced players, but if we want PvP to appeal to the majority first, mobility is the biggest issue to tackle. Not everyone has the same skill ceiling, not everyone has the same hand-eye coordination, reflexes let alone time to invest to gain experience and hone your skills. You might like PvP the way it is, but the  overall numbers don't lie, we have millions of players and insanely long queues just to find a match. that alone should tell you PvP isn't appealing enough to the majority.

It is insanely hard to find matches. With recruit conditioning off it's probably harder, because it's on by default and people don't even notice it, but yeah, the quality has increased, albeit marginally.

I don't see how a server browser would fix the high skill requirement. Look, everyone wants to try different smaller things first. It's our human instinct. We don't like big changes and prefer small gradual changes, but this is simple: It won't work. People here have suggested tons of different changes, but all of them are just incentives, promotion, advertisement, rewards. None of them are fixed. A server browser or a training mode still won't fix the main issue. PvP is not appealing because the requirements to play it at a fun, enjoyable level are too damn high for most people. Minor modifications that make PvP more noticeable but don't fix the basic mechanics that make it unappealing will only result in small temporal upticks of players followed by a return to the old almost abandoned state.

Yeah, but if you notice your plug is sparking, perhaps it's not the light-bulb, but alright, you change the lightbulb and the plug is still sparking and everyone around you notices that an tells you to fix it, but no, you'll better change the lightbulb again just in case the new one you've bought is defective, and if that doesn't work you change the lamp, but the plug is still sparking, maybe buy another lamp? Look, we all want to fix stuff the cheap and easy way first and that just ends up being a massive waste of time, money and resources if the basic issue isn't addressed. No, when the issue is so glaringly obvious, small fixes just won't cut it.

I won't deny that experience gives perspective, but also brings a lot of stubbornness. The more time you've invested in something, even if the concept is originally flawed, the less likely you're to accept new changes, and the bigger then changes the higher one rejects them. Sure, new players might be wrong, but maybe they are damn right and knowledgeable or smart enough to analyze a situation, identify the problem and come up with a solution, only to be dismissed because "not enough experience". That's actually a plague in modern society, not just this particular game tbh. I prefer to hear everyone out and reply with an argument and an explanation of why they're right or wrong than dismissing their idead outright just because they are new. sure, I haven't invested 200 hours in conclave, but I have several hours under my belt as well as knowledge from many more games, and this is not the first PvE oriented game I encounter that has issues with making a serviceable PvP mode. The reason is always the same: they try to apply PvE logic and mechanics to PvP and that simply doesn't work.

You should then analyze why we're repeating the past. When the same issue is brought to attention by so many disconnected people over time, perhaps there is a lingering problem that should be addressed there.

I agree that we should analyze the past, and that we shouldn’t stubbornly hold onto old perspectives. What Im putting into question is which past games you are using as examples. Warframe does not play like a slow paced cover shooter, so you should not use cover shooters as a base to change it.

Newbes have problems not because “Warframes are too fast”. If that was the case, they wouldn’t play Warframe at all, because the whole game encourages speed with your characters’ manueverability. What new players have problems with, is that it’s hard to hit fast moving targets. And there are ways to solve that problem besides making the targets slow.

Warframe is closer to games like Armored Core, on the basis that the player heavily relies on mobility to avoid enemy attacks. So my suggestion is to study how other high mobility games like AC, deals with the problem that is hitting fast targets, before even considering to remove fast targets all together.

If there is a stigma here that needs to be put aside, it is not the idea that “Conclave should be fast because it's Warframe's main appeal”, but the idea that “Aim Assist is bad, because they don’t work on shooters”. Because that stigma doesn’t take into account mobility reliant 3rd person shooters who actually works because of different levels of aim assists.

It’s true that if a lightbulb doesn’t work, then it’s only natural to use another one in its stead. But you have got to make sure that the lightbulb you are choosing is compatible to the outlet you have, or else it would involve modifying the outlet just to work with that specific lightbulb. That’d be far more work, and far more easier to fail, because it is less complex to properly change a bulb than it is to correctly modify an outlet.

While as far as the other “smaller” issues are concerned, I’d suggest we discuss them before deciding that they are a bigger or smaller issue than the difficulty of conclave. In either case, they all weigh Conclave  down as a whole, with each having particular significance as well as many possible solutions that may be more readily applicable than others.

But if you were to personally ask me, I’d say that the Conclave’s lack of universal rewards is a bigger problem, because based on experience, I have seen players be willing to overcome higher difficulty if the rewards are good enough... While I have found a way that makes it possible to deal with this speed without needing to become super perceptive, lessening it’s urgency for a change.

Edited October 23, 2019 by ByroSphere
Changed wording of "people play Warframe because of speed" to " because it's Warframe main appeal" cause it sounds better. Also grammar

[Sevek7]

7 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

Even if some people like the challenge, PvP shouldn't be dictated by what the best players say. Successful PvP appeals to everyone. In my opinion, the best and easiest way to do that would be reducing mobility overall. Perhaps measures could be taken to increase mobility later on for those experienced players, but if we want PvP to appeal to the majority first, mobility is the biggest issue to tackle. Not everyone has the same skill ceiling, not everyone has the same hand-eye coordination, reflexes let alone time to invest to gain experience and hone your skills. You might like PvP the way it is, but the  overall numbers don't lie, we have millions of players and insanely long queues just to find a match. that alone should tell you PvP isn't appealing enough to the majority.

You're right that successful PvP appeals to everyone. Usually, this is done through two methods: 1) Matchmaking players with others at the same skill level, and 2) Player interest in getting better and overcoming a challenge. Warframe fails in both of these because 1) No server browser (Recruit conditioning is a band-aid) and 2) PvE is extremely easy so players are conditioned to expect wins without having to work for it. You are welcome to your opinion that reducing mobility will be a third possible way to do this, but I think you're wrong. 

"Not everyone has the same skill ceiling"

Skill ceiling is a property of the game, not of the players. By "Not everyone" did you mean "Not every game"? 

7 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

It is insanely hard to find matches. With recruit conditioning off it's probably harder, because it's on by default and people don't even notice it, but yeah, the quality has increased, albeit marginally.

Recruit conditioning is not available once you are at rank 4 with Teshin. You would know this if you played more than 10 minutes. Therefore you are much more likely to find matches with recruit conditioning turned off - because that's obviously where all the conclave regulars are. Again, this is a problem with people playing 10 minutes of conclave and then coming to the forums with suggestions: It's hard to take you seriously when you keep stating incorrect information as the basis for your suggestions. At least this time you said "Probably" instead of pretending to know the facts.

7 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

I don't see how a server browser would fix the high skill requirement. Look, everyone wants to try different smaller things first. It's our human instinct. We don't like big changes and prefer small gradual changes, but this is simple: It won't work. People here have suggested tons of different changes, but all of them are just incentives, promotion, advertisement, rewards. None of them are fixed. A server browser or a training mode still won't fix the main issue. PvP is not appealing because the requirements to play it at a fun, enjoyable level are too damn high for most people. Minor modifications that make PvP more noticeable but don't fix the basic mechanics that make it unappealing will only result in small temporal upticks of players followed by a return to the old almost abandoned state.

Okay, if you want to know how a server browser could fix these problems, please see the multitude of threads in this forum about them. I'm not about to re-explain them all here for you when you can use the search function yourself. Your statements here clearly show that you have not read them.

7 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

Yeah, but if you notice your plug is sparking, perhaps it's not the light-bulb, but alright, you change the lightbulb and the plug is still sparking and everyone around you notices that an tells you to fix it, but no, you'll better change the lightbulb again just in case the new one you've bought is defective, and if that doesn't work you change the lamp, but the plug is still sparking, maybe buy another lamp? Look, we all want to fix stuff the cheap and easy way first and that just ends up being a massive waste of time, money and resources if the basic issue isn't addressed. No, when the issue is so glaringly obvious, small fixes just won't cut it.

You're right that the abyss can't be crossed in micro-steps. But you're assuming that it is an abyss. Since we don't know for sure, surely we should at least try the smaller fixes first. (Keyword: try) If the small fixes don't work, then we can talk about more drastic measures. But at this point we haven't even tried them yet. So your analogy is false, we haven't tried changing the lightbulb yet.

7 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

I won't deny that experience gives perspective, but also brings a lot of stubbornness. The more time you've invested in something, even if the concept is originally flawed, the less likely you're to accept new changes, and the bigger then changes the higher one rejects them. Sure, new players might be wrong, but maybe they are damn right and knowledgeable or smart enough to analyze a situation, identify the problem and come up with a solution, only to be dismissed because "not enough experience". That's actually a plague in modern society, not just this particular game tbh. I prefer to hear everyone out and reply with an argument and an explanation of why they're right or wrong than dismissing their idead outright just because they are new. sure, I haven't invested 200 hours in conclave, but I have several hours under my belt as well as knowledge from many more games, and this is not the first PvE oriented game I encounter that has issues with making a serviceable PvP mode. The reason is always the same: they try to apply PvE logic and mechanics to PvP and that simply doesn't work.

I'm not sure how many times I have to explain this. I'm not rejecting your idea because you're new. I'm rejecting it because it's been discussed before. You're not being dismissed because of "not enough experience," you're being dismissed because "oh, this topic again..." Honestly, if they do reduce mobility, I'll still have fun with conclave. It'll change the playstyle, sure, and make it less unique. That's primarily why we resist it. But I enjoy the game enough that I'll keep playing with the reduced mobility. 

"only to be dismissed because "not enough experience". That's actually a plague in modern society"

Careful here, I think the plague in modern society is the other way around - People are too happy to accept what an inexperienced person says if it aligns with what they want to be true. This is how we get antivax, flat earth people, etc...

7 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

You should then analyze why we're repeating the past. When the same issue is brought to attention by so many disconnected people over time, perhaps there is a lingering problem that should be addressed there.

Yeah, I've analyzed it. We're repeating the past because another person has tried conclave one time and decided that it's too fast, because they haven't figured out how to anticipate people's mobility yet. Where's 7LetterKWord with the wheel of bad conclave feedback? Someone have that picture still?

[MystMan]

A big flaw in the Armored Core comparison is that you couldn't (over)boost forever, you had to take breaks and recharge your boosting power or be forced in a long cooldown session without being able to boost if you allowed yourself to overheat, making yourself very vulnerable.  In Warframe there is no such limitation, you can bulletjump forever. Bringing back the stamina bar exclusively for conclave would make much more sense and make it more comparable in line with other contemporary more populated pvp games.

And the TTK in Armored Core is much higher since we're talking about giant mechs. Also, there are massive missile barrages that auto-lock and seek you out, something Warframe  doesn't have. (Nyx' psychic bolts is the closest thing and you can't spam that).

[ByroSphere]

4 hours ago, MystMan said:

A big flaw in the Armored Core comparison is that you couldn't (over)boost forever, you had to take breaks and recharge your boosting power or be forced in a long cooldown session without being able to boost if you allowed yourself to overheat, making yourself very vulnerable.  In Warframe there is no such limitation, you can bulletjump forever. Bringing back the stamina bar exclusively for conclave would make much more sense and make it more comparable in line with other contemporary more populated pvp games.

And the TTK in Armored Core is much higher since we're talking about giant mechs. Also, there are massive missile barrages that auto-lock and seek you out, something Warframe  doesn't have. (Nyx' psychic bolts is the closest thing and you can't spam that).

You may not over boost consecutively in Armored Core as a whole, but in the For Answer game (which is kinda an od case in the franchise, and my main example), you can practically spam the boost in small bursts so long there is at least a second long break between each of them. Warframe’s Bullet jump is similar, in that you can spam it in specific conditions (after a wall jump or when landing on ground), but in general you can only bullet jump once in midair, while since this is the most reliable way to avoid fire and cover long distances, players tend to always use up this jump early on.

It might seem op as of now, because most weapons needs multiple hits to be lethal, when the bullet jumps allows you to completely avoid most weapons projectiles with extreme ease, even to the extent that you can pretty much follow your opponents with the crosshairs with almost none of the bullets hitting cause the area the projectiles cover compared to the opponent’s mobility, is too small.

As I pointed out before, there are ways to deal with these erratically manuverable opponents without needing to become super perceptive, and the trick is; to not deal with them when they are moving erratically.

The thing about moving so fast and unpredictable that barely anyone can hit you, is that it becomes nearly impossible for you to shoot as well, making the conclave’s dynamic become something along the lines of “be unpredictable but aim crap, or be predictable but pull your weight”.

But since the game doesn’t exactly point this out, while the newbes who decides to quit after a couple matches generally lacks the interest to seek up guides from veterans, I guess the gameplay needs to make some changes after all.

Now, the reason why I want to include some form of aim correction instead of slowing the gameplay or restricting the movements, isn’t just because it would make the speed viable for PvP, but it would also make it so that brains are required to be able to avoid getting killed with the bullet jumps/rolls and slides remaining the same.

As the game is right now, it’s so mind numbingly easy to avoid getting killed, that noobs will have trouble to even kill other newbes, while it’s fairily difficult to get any kills, because the “impossible shots” are like the only things that requires considerable skills in conclave. Making it so that newbes are only successful at running away but otherwise incapable at gaining much if any kills, while veterans remain unchallenged either because they are skilled enough to pull off “impossible shots”, or have enough experience to know that you should time your assaults to when your opponents aren’t moving crazily.

If the none-1hk weapons covered a wider area than just the size of tiny bullets (which it would  have if the guns had a wide aim correction box tied to the crosshairs) then players would need not only skill to evade, but also the experience to time your jumps and rolls effectively with their natural limits. This would mean that noobs who got neither will die a lot, but they will also kill much more often, since now they not only would shoot down noobs who try to run away, but they also could take down veterans who were too careless. And well, it’s far more rewarding to kill even when you die a lot, than it is to survive a whole game without killing anybody.

But for the Auto Aim Correction to work well, the Warframes needs to be made at least as fast as in PvE, because if everyone moves too slow, then everyone would kill everyone before anyone has a chance to react with the AAC... And I want the speed instead of slow down, because what is the point of a PvP mode for a game if it doesn’t feel as fluid and quick as in its PvE modes?

Edited October 24, 2019 by ByroSphere

[OGsouth]

On 2019-10-21 at 4:07 PM, ixidron92 said:

I think your post just made it quite clear why people play it just a few times and quit. PvP games need to be accessible to anyone, not just people with mad skills.

My profile doesn't seem to update or anything, because I'm not a silver initiate, and that is not my current icon. I play conclave (when possible, because it's a desert in the EU server and it's usually 2-3 players in a single match. I want to point out how insanely hard is to find a match. Wait times can be as long as 30 minutes just to play with another player, and the max I've ever had in a game were 4 other people).

The warframe mobility system is insane. I've never seen any shooter with something remotely close to it, let alone a popular, functional PvP shooter. Heck, not even rocket jumping with the soldier in TF2 compares to it, or even the maddening speed of Quake. You have to understand that a game that functions (or in this case a gamemode) is a game that is accessible to a wide variety of people, from the lowly unskilled casual newbie to the hardcore pro-shooter that plays tournaments for money. You can't have Conclave based around those with insane hand-eye coordination. I am accustomed to playing high mobility classes in PvP shooters, and that's actually my style and yeah, since I know how to move because I have experience from those games, I feel like cheating in conclave.

If you see people complaining about it, people quitting because of the stupidity, you can't simply defend a gamemode that fails just because a few elitists say that "it's the way it's meant to be played and shouldn't be changed and you have no right to complain until you get to our level. Git gud scrub." Sorry but that's not how the world works. Experience matters, but that doesn't mean legitimate concerns should be dismissed just because that guy is less experienced.

 

As someone who plays conclave a good amount, i can really see both sides of this arguement. For me, i think there needs to be a better ranking system, but thats the flaw right there.. we dont even have enough players online in conclave to seperate anything into ranks, so all skill levels are stuck together with each other.

I enjoy skilled lobbies. But new players dont. And recruit conditioning doesnt really cut it, its almost like theres only 2 ranks. 

..but adding more ranks makes lobbies even more scarce. So IMO the only "solution" needed for conclave is to either

1. Find ways to bring in new players, and better ways tk educate people on mobility, etc.

2. Leave it as it is

 

Any option other than these 2 doesnt work in the eyes of DE, because they need insentive to work on conclave and the only incentive is more players joining.. 

Im putting it really simply but thats how i see it

[ixidron92]

hace 5 minutos, OGsouth dijo:

As someone who plays conclave a good amount, i can really see both sides of this arguement. For me, i think there needs to be a better ranking system, but thats the flaw right there.. we dont even have enough players online in conclave to seperate anything into ranks, so all skill levels are stuck together with each other.

I enjoy skilled lobbies. But new players dont. And recruit conditioning doesnt really cut it, its almost like theres only 2 ranks. 

..but adding more ranks makes lobbies even more scarce. So IMO the only "solution" needed for conclave is to either

1. Find ways to bring in new players, and better ways tk educate people on mobility, etc.

2. Leave it as it is

 

Any option other than these 2 doesnt work in the eyes of DE, because they need insentive to work on conclave and the only incentive is more players joining.. 

Im putting it really simply but thats how i see it

Well, DE is a rare example among developing teams. They are willing to scrap an entire system and rebuild it from scratch, which so far, seems almost unique for developers. A big mainline overhaul of the whole PvP system after a couple of devstreams is bound to attract players, not to mention those disgruntled with the current system might give it another chance.

[ixidron92]

En 24/10/2019 a las 3:44, MystMan dijo:

A big flaw in the Armored Core comparison is that you couldn't (over)boost forever, you had to take breaks and recharge your boosting power or be forced in a long cooldown session without being able to boost if you allowed yourself to overheat, making yourself very vulnerable.  In Warframe there is no such limitation, you can bulletjump forever. Bringing back the stamina bar exclusively for conclave would make much more sense and make it more comparable in line with other contemporary more populated pvp games.

And the TTK in Armored Core is much higher since we're talking about giant mechs. Also, there are massive missile barrages that auto-lock and seek you out, something Warframe  doesn't have. (Nyx' psychic bolts is the closest thing and you can't spam that).

 

En 24/10/2019 a las 7:46, ByroSphere dijo:

You may not over boost consecutively in Armored Core as a whole, but in the For Answer game (which is kinda an od case in the franchise, and my main example), you can practically spam the boost in small bursts so long there is at least a second long break between each of them. Warframe’s Bullet jump is similar, in that you can spam it in specific conditions (after a wall jump or when landing on ground), but in general you can only bullet jump once in midair, while since this is the most reliable way to avoid fire and cover long distances, players tend to always use up this jump early on.

It might seem op as of now, because most weapons needs multiple hits to be lethal, when the bullet jumps allows you to completely avoid most weapons projectiles with extreme ease, even to the extent that you can pretty much follow your opponents with the crosshairs with almost none of the bullets hitting cause the area the projectiles cover compared to the opponent’s mobility, is too small.

As I pointed out before, there are ways to deal with these erratically manuverable opponents without needing to become super perceptive, and the trick is; to not deal with them when they are moving erratically.

The thing about moving so fast and unpredictable that barely anyone can hit you, is that it becomes nearly impossible for you to shoot as well, making the conclave’s dynamic become something along the lines of “be unpredictable but aim crap, or be predictable but pull your weight”.

But since the game doesn’t exactly point this out, while the newbes who decides to quit after a couple matches generally lacks the interest to seek up guides from veterans, I guess the gameplay needs to make some changes after all.

Now, the reason why I want to include some form of aim correction instead of slowing the gameplay or restricting the movements, isn’t just because it would make the speed viable for PvP, but it would also make it so that brains are required to be able to avoid getting killed with the bullet jumps/rolls and slides remaining the same.

As the game is right now, it’s so mind numbingly easy to avoid getting killed, that noobs will have trouble to even kill other newbes, while it’s fairily difficult to get any kills, because the “impossible shots” are like the only things that requires considerable skills in conclave. Making it so that newbes are only successful at running away but otherwise incapable at gaining much if any kills, while veterans remain unchallenged either because they are skilled enough to pull off “impossible shots”, or have enough experience to know that you should time your assaults to when your opponents aren’t moving crazily.

If the none-1hk weapons covered a wider area than just the size of tiny bullets (which it would  have if the guns had a wide aim correction box tied to the crosshairs) then players would need not only skill to evade, but also the experience to time your jumps and rolls effectively with their natural limits. This would mean that noobs who got neither will die a lot, but they will also kill much more often, since now they not only would shoot down noobs who try to run away, but they also could take down veterans who were too careless. And well, it’s far more rewarding to kill even when you die a lot, than it is to survive a whole game without killing anybody.

But for the Auto Aim Correction to work well, the Warframes needs to be made at least as fast as in PvE, because if everyone moves too slow, then everyone would kill everyone before anyone has a chance to react with the AAC... And I want the speed instead of slow down, because what is the point of a PvP mode for a game if it doesn’t feel as fluid and quick as in its PvE modes?

Armored core is a console (and mobile) exclusive game, so of course, there are tons of aim assists and lock on features, but remember that the game is built with that in mind from the very beginning and it makes sense in the setting. the aim assist/lock on features are integrated and explained, since they are mechs and have that technology, not to mention, the massive mobility calls for those features.

Here in Warframe we have no basis for aim assist, and to be honest, what makes mobility so freaking obnoxious is the way you can chain it. One bullet jump in open terrain won't save you from someone with good aim, but in some maps like Cephalon citadel and Mars, where you can bounce, bullet jump, gale kick and repeat ad nauseam, easily escaping thanks to that massive labyrinth of walls and pillars.

It is too easy to avoid getting killed, but not because some people can't track you - which sure, some people just can't because their skill and coordination will never be enough - but because it's so easy to lose you. You can't pull that S#&$ off in Lua's main room for example.

Aim assist is not the way to go, and it shouldn't be the way to go in any shooter, to be honest. It's just a cheap patch, not a real fix. Helping newbies hit veterans by artificial means is only gonna cause problems. 

Instead, mobility should be reduced so new players have a chance to have fun and learn the game, acquire skill and experience and eventually pull off more complicated maneuvers themselves.

I still believe that many small fixes that only serve to promote the game mode instead of fixing the main issue that makes it so undesirable and unfun to play will only serve as temporary stopgap measures. Sure, you'll get a slight uptick of players - because promotion (duh) - and then you'll lose those players again. now, I don't say those things aren't gonna help at all, they would be welcomed changes, but first, one have to tackle the issue, make Conclave worthwhile playing and then implement those tweaks to make it appealing.

Pretty much everyone agrees that mobility is the issue (in some way or another) alongside the P2P connection giving the advantage to the host (which, seriously DE, that has to stop. we need dedicated servers).

With enough support here on the forums, we can get that changed.

[ByroSphere]

5 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

Armored core is a console (and mobile) exclusive game, so of course, there are tons of aim assists and lock on features, but remember that the game is built with that in mind from the very beginning and it makes sense in the setting. the aim assist/lock on features are integrated and explained, since they are mechs and have that technology, not to mention, the massive mobility calls for those features.

Here in Warframe we have no basis for aim assist, and to be honest, what makes mobility so freaking obnoxious is the way you can chain it. One bullet jump in open terrain won't save you from someone with good aim, but in some maps like Cephalon citadel and Mars, where you can bounce, bullet jump, gale kick and repeat ad nauseam, easily escaping thanks to that massive labyrinth of walls and pillars.

It is too easy to avoid getting killed, but not because some people can't track you - which sure, some people just can't because their skill and coordination will never be enough - but because it's so easy to lose you. You can't pull that S#&$ off in Lua's main room for example.

Aim assist is not the way to go, and it shouldn't be the way to go in any shooter, to be honest. It's just a cheap patch, not a real fix. Helping newbies hit veterans by artificial means is only gonna cause problems. 

Do you know why Console games have aim assist more often than PC games? It's because it's harder to track targets with a joystick than it is to do it with a mouse. You say that it's easy to avoid getting killed not because it's hard to track but because it's easy to lose [the target].... But here is the thing, you lose sight of the target because it is hard to track them.

The Warframes naturally have too much manueverability to be tracked even with the accuracy of a mouse control, so slowing the gameplay down would be an "artificial" solution in of itself, because you are using a factor outside of gameplay to tune things down. And from what I can see, another slow down on mobility alone, would come with more issues than fixes, because the manueverability will not feel smooth (I mean, it already feels painfully heavy as is, and you want it to go even slower), while projectiles will remain lightning fast even if the warframes themselves are no longer so.

Newbes will definitly have an easier time hitting everyone, but that's because by that point the mobility has been nerfed so much  that no one can dodge anything anymore. And unlike cover shooters, there barely are any covers on Conclave to protect you from the fire, so if you are unable to dodge, then you are dunked. They wont be learning any new manuevers, because no manuever is fast enough to survive the hail of projectiles.

Aim assist may be "artificial", but unlike *another* simple slow down, it actually would add onto the dynamic that Warframe has going on. Because then you can actually maintain a better level of tracking even as you are performing parkour. While at the same time you will die often if you are not careful with how you jump, because people can now kill you even as you dash around like a headless chicken. Newbes will have fun getting easy kills while still enjoying the rush that comes with a fast gameplay, while veterans will be incentivized to look for more ways other than random jumping to be on top with the fewest deaths possible. That would lead to the creation of new manuevers, not the slow down that trivializes manueverability.

[Datskin]

I played conclave just the enough time to reach the lvl of a noob, and even that i bet is more than the average of players actually play it, with this introduction of myself i would like to ask to conclave veterans, bcz like someone said above, they have the perspective to find solutions. Since Complexity and Movility is the matter here. What do you think about a paralel mode with Operator pvp? (original idea from a fellow tenno lorisey).

Edited October 26, 2019 by Datskin

[Tyreaus]

17 minutes ago, Datskin said:

I played conclave just the enough time to reach the lvl of a noob, and even that i bet is more than the average of players actually play it, with this introduction of myself i would like to ask to conclave veterans, bcz like someone said above, they have the perspective to find solutions. Since Complexity and Movility is the matter here. What do you think about a paralel mode with Operator pvp? (original idea from a fellow tenno lorisey).

There's a few big problems with Operator Conclave:

1. Abilities go out the window (since they're tied to Warframes)
2. Operator abilities (invisibility, dashing, etc.) and Focus tree stuff would probably have to be A: removed or B: adjusted for Conclave, or else people who've gone through Focus trees are going to be much more powerful
3. People have to get past The War Within to play that form of PvP, and if it's the only form of PvP, that's cutting out part of the audience.
4. Spoiler

   Current operators are probably too small to wield a number of Warframe weapons without some weird resizing stuff going on - plus it throws up some questions regarding their strength, esp. with things like Daikyu

5. Does it actually solve the mobility issue when Void Dashing is still a thing? It'd improve the walljump-chaining part, but I can also see the mobility becoming quite hectic (esp. with latency) with what basically becomes teleporting all over the place.

I mean, with the Duviri Paradox coming along and possibly introducing new Operators, it's possible they could try it with an event to see how people like it. It wouldn't be that difficult to disable focus trees and arcanes and take out the invisibility + invulnerability of void mode. But I don't think it'd be a worthy replacement of what we have.

[Datskin]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

There's a few big problems with Operator Conclave:

1. Abilities go out the window (since they're tied to Warframes)
2. Operator abilities (invisibility, dashing, etc.) and Focus tree stuff would probably have to be A: removed or B: adjusted for Conclave, or else people who've gone through Focus trees are going to be much more powerful
3. People have to get past The War Within to play that form of PvP, and if it's the only form of PvP, that's cutting out part of the audience.
4.   Reveal hidden contents

   Current operators are probably too small to wield a number of Warframe weapons without some weird resizing stuff going on - plus it throws up some questions regarding their strength, esp. with things like Daikyu

5. Does it actually solve the mobility issue when Void Dashing is still a thing? It'd improve the walljump-chaining part, but I can also see the mobility becoming quite hectic (esp. with latency) with what basically becomes teleporting all over the place.

I mean, with the Duviri Paradox coming along and possibly introducing new Operators, it's possible they could try it with an event to see how people like it. It wouldn't be that difficult to disable focus trees and arcanes and take out the invisibility + invulnerability of void mode. But I don't think it'd be a worthy replacement of what we have.

I pretty sure i didnt mention a replacement from what we have already, and yes, the idea goes in the way  with the Duviri Paradox and the future of operators, i think it has potential and ofc would be loot of changes, but hey we are theorizing, it's an idea to fantasize about. 

[Tyreaus]

49 minutes ago, Datskin said:

I pretty sure i didnt mention a replacement from what we have already, and yes, the idea goes in the way  with the Duviri Paradox and the future of operators, i think it has potential and ofc would be loot of changes, but hey we are theorizing, it's an idea to fantasize about. 

You didn't, but I wanted to cover that as a point to be sure. As I said, it could be a fun little event - they've had bow-only Conclave events before - or a new game mode altogether. I just wouldn't dismiss issues brought up by threads like this based on an Operator-only Conclave mode existing.

In short: not necessarily a bad idea as an add-on, but doesn't fix the problem.

[ixidron92]

En 26/10/2019 a las 22:40, Datskin dijo:

I played conclave just the enough time to reach the lvl of a noob, and even that i bet is more than the average of players actually play it, with this introduction of myself i would like to ask to conclave veterans, bcz like someone said above, they have the perspective to find solutions. Since Complexity and Movility is the matter here. What do you think about a paralel mode with Operator pvp? (original idea from a fellow tenno lorisey).

 

En 26/10/2019 a las 23:09, Tyreaus dijo:

There's a few big problems with Operator Conclave:

1. Abilities go out the window (since they're tied to Warframes)
2. Operator abilities (invisibility, dashing, etc.) and Focus tree stuff would probably have to be A: removed or B: adjusted for Conclave, or else people who've gone through Focus trees are going to be much more powerful
3. People have to get past The War Within to play that form of PvP, and if it's the only form of PvP, that's cutting out part of the audience.
4.   Revelar contenido oculto

   Current operators are probably too small to wield a number of Warframe weapons without some weird resizing stuff going on - plus it throws up some questions regarding their strength, esp. with things like Daikyu

5. Does it actually solve the mobility issue when Void Dashing is still a thing? It'd improve the walljump-chaining part, but I can also see the mobility becoming quite hectic (esp. with latency) with what basically becomes teleporting all over the place.

I mean, with the Duviri Paradox coming along and possibly introducing new Operators, it's possible they could try it with an event to see how people like it. It wouldn't be that difficult to disable focus trees and arcanes and take out the invisibility + invulnerability of void mode. But I don't think it'd be a worthy replacement of what we have.

I do like the idea of operator conclave, and it could work (and probably better than warframe PvP). I mean, people are excited about adult operators using guns, and the fact that they all have the same 4 abilities and mobility is limited could make it work pretty nicely. You'd have to rebalance operator energy, of course. You can't have one dude spending a minute in stealth or void dashing 300 times. At best, I think operator energy should recharge slower and you could dash like twice with a full pool or spend 3-5 seconds in void mode.

About the arcanes and focus trees. I think they should all be unlocked and adjusted for PvP (or make new  PvP arcanes or get rid of that system entirely. Like mods, it's complexity for the sake of complexity and is best to avoid them).

Best would be to give X conclave focus points so players could make their own builds however they like. Say, you get like 20 conclave focus points and each node of the focus tree costs 1 point and you can do as many different builds as you want, saving them as laodouts and resetting them for free. Of course, all amp pieces are unlocked by default and you can edit your amp and make as many loadouts as you want as well, without restrictions.

[Tyreaus]

17 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

 

I do like the idea of operator conclave, and it could work (and probably better than warframe PvP). I mean, people are excited about adult operators using guns, and the fact that they all have the same 4 abilities and mobility is limited could make it work pretty nicely. You'd have to rebalance operator energy, of course. You can't have one dude spending a minute in stealth or void dashing 300 times. At best, I think operator energy should recharge slower and you could dash like twice with a full pool or spend 3-5 seconds in void mode.

About the arcanes and focus trees. I think they should all be unlocked and adjusted for PvP (or make new  PvP arcanes or get rid of that system entirely. Like mods, it's complexity for the sake of complexity and is best to avoid them).

Best would be to give X conclave focus points so players could make their own builds however they like. Say, you get like 20 conclave focus points and each node of the focus tree costs 1 point and you can do as many different builds as you want, saving them as laodouts and resetting them for free. Of course, all amp pieces are unlocked by default and you can edit your amp and make as many loadouts as you want as well, without restrictions.

If it's going to be successful, I think it needs a spoiler-free aesthetic. So probably using things like rescue targets for player designs before said players reach Duviri. _{Maybe a bit misleading in a way, but it allows everyone to hop in at their leisure, and TWW ties together the mechanics.}

I just want to emphasize making an event out of it first to test it out. Something with a generic amp, generic player models (rescue targets, e.g., so everyone can take part), and a couple of number tweaks. Everything else can be added on later if it turns out people like it. The less time it takes to demo, the less unappealing the risk is.

As far as improvements or changes beyond that initial stage, I'd like it if Operators got a few "proper" weapon models instead of just amps. Keep them void powered and have them deal void damage, but it'd be nice to have an actual primary / secondary / melee in the mix. _{The Conclave skins could be used for those, FWIW...}

I also think void mode is a bit too static. It would likely work better keeping it as a slide function and keeping rolling and double-jumping as-is. I don't think those are too egregious as far as mobility goes, but they retain fluidity.

And having damage sounds would be good, I think, and they'd fit with Operators. I feel Conclave has an almost famous issue that you can't tell you're taking damage until the shield-break sounds off, at which point you're dead from a Lex.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Tyreaus

[ixidron92]

hace 6 horas, Tyreaus dijo:

If it's going to be successful, I think it needs a spoiler-free aesthetic. So probably using things like rescue targets for player designs before said players reach Duviri. _{Maybe a bit misleading in a way, but it allows everyone to hop in at their leisure, and TWW ties together the mechanics.}

I just want to emphasize making an event out of it first to test it out. Something with a generic amp, generic player models (rescue targets, e.g., so everyone can take part), and a couple of number tweaks. Everything else can be added on later if it turns out people like it. The less time it takes to demo, the less unappealing the risk is.

As far as improvements or changes beyond that initial stage, I'd like it if Operators got a few "proper" weapon models instead of just amps. Keep them void powered and have them deal void damage, but it'd be nice to have an actual primary / secondary / melee in the mix. _{The Conclave skins could be used for those, FWIW...}

I also think void mode is a bit too static. It would likely work better keeping it as a slide function and keeping rolling and double-jumping as-is. I don't think those are too egregious as far as mobility goes, but they retain fluidity.

And having damage sounds would be good, I think, and they'd fit with Operators. I feel Conclave has an almost famous issue that you can't tell you're taking damage until the shield-break sounds off, at which point you're dead from a Lex.

In the meantime, a functional operator PvP could be implemented quite easily. With less stuff to dealt with in terms of abilities and weapons, it should be easier to balance. Of course, everything should be unlocked from the very beginning. About focus trees, that system can be implemented later on.

Another interesting idea would be a class based Grineer vs Corpus PvP mode. Playing as a grunt of either faction. Both have a counterpart in almost a 1:1 fashion when it comes to grunts and weapons, and there's a lot of customization there to be marketed.

[Datskin]

8 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

In the meantime, a functional operator PvP could be implemented quite easily. With less stuff to dealt with in terms of abilities and weapons, it should be easier to balance. Of course, everything should be unlocked from the very beginning. About focus trees, that system can be implemented later on.

Another interesting idea would be a class based Grineer vs Corpus PvP mode. Playing as a grunt of either faction. Both have a counterpart in almost a 1:1 fashion when it comes to grunts and weapons, and there's a lot of customization there to be marketed.

Actually, that is a great idea, I even like it better than the operator's idea, in case there were a lack of players in a tournament, adding bots to the game would not be so terrible.
Vodyanoi units vs Index units, there is no need to remodel maps to adjust them to operator limitations, it is a more realistic idea. I like it.

[Tyreaus]

11 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

Another interesting idea would be a class based Grineer vs Corpus PvP mode. Playing as a grunt of either faction. Both have a counterpart in almost a 1:1 fashion when it comes to grunts and weapons, and there's a lot of customization there to be marketed.

TBH, I'm not a fan. It's unwieldy to fit into the lore (neither have Transference bolts and what involvement would Teshin have?), there's questions about hitboxes (Grineer grunts don't really have head hitboxes from behind) and weapons (Grineer is hitscan, Corpus is less so), it doesn't really mesh back into PvE mechanics the same way Operator PvP would mesh into Focus trees and using the Operator, and I don't feel the same modification potential would exist. You could have PvP Focus nodes or mods that grant Operators Warframe-like mobility (bullet-jumping especially) at heavy energy costs and constant aerial energy drains so it can only happen in short bursts—something that could branch out into PvE, if it's a tradeable mod—but since neither Grineer nor Corpus can Void-dash, that doesn't really translate. It's likely also limiting mobility too much (at least Operator mode has void dashes) and turning it into much more of a tactical shooter style. Current maps wouldn't facilitate that a whole lot, while they can still work with limited Tenno-like mobility.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Tyreaus

[ixidron92]

hace 3 minutos, Tyreaus dijo:

TBH, I'm not a fan. It's unwieldy to fit into the lore (neither have Transference bolts and what involvement would Teshin have?), there's questions about hitboxes (Grineer grunts don't really have head hitboxes from behind) and weapons (Grineer is hitscan, Corpus is less so), it doesn't really mesh back into PvE mechanics the same way Operator PvP would mesh into Focus trees and using the Operator, and I don't feel the same modification potential would exist. You could have PvP Focus nodes or mods that grant Operators Warframe-like mobility (bullet-jumping especially) at heavy energy costs and constant aerial energy drains so it can only happen in short bursts, but since neither Grineer nor Corpus can Void-dash, that doesn't really translate. It's likely also limiting mobility too much (at least Operator mode has void dashes) and turning it into much more of a tactical shooter style. Current maps wouldn't facilitate that a whole lot, while they can still work with limited Tenno-like mobility.

That problem would be solved with Executioners vs Brokers, as executioners do have full head hitboxes and both have mobility abilities among others, It'll be asymmetrical balance, but achievable.

It could work in arena and index maps, which are already built with brokers/executioners in mind and are small PvP like maps. As for the lore side, say you're possessing them We've already seen operators possessing stuff. Or if that's too far fetched, say it's a way Nef has to settle a dispute and has invited the Tenno as arbiters. While your operator wouldn't be in direct control one can say they are just spectating and add some suspension of disbelief to justify the player controlling what used to be an enemy. 

[Tyreaus]

1 minute ago, ixidron92 said:

It could work in arena and index maps, which are already built with brokers/executioners in mind and are small PvP like maps.

They're very much built more for Tenno, not for the enemies (at least the ones on foot that never reach the verticality the maps actually have).

Also, the rest still leaves Teshin out. It's also A: comparatively more work and B: questionably difficult to balance since it is asymmetrical. And it doesn't address projectile speeds. Or the potential mesh with PvE. Or the flat-out weirdness of not playing Tenno (since they can't possess just any organic thing - it's what Transference bolts are for).

Like I said before, "The less time it takes to demo, the less unappealing the risk is."