Feedback: The reason why Conclave fails (and how to fix)

[ixidron92]

hace 2 minutos, Tyreaus dijo:

They're very much built more for Tenno, not for the enemies (at least the ones on foot that never reach the verticality the maps actually have).

Also, the rest still leaves Teshin out. It's also A: comparatively more work and B: questionably difficult to balance since it is asymmetrical. And it doesn't address projectile speeds. Or the potential mesh with PvE. Or the flat-out weirdness of not playing Tenno (since they can't possess just any organic thing - it's what Transference bolts are for).

Like I said before, "The less time it takes to demo, the less unappealing the risk is."

Pretty much the entire system is in place. The mechanic for players to control other things that aren't warframes/operators exists, all the models, maps and textures as well. All you'd have to do is balance the stuff and create the new mode, which is arguably, even less work than making an entire PvP revamp. 

As for Teshin, you can say he's the coordinator of the event, summoned as an impartial judge.

[Tyreaus]

19 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

All you'd have to do is balance the stuff and create the new mode

Which, as I said, is likely more complex because of it being asymmetrical. You have to balance armour versus shields to start with. Also, different-sized hitboxes likely require different EHP values, and not all executioners / brokers are the same size. Also, hitscan versus projectile weapons. This is demonstrably more work than setting everyone to 250HP / 50 armour with the same model size, double the energy cost, half the regen rate, and equipping them with, say, a 113 Amp (maybe 143 - can just pick one) with crit + status turned off.

Also, I should point out: the whole "possessing things" is TWW spoilers. Maybe Second Dream. So those would probably end up gating it if you kept that lore in.

EDIT 2: Also, cosmetics. They map to Operators just fine. They don't map to Grineer / Corpus units quite the same way.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Tyreaus

[(XBOX)N00BICIDE777]

I do enjoy Conclave.

I agree that it needs a rework, however movement is a major feature to warframe, and i see no problem with it in the "Clave"

I belive that more "party"modes will provide better playability to Concalve. Think about it, a Juggernaut styiled game mode or somthing on the lines of Infection.

Maby A more classic styile of game mode players can use custom warframes, however Health, Armour and Shields are at a set amount. While Powers and Weapons are pickups.

Given DE has history in Unreal T.       I Imagine this might not be to difficult for them.

 

I Commonly hear about conclave players being Toxic. However i rarely see it these days.   More of less ive seen more hostility from the PvE side of the game, just the other day i saw a Mr20 tell a Mr7 that they "best bow noob" or "hurry up peasents your being carried"

Compaired to Eidilon hunts, ive seen better manners in Conclave.

 

Remember when warframe had a better playerbase? one that wasnt overun by Egomaniacs? I do, and i want to go back.

Edited November 4, 2019 by (XB1)N00BICIDE777

[Miyabi-sama]

В 05.11.2019 в 01:17, (XB1)N00BICIDE777 сказал:

Remember when warframe had a better playerbase? one that wasnt overun by Egomaniacs? I do, and i want to go back.

F@#k I'm crying now.

[MysticDragonMage]

agreeing with the OP on this one without hesitation.

i suck at this game mode, i will confess that. but i dont think even that should matter. its not that i dont want to play because i'm bad. i've played great pvp games for years i was bad at. i just dont want to play because i just dont see any point in progressing or dedicating so much time (and apparently it demands A LOT of your time). yes, even if PvP offeres free weapon slots and warframe slots, i still do not want to play. even if it offers what is admittedly the greatest syandanna in the game, i still dont want to progress.

i dipped my toe into this godforsaken abyss and new that it was not worth my time. i dont see what elitists expect from others when they say "spend more time in conclave and give it a chance."

do you expect us to have fun long term? or, do you expect us to result to cheesy tactics hoping that we would be either tempted by the high quality rewards or the pleasure of stomping newb players and telling them to git gud? i wish it were the first.

[Kontrollo]

7 hours ago, MysticDragonMage said:

agreeing with the OP on this one without hesitation.

i suck at this game mode, i will confess that. but i dont think even that should matter. its not that i dont want to play because i'm bad. i've played great pvp games for years i was bad at. i just dont want to play because i just dont see any point in progressing or dedicating so much time (and apparently it demands A LOT of your time). yes, even if PvP offeres free weapon slots and warframe slots, i still do not want to play. even if it offers what is admittedly the greatest syandanna in the game, i still dont want to progress.

i dipped my toe into this godforsaken abyss and new that it was not worth my time. i dont see what elitists expect from others when they say "spend more time in conclave and give it a chance."

do you expect us to have fun long term? or, do you expect us to result to cheesy tactics hoping that we would be either tempted by the high quality rewards or the pleasure of stomping newb players and telling them to git gud? i wish it were the first.

First of all, you probably want to drop generalisations & label people who like to play it as "elitists". That kind of attitude is not very endearing.

Second, how much have you actually played it? If you're completely new, enable Recruit Conditioning and give that a go. There's a hard separation between those who have it enabled and the rest. The check box disappears with Conclave rank 3.

Also, if you want to get a proper introduction, Jad and some others usually do Schoolbus sessions on Friday evenings on the community Discord.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Kontrollo
embetterment

[ixidron92]

En 23/11/2019 a las 10:34, Kontrollo dijo:

First of all, you probably want to drop generalisations & label people who like to play it as "elitists". That kind of attitude is not very endearing.

Second, how much have you actually played it? If you're completely new, enable Recruit Conditioning and give that a go. There's a hard separation between those who have it enabled and the rest. The check box disappears with Conclave rank 3.

Also, if you want to get a proper introduction, Jad and some others usually do Schoolbus sessions on Friday evenings on the community Discord.

Still, you've got to admit there's been several complains about toxic behavior against new players. The fact that Conclave requires far more skill than the average PvP games is another problem to consider. Like I said, this can't be a gamemode pandered only to the most hardcore players, that's why it fails.

[Kontrollo]

4 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

Still, you've got to admit there's been several complains about toxic behavior against new players. The fact that Conclave requires far more skill than the average PvP games is another problem to consider. Like I said, this can't be a gamemode pandered only to the most hardcore players, that's why it fails.

I've seen complaints, yes. But I've seen complaints of bad behaviour in PvE, too. Usually, neither show chat screenshots (names blackened out of course), so it's hard to say what was really going down. Additionally, I've never even been able to play in Recruit Conditioning or on consoles, so I have no idea what it's like there, either. But somehow if there's a complaint about bad behaviour in the Conclave, you get reactions like: "hah! see? pvp is toxic, told you so."

I can tell you one thing, however, while we're talking about anecdotal evidence: I'm very much certain that I've personally had to click on the "Report Player" button way more often in PvE than in PvP.

 

Yes, skill gap/skill curve are a problem that has never been properly addressed. RC helps, but is very much just a band-aid.

I disagree with your conclusion, though. I'd say it fails because there simply isn't any dev investment anymore. Maybe go find and watch a game of how newbies fight each other. Just because the mode has a very high skill ceiling doesn't mean it can't work when people are properly matched against each other.

[Rubbertubtub01]

I love the high skill ceiling, and I love playing against players of the same skill level. So challenging and fun, there's nothing like it really.

[(PSN)MAS_Tetchedpytho]

On 2019-10-21 at 6:20 PM, Rubbertubtub01 said:

I've been saying that DE need to make all weapons / warframes available to choose from in the conclave arsenal for ages now.

But don't restrict peoples weapons to what warframe they are using, that's silly. 

IMO, DE just need to disable abilities entirely and give all the warframes the same ehp (145 shields, 110 health 110 armour maybe) with 0.9 mobility, and just have unique PvP passives on each warframe. People can choose their character based on looks / the unique passive. It will be balanced, DE can adjust weapon stats based on a single amount of ehp, no need to worry about balancing abilities. Since there will be no abilities, remove No Current Leap, and just leave the current mods for adjusting mobility, so you can stay normal, be slow and tanky, or fast and weak.

Well most weapons and warframe are too op. There’s several weapons need to be removed from conclave for being op , for example flamethrower and bows. Think the difference op and non op weapons and warframe , abilities or not mods or not. This a different balances to mods I own some of them like added zoom or less recoil but less in a single mag.

[ixidron92]

En 28/11/2019 a las 16:58, Kontrollo dijo:

I've seen complaints, yes. But I've seen complaints of bad behaviour in PvE, too. Usually, neither show chat screenshots (names blackened out of course), so it's hard to say what was really going down. Additionally, I've never even been able to play in Recruit Conditioning or on consoles, so I have no idea what it's like there, either. But somehow if there's a complaint about bad behaviour in the Conclave, you get reactions like: "hah! see? pvp is toxic, told you so."

I can tell you one thing, however, while we're talking about anecdotal evidence: I'm very much certain that I've personally had to click on the "Report Player" button way more often in PvE than in PvP.

 

Yes, skill gap/skill curve are a problem that has never been properly addressed. RC helps, but is very much just a band-aid.

I disagree with your conclusion, though. I'd say it fails because there simply isn't any dev investment anymore. Maybe go find and watch a game of how newbies fight each other. Just because the mode has a very high skill ceiling doesn't mean it can't work when people are properly matched against each other.

 

En 28/11/2019 a las 22:17, Rubbertubtub01 dijo:

I love the high skill ceiling, and I love playing against players of the same skill level. So challenging and fun, there's nothing like it really.

TBH I've never actually encountered any toxic players. Still, PvP always tends to be toxic, no matter the game, add in the fact that Conclave is just played by a select few that enjoy it and a few oblivious one that don't know the mode yet and it's a recipe for disaster.

The skill curve is a problem. There is no such thing as a baseline play, you're thrown straight into max level without time to learn,and the fact that people can have mods and weapons you do not is even worse. This is typical of p2w pvp games or just straight up disastrously developed pvp modes like this one. 

I strongly believe we need to simplify PvP a lot, making it more consistent and available to everyone, not only those few willing to spend hundreds of hours to get all the gear.

En 30/11/2019 a las 23:11, (PS4)MAS_Tetchedpytho dijo:

Well most weapons and warframe are too op. There’s several weapons need to be removed from conclave for being op , for example flamethrower and bows. Think the difference op and non op weapons and warframe , abilities or not mods or not. This a different balances to mods I own some of them like added zoom or less recoil but less in a single mag.

There are worse weapons than the ignis. Right now, melee is a problem, since they added the new changes without thinking about PvP, and then there's of course the staticor, which is almost an undodgeable nuke.

AoE weapons don't have high dps, and yeah, people who can aim will beat an ignis 10 out of 10 times with a hitscan rifle. The problem, as I mention in the OP is the crazy mobility, which makes that hitscan option available only to good players who can track like crazy, which is just a very little amount of pvp shooters. Hell, on average, accuracy for hitscan weapons in most games tends to be around 20-25%, here it's way worse if you take into account the crazy mobility.

[Kontrollo]

1 hour ago, ixidron92 said:

TBH I've never actually encountered any toxic players. Still, PvP always tends to be toxic, no matter the game, add in the fact that Conclave is just played by a select few that enjoy it and a few oblivious one that don't know the mode yet and it's a recipe for disaster.

At the risk of repeating myself again: if you encounter toxic people no matter the mode: mute and/or report, depending on mood and severity of the offence of course.

 

 

1 hour ago, ixidron92 said:

I strongly believe we need to simplify PvP a lot, making it more consistent and available to everyone, not only those few willing to spend hundreds of hours to get all the gear.

We had that, it was called Opticor Variant. They removed it from the game, no reason given. Maybe help us out in trying to bring it back? That'd be a good first step.

Also, there were events with other loadouts where everyone was on equal footing. No reason to reinvent everything yet again, they just need to bring those back.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Kontrollo

[Rubbertubtub01]

6 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

I strongly believe we need to simplify PvP a lot, making it more consistent and available to everyone, not only those few willing to spend hundreds of hours to get all the gear.

I've been saying for AGES now, that DE need to make all the weapons available for use in the Conclave arsenal... 

I've also been saying that Conclave does need some sort of SBMM, so have a lot of people. But all of these highly valuable recommendations aren't being seen by DE. And if they are being seen by DE that's even worse, cause that means that they aren't acting on it. 

[Lightel03]

 

Aside from the gameplay changes that could take place to make  conclave better, I`d like to suggest a reason for players to at least be incentivized to play conclave, since currently the rewards from this mode are weapon skins, conclave exclusive mods, exilus adapters and pre-built beginner warframes, things that most (PVE) players won`t even care about.

But by adding 30 minute boosters(credit/affinity/resource) into that mix, suddenly every player would have a reason to play conclave.

By this addition I don`t intend to force PVE players into conclave, but to offer a complement to their mainly PVE gameplay. The inclusion of boosters as rewards would finally give reason for this modes existence to the other 98% of the playerbase, while also being a nice change of pace and gameplay that will also help them in the long run.

Just because conclave is fun, it won`t mean PVE players will go play it, they need a reason to do so, and when they have it, and actually go play it, hopefully they will like it, but either way they get to acquire the boosters that will then help them with whatever grind they need to face in PVE, giving conclave a reason to be played by everyone, hopefully.

 

[Rubbertubtub01]

1 hour ago, Lightel03 said:

 

Aside from the gameplay changes that could take place to make  conclave better, I`d like to suggest a reason for players to at least be incentivized to play conclave, since currently the rewards from this mode are weapon skins, conclave exclusive mods, exilus adapters and pre-built beginner warframes, things that most (PVE) players won`t even care about.

But by adding 30 minute boosters(credit/affinity/resource) into that mix, suddenly every player would have a reason to play conclave.

By this addition I don`t intend to force PVE players into conclave, but to offer a complement to their mainly PVE gameplay. The inclusion of boosters as rewards would finally give reason for this modes existence to the other 98% of the playerbase, while also being a nice change of pace and gameplay that will also help them in the long run.

Just because conclave is fun, it won`t mean PVE players will go play it, they need a reason to do so, and when they have it, and actually go play it, hopefully they will like it, but either way they get to acquire the boosters that will then help them with whatever grind they need to face in PVE, giving conclave a reason to be played by everyone, hopefully.

 

Adding boosters sounds like a pretty alright idea actually. I like it.

The only downside I can see is that DE would have to make it a pretty rare drop so people will still spend money. 

[Tyreaus]

4 hours ago, Lightel03 said:

But by adding 30 minute boosters(credit/affinity/resource) into that mix, suddenly every player would have a reason to play conclave.

I think it would also be beneficial to take some other rewards from PvE and add them to PvP (with good drop chances, not 0.25%) as well. Forma, Riven slivers, relics - that sort of thing. Not just adding reasons to play Conclave, but taking away reasons not to play Conclave.

Because, really, "I could run a void fissure and get some Forma" or "I could play Conclave and get 100 Rubedo" doesn't tend to be a hotly contested topic for many people. On the other hand, if you can get Forma either way, you're not having to "sacrifice" that reward to play.

EDIT: Forma = Forma BP, not fully-built Forma

Edited December 4, 2019 by Tyreaus

[Kontrollo]

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I think it would also be beneficial to take some other rewards from PvE and add them to PvP (with good drop chances, not 0.25%) as well. Forma, Riven slivers, relics - that sort of thing. Not just adding reasons to play Conclave, but taking away reasons not to play Conclave.

Because, really, "I could run a void fissure and get some Forma" or "I could play Conclave and get 100 Rubedo" doesn't tend to be a hotly contested topic for many people. On the other hand, if you can get Forma either way, you're not having to "sacrifice" that reward to play.

EDIT: Forma = Forma BP, not fully-built Forma

QFT.

Interesting tidbits:

• Forma BP is in, but as mentioned, with a 0.25% drop chance it might was well not exist:
  
  
  
   
• It looks like there were plans at some point for a way to unlock Relics in PvP. Never made it in, either (from DS.cg):
  
  

[Tyreaus]

2 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

It looks like there were plans at some point for a way to unlock Relics in PvP. Never made it in, either (from DS.cg):

>Gets unlimited ammo Void buff with Twin Grakatta in Conclave
>"BRRRRRRRT"

_{Or Snipetron or Vectis or...}

Gee, I wonder why they decided against doing that. 😛

[Kontrollo]

20 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

>Gets unlimited ammo Void buff with Twin Grakatta in Conclave
>"BRRRRRRRT"

_{Or Snipetron or Vectis or...}

Gee, I wonder why they decided against doing that. 😛

Wait, are you saying moar Grakata isn't always better? 🤔

 

On another note:

14 hours ago, Lightel03 said:

Spoiler

Aside from the gameplay changes that could take place to make  conclave better, I`d like to suggest a reason for players to at least be incentivized to play conclave, since currently the rewards from this mode are weapon skins, conclave exclusive mods, exilus adapters and pre-built beginner warframes, things that most (PVE) players won`t even care about.

But by adding 30 minute boosters(credit/affinity/resource) into that mix, suddenly every player would have a reason to play conclave.

By this addition I don`t intend to force PVE players into conclave, but to offer a complement to their mainly PVE gameplay. The inclusion of boosters as rewards would finally give reason for this modes existence to the other 98% of the playerbase, while also being a nice change of pace and gameplay that will also help them in the long run.

Just because conclave is fun, it won`t mean PVE players will go play it, they need a reason to do so, and when they have it, and actually go play it, hopefully they will like it, but either way they get to acquire the boosters that will then help them with whatever grind they need to face in PVE, giving conclave a reason to be played by everyone, hopefully.

 

13 hours ago, Rubbertubtub01 said:

Adding boosters sounds like a pretty alright idea actually. I like it.

The only downside I can see is that DE would have to make it a pretty rare drop so people will still spend money. 

I don't see why this couldn't work when done right.

People have been asking for a better rewards structure in... years now? If they refuse to add that to the Conclave game modes for whatever reason, then adding very short boosters as end-of-match rewards would actually make sense. So it doesn't feel like wasting your time when you decide to hop into a PvP match between all the PvE grinding sessions the game expects you to complete.

[Xarteros]

On 2019-10-22 at 6:29 AM, ixidron92 said:

-Snip-
The new Conclave should first release with a limited starting roster. More Warframes and weapons can be added once balance is achieved. The key is to assign functional roles and release new Warframes over time.

I've been advocating for this for years now.

Limit the weapon pool to 30-40 Tenno-manufactured weapons, to cover each main weapon group and melee type with room for a little bit of variation. Having 30-40 weapons to balance is better than the literal hundreds.

Make all of these weapons available to players entering Conclave. No mastery, all of them at max rank for modding or not even having a capacity limit (since what I see of the Conclave mods is harmless enough to keep in, mostly just sidegrades rather than actual upgrades, so no real advantage beyond changing playstyle). This takes out the progression issue and the quibbles of PvPers who don't want to play PvE content

Then unify all Warframe stats to the same level, remove abilities, and replace abilities with generic 'void power' versions. Pick a number of these abilities to input with a focus on reducing ability overlap and maximising gameplay fun. Abilities can either spawn in at set points around the map, or be selectable via mods, or from terminals at the 'home base', or some other method. If desired, Warframe stats could be divided into 'classes', breaking down a Warframe's survival and ability usage into unifiable categories. The goal of which is to give DE a small allotment of Warframe/Ability stats to balance, compared to the 42 frames they've got so far, each with 4 abilities and a passive to try and keep even and fair.

Warframe is simply not designed for both PvE and PvP, and the addition of each new frame just bloats the PvP system. Conclave is meant to be a practice system to keep each other strong. Since we're not using our powers to their actual extent, it's pointless to consider it 'practice' vs the PvE enemies, so it's clearly more closely suited to a traditional sparring system. Limiting it to tenno-only weapons and having generic versions of some choice abilities (snowglobe, speed, slash dash, roar etc) gives us exactly that: A fair, balanced sparring system that doesn't require any grinding to participate in.

[Lightel03]

There have been many great ideas in this thread about what could be done to improve the gameplay of conclave, and I`d like to give my own attempt at it, and by that I mean steal some of your ideas and hopefully come up with something most of us can all agree with, so here it goes.

As a first, we should address the movement in Warframe, and how it interferes with the PVP. I do not support at all the nerf of movement in conclave, because, quite simply, half of the fun in the game is becoming good at this system, to diminish it would make this mode take away a core strenght of the game. And so the problem persists, but keep reading, I have an idea for how to fix this gameplay interference, and the balancing issues.

And that fix would be to make All warframes and weapons available to the player, but they are all already modded to a certain playstyle, and the players will not be able to mod these weapons or warframes.

Depending on how the modding of warframes and weapons is done by DE (big understatement), balancing will no longer be something to worry about. And by not focusing in speed on any warframe, the movement would be toned down(slightly), which remedies the issue of gameplay being interfered by the movement while still keeping a core strenght of the game.

As an example for this system:

A player goes into conclave, and in their loadout they see that they can choose any warframe or weapon, let`s say he`s a weird person, so he picks a Volt, this Volt (in my ideal balancing eyes) is modded for range and survivability (instead of speed), and as for weapons he chooses an Arca Plasmor, which is modded for more status chance, but less overall damage (don`t ask me how that`s possible, I have no idea if it can even be done, but I think that`s a nice role for such a weapon), and so on...

With this system in place, I do believe that, not only will more players go play it for the sense of freedom in their arsenal, but also will solve whichever balancing issue or gameplay annoyances that the conclave has at the moment, if it is done right. 

 

And about that "doing it right" part:

On 2019-10-21 at 4:29 PM, ixidron92 said:

 

The new Conclave should first release with a limited starting roster. More Warframes and weapons can be added once balance is achieved. The key is to assign functional roles and release new Warframes over time.

This would be the perfect plan in case DE decides to make a PVP update (let me dream, please), it would ensure that the balancing of each weapon and warframe is on-point, and if they also add incentives for PVE players to play it (the 30 minute boosters from my previous post, and as suggested by Tyreaus: Formas, Riven silvers and relics), it would absolutely revitalize conclave, making the mode more accesible and rewarding to play for litteraly everyone.

And as for those who don`t think DE will ever touch conclave again, I say yes, that`s true, now allow me to go back to bed to cry a bit more while I question why do I even care so much about this game.

Maybe someday they will do it.

 

Someday

Edited December 5, 2019 by Lightel03
Cause I put the sexy in dyslexic, and cause english is my third language, so sorry

[IApollyonI]

Conclave has a fair amount of issues, but the single thing that absolutely breaks it is the existence of certain overpowered weapons and abilities which make everything else obsolete. This drains all the fun from the game if you don't enjoy playing with cheese loadouts.

To illustrate my point, I have noticed that players know the names of people who use the worst cheese and will simply leave lobbies the moment those people join. The players I see leaving include players whom I consider to have a high level of experience in Conclave.

So at one moment one finds themselves in a full lobby, which is a rarity to begin with. Cheeselord A joins and the lobby is empty a minute later. 

Guys, do you understand how dysfunctional this is?

Edited January 24, 2020 by IApollyonI