Yet another, but plausible, TITANIA suggestion

[YsanneIsard]

A plausible Titania rework

This is Titania, the pixie, the unseen.  <- This is BS

Titania is a deadly and mischievous addition to any squad, but don't take my word for it Tenno.

 

TLDR:
Replace [Lantern](3) with a stealthy offensive dash. Her [3] is a slower, redundant version of her [1] ability and its CC gimmick slows the pace of gameplay. A stealthy offensive dash is more thematically appropriate and can provide her the tools she needs to be an acceptable choice for stealth missions while also enhancing her current use as a spitfire-murder-pixie.

 

The actual post:
Since everyone else likes posting their Titania rework ideas, I thought I’d share my two cents. I went at this wanting to enhance the way she is currently played (i.e. Razorwing) with some QoL suggestions and only one major ability change (her [3]). Her other abilities I’m actually content with, conceptually speaking, and I think they just need some small touch ups.

My biggest issues with Titania have always been with how cumbersome her abilities could be and THE FACT THAT A FREAKING PIXIE WAS BAD (read not optimal) AT STEALTH MISSIONS, ESPECIALLY GIVEN HER DESCRIPTION.

So in normal rework-post fashion, I’m going to list her abilities and make my suggestions.

[Spellbind][1]
Honestly spellbind is pretty solid for a [1]. While killing things is preferred to CC, it is a strong CC ability and the effect of providing status immunity to yourself and allies is really good. I like having this as a toolbox ability.
            How to make it better – I’m not the first to say this. Make this easier to apply on allies.

[Tribute][2]
I’m excited for the upcoming changes implementing DR and the ability for razorflies to pick up the buffs. I’m fine with some of the buffs not being S-tier but a little extra from the ability would make it more worthwhile.
            How to make it better – If cast in Razorwing this ability should summon 1/2 razorflies. This gives me a good reason to cast the ability and a way of gaining razorflies if they die. Having to recast her [4] just to get razorflies ruins the pace of combat nor does it feel like a well-designed ‘weakness’ of the warframe.

Skipping [Lantern][3] for now

[Razorwing][4]

I like this ability. Just make the other abilities better in this form.

[Lantern][3]  Just rid of this
1. As a CC it is slower than her [1]. REDUNDANT and SLOW
2. The enemy floats off and becomes useless CC. INCONSISTENT
3. The explosion damage is kinda meh. SUBPAR DAMAGE
4. The grief caused by people not disabling it. GRIEF TOOL

Suggested replacement

[PH – Invisible Pixie Dash (IPD)][3]  <- Someone suggest an actual name.
This ability would fit Titania thematically as a speed and stealth ability. It’s essentially Itzals [Blink] but she can (1) go through lasers; (2)  it provides a second or two of invisibility; and (3) it is a melee attack. This ability would also provide an efficiency buff if you quickly recast it (zipping from one enemy to the next). The ability should also utilize the Diwata (i.e. Diwata stat stick) as the Diwata is overshadowed by Dex Pixia.

This would definitely be a powerful ability but it really isn’t all to ridiculous. With single activations the energy cost is high and with chain activations (likely with crowds) it would still be less OP than her pistols. So why use it?

In a stealth situation like a spy vault: Titania would be able to get past lasers and take out targets. The invisibility duration should be very short. Just long enough to hide or IPD to the next target. This is a stealth fairy zipping from target to target and sneaking into a fault. It seems appropriate.

In an open field situation: This ability would be good if/while Dex Pixia is reloading. You get into melee range but the bonus from stealth helps to protect you. If you chain several IPDs (i.e. getting the efficiency bonus) then this becomes a method of getting the Razorwing Blitz buff up while also maintaining a fast combat pace and the feeling of being a fast murder pixie.

*This COULD function without the invisibility if Titanias movements and this ability were quiet.*

Also, this ability works whether or not she’s in Razorwing.

 

So yeah, that’s where I’m at conceptually in addressing my issues with Titania. I just want to keep up her fast pace and give her the stealth a faerie deserves. Having a dash move would mean a more balanced stat build which I think is good for a warframe as it does promote build diversity rather than a single BiS build.

This doesn't quite solve her endgame issues but I certainly would enjoy playing her more in the  endgame if I didn't need to recast her [4] just to get razorflies back.

 

Edited October 22, 2019 by YsanneIsard
Typos

[selig_fay]

Latern is a good concept. I don't understand why you want to remove Latern and leave a useless Tribute. Either way, you're playing with simple numbers too. You didn't make spellbind any more useful. You've added some nice functionality to Tribute, but it only works in razorwing, which doesn't make it useful. You gave simple ability to invisibility and this well. However, do you know that all archwings will get itzal blink? Maybe Titania will get it too, which will make your ability a duplicate. And you haven't solved any razorwing problems because you think the ability is good, even though it isn't.

Apart from solving the problems with spy mission, which is already not a problem for Titania (I speak like a person who goes through most spy missions on her), I don't see that any problem has been solved. After your makeover nothing will change because people will use razorwing all the time and Tribute for Buff and maby razorfly. This is the way in which Titania plays now. 

Oh, and since we're talking about spy missions, Titania's only problem is that you can't turn off your razorfly and they set alarms. And I don't understand why you didn't highlight this particular issue. 

[YsanneIsard]

I guess I'll try to address these in order. I did mention that I was content with the concepts of her 1,2, and 4. I think there is definitely room for improvement on the abilities but not really a need to completely change them (i.e. how the tribute ability works is fine, but YES, the buffs from that ability should be addressed)

1. Lantern and Spellbind are both CC but Spellbind, imho, is the better one. As an instant CC and a status immunity buff it is plenty useful and appropriate as a [1] ability. It's a toolbox ability so it may not always be used but I am glad it's there when I need it (I typically use it for status immunity).

2. Tribute buffs do need adjusting.

3. I assumed, and still assume, that the archwing changes won't apply to Titania's Razorwing. Even if they did, the ability I described is a an attack and not just movement. I would not mind having both.

4. Razorwing is a good ability.

5. All warframes can do spy missions. Some are better than others. Octavia with a boombox is better suited for sneaking than '...Titania, the pixie, the unseen.' Part of my issue if the flavor/thematic factor. She doesn't have any remarkable abilities when it comes to stealth.

6. I had considered the issue of razorflies as a stealth issue but not having a solution I left it out. It wouldn't be an issue when not in Razorwing which is going to happen because of interacting with consoles. If pressed for a solution I'd say make the razorflies reactive, that way they don't fly off on their own when trying to be sneaky.

[selig_fay]

27 минут назад, YsanneIsard сказал:

1. Lantern and Spellbind are both CC but Spellbind, imho, is the better one. As an instant CC and a status immunity buff it is plenty useful and appropriate as a [1] ability. It's a toolbox ability so it may not always be used but I am glad it's there when I need it (I typically use it for status immunity).

If you play at level 30, then why do you use control at all? Spelbind is an ability that makes opponents harder to kill.

29 минут назад, YsanneIsard сказал:

2. Tribute buffs do need adjusting.

Corpus has no melee enemies. You can't maintain buffs all the time. This ability is simply useless. And I think you forgot about the fact that it reduces enemy damage by 70%, because this ability only affects 1 enemy. This ability is really poorly designed.

30 минут назад, YsanneIsard сказал:

3. I assumed, and still assume, that the archwing changes won't apply to Titania's Razorwing. Even if they did, the ability I described is a an attack and not just movement. I would not mind having both.

Razorwing has 4 components. Razor fly-which give the best CC. Dex pixie and Divata-for damage. Archwing mode for mobility. 50% evasion for survival. Titania needs to get buffs that archwings get, otherwise razorwing won't make sense. Rhino has better protection, control and damage.

38 минут назад, YsanneIsard сказал:

4. Razorwing is a good ability.

No, it's not. Razorwing has many bugs and limitations that interfere with the normal game. 

39 минут назад, YsanneIsard сказал:

5. All warframes can do spy missions. Some are better than others. Octavia with a boombox is better suited for sneaking than '...Titania, the pixie, the unseen.' Part of my issue if the flavor/thematic factor. She doesn't have any remarkable abilities when it comes to stealth.

I already spoke about this in another topic. Fairies have a lot of concerts. For example, there are fairies who are fallen angels who do not adhere to the side of heaven and hell. They have more than just stealth abilities. Angels are very powerful beings. There are fairies who have powers of illusion. There are fairies who have the ability to transform. Celtic fairies do not use magic, but devices in the form of plants and animals (Hello razorwing) 

Moreover, the most popular concept is a small fairy support, which has nothing to do with stealth. 

Once again, I'm not against stealth mechanics. But you change the Latern I use now with Letz. And it's very similar to the Wukongs cloud. But the Wukong cloud does more than just mobility and invisibility, because it's healing itself and Wuclone, it's positioning itself and Wuclone, it's invulnerability, it's status cleansing. 

43 минуты назад, YsanneIsard сказал:

6. I had considered the issue of razorflies as a stealth issue but not having a solution I left it out. It wouldn't be an issue when not in Razorwing which is going to happen because of interacting with consoles. If pressed for a solution I'd say make the razorflies reactive, that way they don't fly off on their own when trying to be sneaky.

I use razorwing as a mobility ability on spy missions. Razor fly attract the attention of enemies and it can cause alarm. If you say to keep them hidden when you're in invisibility, then that's a different problem because I want to be invisible, but I want to use razorfly to protect an object, for example. You solve the problem of one mission, but do worse on the others.

 

 

[peterc3]

2 hours ago, YsanneIsard said:

This ability would fit Titania thematically as a speed and stealth ability.

She is neither a speed nor a stealth frame.

[ShasOBorkan]

13 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

She is neither a speed nor a stealth frame.

From the wiki:

Quote

This is Titania, the pixie, the unseen.

Titania is a deadly and mischievous addition to any squad, but don't take my word for it Tenno. - Lotus

Quote

DUST BLOOM
Titania gains +25% Bullet Jump and Rolling distance. Bullet jumping also creates a trampoline that lasts 5 seconds and grants the Upsurge buff, giving the same +25% distance to Bullet Jump and Rolling maneuvers performed in the area for her allies. Successive Dust Blooms do not cause the previous instances to disappear, therefore being able to grant the whole squad a consistent buff to their travel momentum.

You're incorrect.

[selig_fay]

6 минут назад, ShasOBorkan сказал:

This is Titania, the pixie, the unseen.

Titania is a deadly and mischievous addition to any squad, but don't take my word for it Tenno. - Lotus

In my location is:

Цитата

Отправляйтесь в полёт вместе с этой озорной феей.

translate:

Цитата

Go on a flight with this mischievous fairy.

I don't think it's worth taking the word "unseen" literally because you can't see when you're blind. And that's what Latern does.

Edited October 22, 2019 by zhellon

[YsanneIsard]

5 minutes ago, zhellon said:

If you play at level 30, then why do you use control at all? Spelbind is an ability that makes opponents harder to kill.

Then don't use control at level 30? Like I said, I personally use it more for the status immunity. If the argument has to be made, this ability becomes more effective at higher levels.

 

23 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Corpus has no melee enemies. You can't maintain buffs all the time. This ability is simply useless. And I think you forgot about the fact that it reduces enemy damage by 70%, because this ability only affects 1 enemy. This ability is really poorly designed.

Um. Prod Crewmen? The buffs last two minutes and are refreshable. They will be even easier to maintain with the coming update. I'm also sure that they meant Titania will get a damage reduction buff rather than reducing the damage of a single enemy. It will probably be best to wait until we get the release this week and see how it goes.

 

32 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Razorwing has 4 components. Razor fly-which give the best CC. Dex pixie and Divata-for damage. Archwing mode for mobility. 50% evasion for survival. Titania needs to get buffs that archwings get, otherwise razorwing won't make sense. Rhino has better protection, control and damage.

No, it's not. Razorwing has many bugs and limitations that interfere with the normal game. 

Razorwing makes sense and while it is VERY similar, Razorwing is not archwing. 

Rhino has better protection and I'd agree that his control is better. Even with his damage buff he cannot out dps an equivalently built/modded Titania using Dex Pixia.

Razorwing is a great ABILITY. I do agree with you that how it works in the game engine has caused many headaches.

37 minutes ago, zhellon said:

I already spoke about this in another topic. Fairies have a lot of concerts. For example, there are fairies who are fallen angels who do not adhere to the side of heaven and hell. They have more than just stealth abilities. Angels are very powerful beings. There are fairies who have powers of illusion. There are fairies who have the ability to transform. Celtic fairies do not use magic, but devices in the form of plants and animals (Hello razorwing) 

Moreover, the most popular concept is a small fairy support, which has nothing to do with stealth. 

Once again, I'm not against stealth mechanics. But you change the Latern I use now with Letz. And it's very similar to the Wukongs cloud. But the Wukong cloud does more than just mobility and invisibility, because it's healing itself and Wuclone, it's positioning itself and Wuclone, it's invulnerability, it's status cleansing. 

I agree that there are lot of different faeries in the world. I'm not a specialist but she matches up with the typical fairy stereotypes that I know from, well, fairy tales. I'm from the US.

With all of the faeries in the world, DE certainly has options when it comes to abilities.

Wukong does have a great invisibility. I would not mind if Titania had such a good skill but I would like it to be different and more appropriate to fairy lore.

 

From your latest post, I see that there is a bit of a language barrier and that the regional description of Titania is not the same. As this discussion continues, I will try to write assuming that my words will be automatically translated. That way I can minimize any misunderstandings.

 

[peterc3]

39 minutes ago, ShasOBorkan said:

You're incorrect.

She makes herself tiny, not invisible. Her passive is speedy, yes, but her kit does not revolve around being fast and stealthy.

[Telfaroth]

Citation

[Lantern][3]  Just rid of this
1. As a CC it is slower than her [1]. REDUNDANT and SLOW
2. The enemy floats off and becomes useless CC. INCONSISTENT
3. The explosion damage is kinda meh. SUBPAR DAMAGE
4. The grief caused by people not disabling it. GRIEF TOOL

 

Yes, there is redondance between 1 and 3 for floating point of view and CC.

The explosion of flowing target used to provide few damage because it is floating too far from mobs.

 

So, I would rather propose that, the capacity 3 have an opposite effect to 1 when cast first.

The target stay/fall on the floor and cannot moved. So I will called this capacity  "The fall".

The capacity will still have the same effects except floating.

If the capaticy 1 is cast again a mobs under effect of capacity 3; it will start to float in the air.

If the capacity 3 is casted on a mobs under effect of capacity 1; it will fall.

It is simple, make the capacity 3 more efficient and looks like a magic of fairy.

 

Remark: perharps the casting cost of the capaticy 1 after 3 or 3 after 1 can be reduced or nul.

 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Telfaroth

[ShasOBorkan]

4 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

She makes herself tiny, not invisible. Her passive is speedy, yes, but her kit does not revolve around being fast and stealthy.

Stealth does not mean invisibility, and you concede she is speedy. Nobody claimed her kit 'revolves around being fast and stealthy' particularly (though it includes making enemies blind and having mobility). OP claimed these ends would be thematic, and the wiki quotes show this is true.

You are incorrect on this point.

Edited October 22, 2019 by ShasOBorkan

[YsanneIsard]

2 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

She makes herself tiny, not invisible. Her passive is speedy, yes, but her kit does not revolve around being fast and stealthy.

This is part of my suggestion in that some speed and stealth could be added to her kit and it would be reasonable and appropriate for a fairy.

[YsanneIsard]

3 minutes ago, Telfaroth said:

 

Yes, there is redondance between 1 and 3 for floating point of view and CC.

The explosion of flowing target used to provide few damage because it is floating too far from mobs.

 

So, I would rather propose that, the capacity 3 have an opposite effect to 1 when cast first.

The target stay/fall on the floor and cannot moved. So I will called this capacity  "The fall".

The capacity will still have the same effects except floating.

If the capaticy 1 is cast again a mobs under effect of capacity 3; it will start to float in the air.

If the capacity 3 is casted on a mobs under effect of capacity 1; it will fall.

It is simple and will make the capacity 3 more efficient and looks like a magic of fairy.

 

Remark: perharps the casting cost of the capaticy 1 after 3 or 3 after 1 can be reduced or nul.

 

This doesn't really fix the fact that she has two abilities devoted to CC. 

For me this would not be a combination I would use or want. If I'm looking at enemies, I'd like to be killing them rather than making them go up and down. If I have to CC then just one cast and being done is what I'd want.

[selig_fay]

3 минуты назад, YsanneIsard сказал:

Prod Crewmen

• Цитата

  As of Update 17.0, Prod Crewman disappear after level 15, similar to how Crewmen disappear after level 15. This causes an extremely limited level range for Prod Crewman Eximus to spawn.

  3 минуты назад, YsanneIsard сказал:

  than reducing the damage of a single enemy

  Цитата

  If the target survives, their damage output is reduced by 25% for 6 / 8 / 10 / 12 seconds.

  5 минут назад, YsanneIsard сказал:

  Razorwing makes sense and while it is VERY similar, Razorwing is not archwing.

  Yes. But you can't deny that archwing mode is the only fun thing.

• 7 минут назад, YsanneIsard сказал:

  Rhino has better protection and I'd agree that his control is better. Even with his damage buff he cannot out dps an equivalently built/modded Titania using Dex Pixia.

  But you don't need that huge DPS. My Trinity can kill an Eidolon limb in 1-2 shots. Yes, I use Odonata for this, but it's still less expensive than Dex Pixia + razorwing blitz. Plus my survival rate is good unlike dps Titania.

  10 минут назад, YsanneIsard сказал:

  Razorwing is a great ABILITY. I do agree with you that how it works in the game engine has caused many headaches.

  As a player who has spent almost 200 hours for Titania, I want to say that this ability is bad because it does not have the scaling with weapons and equipment as normal frames. You can kill 1 enemy, causing huge damage, and you can kill 5 enemies at the same time with weak weapons. Plus the problem of energy, which does not allow you to tune in to other abilities. And without energy and razorwing Titania is no better than Ember.

• I don't mind invisibility for Titania. But her set must undergo significant changes. Just you gave feedback about the fact that Her set is ok, though it is not.

•  

   

[YsanneIsard]

Ah. Yeah, You are right about the crewmen not spawning. Then I agree that either the ability gets adjusted to make this buff easier to obtain and / or adjust some corpus enemies to give this buff.

Also, I was thinking about the damage reduction from Thorns (when it is changed this week) and not the weakness applied to the target. My bad.

Combining Aviator and the 50% evasion from Razorwing has certainly made Titania more survivable. Adding other DRs while in the air or using Adaptation makes Titania very sturdy if needed. This has helped reduce the need to get the buff.

16 minutes ago, zhellon said:

• Yes. But you can't deny that archwing mode is the only fun thing.

I certainly admit that I play Titania always using Razorwing. It is fun and definitely how she was meant to be played.

16 minutes ago, zhellon said:

• But you don't need that huge DPS. My Trinity can kill an Eidolon limb in 1-2 shots. Yes, I use Odonata for this, but it's still less expensive than Dex Pixia + razorwing blitz. Plus my survival rate is good unlike dps Titania.

• As a player who has spent almost 200 hours for Titania, I want to say that this ability is bad because it does not have the scaling with weapons and equipment as normal frames. You can kill 1 enemy, causing huge damage, and you can kill 5 enemies at the same time with weak weapons. Plus the problem of energy, which does not allow you to tune in to other abilities. And without energy and razorwing Titania is no better than Ember.

• I don't mind invisibility for Titania. But her set must undergo significant changes. Just you gave feedback about the fact that Her set is ok, though it is not.

I do disagree with some things. Dex Pixia allows for killing a lot of enemies very quickly. While it does not scale, the dps of Dex Pixia is effective against level 150 enemies. As an exalted weapon ability, Razorwing is very strong compared to others. While her raw dps is not as high as Mesa, Titania has the upper hand in terms of mobility and unrestricted targeting. If Mesa's Peacemakers can be considered good then I think that the pros and cons of Razorwing make it comparable.

Ever since they raised her energy cap, I have had no issues using Titania with 130% efficiency and with duration over 200%.

[Telfaroth]

I thought that make the target fall on the floor will help this capacity 3 to be more efficient; but in my mind I thought, it still cost too much energy for mitigated effect.

It will become "ok" for the cost of a capacity 1 or 2.

So, we can maintain this capacity as a long time cast (long time press button) or a second time cast of the capacity 1 and give a new capacity 3 to titania.

 

Remark: i don't like to put in the trash something already built.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Telfaroth

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Lantern is a better ability than Spellbind...when it’s not pinged off into space that is. It has a larger area of effect and doesn’t Ragdoll the things you are trying to kill.  So if your gonna replace any ability, replace Spellbind.

[Andele3025]

7 hours ago, peterc3 said:

She makes herself tiny, not invisible. Her passive is speedy, yes, but her kit does not revolve around being fast and stealthy.

Razorwing Blitz lets her outspeed the "to be nerfed/given to all AW due to its effective speed" Itzal Blink. If that is not fast then Volt and Gauss are snails.

[YsanneIsard]

2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Lantern is a better ability than Spellbind...when it’s not pinged off into space that is. It has a larger area of effect and doesn’t Ragdoll the things you are trying to kill.  So if your gonna replace any ability, replace Spellbind.

I disagree. The effect isn't instant and for 75 energy it only offers CC that is inconsistent versus Spellbind which is 25 energy and provides status immunity. Since CC isn't as useful I'd rather keep the cheaper one with more utility.

[Andele3025]

2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Lantern is a better ability than Spellbind...when it’s not pinged off into space that is. It has a larger area of effect and doesn’t Ragdoll the things you are trying to kill.  So if your gonna replace any ability, replace Spellbind.

>worse more expensive gara 4 that gives 1 enemy a superior rhino skin/actual invincibility that doesnt store damage being better than a longer range harder cc with ally status immunity

So according to you Atlas 4 slam or Wu clone augment are better Rhino Stomps then too?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

40 minutes ago, YsanneIsard said:

I disagree. The effect isn't instant and for 75 energy it only offers CC that is inconsistent versus Spellbind which is 25 energy and provides status immunity. Since CC isn't as useful I'd rather keep the cheaper one with more utility.

It’s range is terrible. Spellbind may be instant but you’re not gonna affect many enemies and those that you do are more likely to fly away the second you hit them.

Edited October 23, 2019 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[selig_fay]

Not argue. The tribute is terrible. Better to make a buff system based on a Lantern!

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

10 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s range is terrible. Spellbind may be instant but you’re not gonna affect many enemies and those that you do are more likely to fly away the second you hit them.

I think a decent compromise then would be to keep Spellbind but increase it's range, rather than keep Lantern. Or merge them into a single ability and improve them.

[selig_fay]

1 час назад, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- сказал:

I think a decent compromise then would be to keep Spellbind but increase it's range, rather than keep Lantern. Or merge them into a single ability and improve them.

spellbind is a simple ability of negative control(because targets are harder to kill) and good support. Latern is a more complex control that forces targets to group together for easier killing. Do you really think that removing good control and increasing the range of bad control will positively affect to Titania?

 

 

[TheKazz91]

I will honestly never understand how so many people think spell bind is better than lantern? Like if you just stopped the lanterns movement or maybe made it so the only thing that pushed it was Dewata it would be infinitely better CC than spell bind 100% of the time. If you want to keep the status immunity from spell bind just make allies within the attract range immune to status

Edited October 23, 2019 by TheKazz91