we need a level cap for enemies.

[maddragonmaster]

ok lets address the elephant in the room that has been here for years. warframes enemy level scaling has always been the main reason of why players react to positive or negatively to any reworks or chances to any given weapons with some people being quick to call them either over powered or trash. 

so my suggestion is ditch the endless level scaling since it is an obvious a mess and a set in enemy level cap of 1-100. and then DE can determine how the enemies armor, health, shields, and damage is determined by this and then set weapons, frames, ect. according to the  enemies new scaling. 

that way DE can have an easier method of balancing weapons, warframes, archwings, and what ever else they feel like adding. 

anyways everyone is free to say my idea is terrible or not. i am just bluntly stating the point whether or not it has been stated before. 

as for the difficulty method, i don't really care as long as it not going too much to the point where i feel like i am getting nothing done. as long as there is enough chance of wining if i play right then i am fine. if the difficulty is too aggressive then it is not something i would enjoy.

Edited October 22, 2019 by maddragonmaster

[CodeUltimate]

Just now, maddragonmaster said:

ok lets address the elephant in the room that has been here for years. warframes enemy level scaling has always been the main reason of why players react to positive or negatively to any reworks or chances to any given weapons with some people being quick to call them either over powered or trash. 

so my suggestion is ditch the endless level scaling since it is an obvious mess and a set in enemy level cap of 1-100. and then DE can determine how the enemies armor, health, shields, and damage is determined by this and then set weapons, frames, ect. according to the  enemies new scaling. 

that way DE can have an easier method of balancing weapons, warframes, archwings, and what ever else they feel like adding. 

anyways everyone is free to say my idea is terrible or not. i am just bluntly stating the point whether or not it has been stated before. 

as for the difficulty method, i don't really care as long as it not going too much to the point where i feel like i am getting nothing done. as long as there is enough chance of wining if i play right then i am fine. if the difficulty is too aggressive then it is not something i would enjoy.

lolplz no stop killing the game 

[Alcatraz]

There is a level cap though. I've seen them and it's 9999. You can't go higher unless you get a fluke.

[Hello]

Great way to kill the game if they capped it to 100. This would get rid of any incentive to play especially in a longer run. I can't speak for others, but doing longer runs is for that challenge since I sure don't do it for the rewards or lack there of. I guess if they did this, it would give me a reason to uninstall and find a different game to spend time in.

[Zelmen]

6 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

set in enemy level cap of 1-100

lol, XP doesn't get good until ~100. Most "End Game" missions only start around 50-60. I want to start at 100.

[(PSN)cardinalphoenix]

2 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

ok lets address the elephant in the room that has been here for years. warframes enemy level scaling has always been the main reason of why players react to positive or negatively to any reworks or chances to any given weapons with some people being quick to call them either over powered or trash. 

so my suggestion is ditch the endless level scaling since it is an obvious a mess and a set in enemy level cap of 1-100. and then DE can determine how the enemies armor, health, shields, and damage is determined by this and then set weapons, frames, ect. according to the  enemies new scaling. 

that way DE can have an easier method of balancing weapons, warframes, archwings, and what ever else they feel like adding. 

anyways everyone is free to say my idea is terrible or not. i am just bluntly stating the point whether or not it has been stated before. 

as for the difficulty method, i don't really care as long as it not going too much to the point where i feel like i am getting nothing done. as long as there is enough chance of wining if i play right then i am fine. if the difficulty is too aggressive then it is not something i would enjoy.

So...in an attempt to address this respectfully...players are already really upset that the game is far too easy. In part due to things like Rivens and Corrupted Mods. You cap enemy level at 100, the game literally gets no harder at all for those players working on their gear and such, and just stays super easy.

Now...other side of the coin...endless enemy scaling has gotten ridiculous and silly as an endgame activity. People are only doing it because that's where the level 2000, 5000, 9000, however high it goes, are located. Which isn't to say missions should immediately feature level 5000-9000 level enemies, but if you cap enemy level at 100, the only effective way of balancing all players out is to severely nerf the living HECK out most top end players into having literally barely any power at all. Like, I laugh when people whine about a Riven disposition reducing their crit from 100% to 95% on a Riven, like dude, you're still devastating, please stop. But the amount of "balance" that would occur there by capping enemies at level 100 would just be horrific.

Players need more paths to that type of power before they need an enemy level cap. Some nerfs to some mods will take place, sure. It's inevitable. But if players are getting overall more paths to a lot of power, but it's not nearly as bad as just nerfing the bulk of the top end and brushing one's hands off.

 

[maddragonmaster]

6 minutes ago, CodeUltimate said:

lolplz no stop killing the game 

got any better ideas? this game has been running in circles trying to chase the mythical content that many many vets have been crying for yet DE can't do that because the scaling of everything is so borked it is impossible for any hint of difficulty. if something needs nerfed or buffed then it is best if they have a general idea of what they want that weapon to do.

while i said everyone is free to say  my idea is bad, i didn't say "go ahead and mock the idea." so if you got anything good then feel free to say it.

1 minute ago, Alcatraz said:

There is a level cap though. I've seen them and it's 9999. You can't go higher unless you get a fluke.

well that still seems a bit excessive. it would still be more better picking a more manageable level cap then going over board with the level cap.

[Alcatraz]

Just now, maddragonmaster said:

well that still seems a bit excessive. it would still be more better picking a more manageable level cap then going over board with the level cap.

It's a good cap. That way if you ever get the fancy to go really far, you won't lack a challenge to do it. If you do reach the cap, then congratulations. you're in the .01% player base that has.

 

[Xaero]

I'd rather get rid of enemy levels completely and split them into tiers.

[MartianGHunter]

Just now, --Brandt-- said:

Great way to kill the game if they capped it to 100. This would get rid of any incentive to play especially in a longer run. I can't speak for others, but doing longer runs is for that challenge since I sure don't do it for the rewards or lack there of. I guess if they did this, it would give me a reason to uninstall and find a different game to spend time in.

 

Just now, Zelmen said:

lol, XP doesn't get good until ~100. Most "End Game" missions only start around 50-60. I want to start at 100.

I think you guys missed OP's point level cap is so that DE has something to balance the game around. Exp and all that will obviously get changed including enemy EHP and DPS to match a fixed scale that Devs can set a baseline for what difficulty or late game enemies should be.

For OP I agree to a degree I think they should state what level of enemy they balance around so maybe they state for the enemies are balanced at level 150/200 based on current scaling and everything above that they don't care(basically if you play beyond that don't expect it to be a fair fight) 

[SneakyErvin]

For the people saying that such an idea would kill the game... stop being so narrowminded.

A change to a level cap like the OP presents is a viable solution to the problem. If they want further content beyond the level 100 cap they can simply switch over to a mutator system for specific modes. Things that adds new variables to the missions much similar to how sorties have them. They'd just have to make them more interesting and fitting. Or they can add a wide ability system for mobs that improves as the difficulty increases.

Other games do it very well, why should WF be stuck in a muddy track that leads the game nowhere?

[maddragonmaster]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)cardinalphoenix said:

So...in an attempt to address this respectfully...players are already really upset that the game is far too easy. In part due to things like Rivens and Corrupted Mods. You cap enemy level at 100, the game literally gets no harder at all for those players working on their gear and such, and just stays super easy.

Now...other side of the coin...endless enemy scaling has gotten ridiculous and silly as an endgame activity. People are only doing it because that's where the level 2000, 5000, 9000, however high it goes, are located. Which isn't to say missions should immediately feature level 5000-9000 level enemies, but if you cap enemy level at 100, the only effective way of balancing all players out is to severely nerf the living HECK out most top end players into having literally barely any power at all. Like, I laugh when people whine about a Riven disposition reducing their crit from 100% to 95% on a Riven, like dude, you're still devastating, please stop. But the amount of "balance" that would occur there by capping enemies at level 100 would just be horrific.

Players need more paths to that type of power before they need an enemy level cap. Some nerfs to some mods will take place, sure. It's inevitable. But if players are getting overall more paths to a lot of power, but it's not nearly as bad as just nerfing the bulk of the top end and brushing one's hands off.

 

note i basically stated set the scaling of the enemy according to the 1-100 with 100 being endgame level. also i stated so that weapons, warframes, and what else would be scaled. 

3 minutes ago, Alcatraz said:

It's a good cap. That way if you ever get the fancy to go really far, you won't lack a challenge to do it. If you do reach the cap, then congratulations. you're in the .01% player base that has.

 

but then players are expecting that a weapons or warframe should do massive amounts of damage or it is trash. but eh. i am just stating what i see.

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

I'd rather see a rework to enemy health and armor scaling. Balance that cluster and then maybe look at other ideas.

[maddragonmaster]

5 minutes ago, MartianGHunter said:

 

I think you guys missed OP's point level cap is so that DE has something to balance the game around. Exp and all that will obviously get changed including enemy EHP and DPS to match a fixed scale that Devs can set a baseline for what difficulty or late game enemies should be.

For OP I agree to a degree I think they should state what level of enemy they balance around so maybe they state for the enemies are balanced at level 150/200 based on current scaling and everything above that they don't care(basically if you play beyond that don't expect it to be a fair fight) 

thank you. and ok sure. fair point.

[maddragonmaster]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

I'd rather see a rework to enemy health and armor scaling. Balance that cluster and then maybe look at other ideas.

the issue will persist. just be thrown down deeper into the level scaling.

[CaptainMinty]

The suggestion of a level cap has to remember that currently level 100 is easy for a good portion of players. In reality, we need a stricter scaling. Right now, enemies don't remotely deal any damage until level 70. Right now, I can take a sniper and unload enough damage to murder five mobs with one bodyshot. Balance is a little unruly when the players themselves deal insanely high damage.

My suggestion? Cap it at 100. Massively reduce player damage output, revamp armor to have a maximum mitigation of 75% Focus more on health than armor. Right now, raw numbers is all that protects the corpus and infested from player damage. It doesn't help them. Armor, on the other hand, offers such a massive wall when the scaling gets high enough that we rely on Corrosive projection to deplete it, or corrosive damage. Weakening armor's effectiveness is a surefire way to help balance, but we must remember that our damage is far from okay to focus just on health. Tuning down numbers has to happen.

[peterc3]

If there's a level cap, endless missions will be removed.

[maddragonmaster]

1 minute ago, peterc3 said:

If there's a level cap, endless missions will be removed.

actually no they wouldn't. it would be more about endurance, and how far you can go without making mistake more then anything. 

[Autongnosis]

Unless you mean to rebalance the level curve heavily OR doing blanket nerfs to the players at the same time, capping the enemies at lv 100 will kill any meaningful fight in the game. 

Lv 100s are fodder. For real. They can barely put up resistance if you are sleeping. An half assed loadout can face enemies twice that level, a good one can go to lv 400 ish solo or more... 

[Cibyllae]

27 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

got any better ideas? this game has been running in circles trying to chase the mythical content that many many vets have been crying for yet DE can't do that because the scaling of everything is so borked it is impossible for any hint of difficulty. if something needs nerfed or buffed then it is best if they have a general idea of what they want that weapon to do.

The issue is the equation DE uses to scale enemies. They would have to make changes to the equation, which would in turn most likely affect the function those equations are inside of. Which would then affect the arguments of the function, and affecting the arguments of that function might affect another function asking for different types of arguments. So its not as simple as you might think.

 

EDIT: The actual solution to DE's problems is to get a team to start getting rid of spaghetti code so that they can make modular changes, instead of worrying how changing a function that deals with enemy scaling might affect the code to choose a node on the star map.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Cibyllae

[maddragonmaster]

1 minute ago, Autongnosis said:

Unless you mean to rebalance the level curve heavily OR doing blanket nerfs to the players at the same time, capping the enemies at lv 100 will kill any meaningful fight in the game. 

Lv 100s are fodder. For real. They can barely put up resistance if you are sleeping. An half assed loadout can face enemies twice that level, a good one can go to lv 400 ish solo or more... 

my main point. the game is focusing too much on being a hoard killer game to the point is pointless to ask for any difficulty. if you want difficulty without it being what i view as a horrible mess then they got to chance how things work.

[peterc3]

3 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

actually no they wouldn't. it would be more about endurance, and how far you can go without making mistake more then anything. 

DE has made it abundantly clear they aren't in the endurance run game. It's a fun "feature" for many people but it will never be a design goal for the game.

There is no level cap, and associated enemy stats at that cap, that would not be completely solved by the existing frames and equipment we have. The endless scaling is the only reason those endless modes are allowed to be endless.

[belanya]

It ll never happen. It ll require a bit of work and some reflexion.

And they ll have to rethink endless mission.

Way too much effort.

[(PSN)cardinalphoenix]

19 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

note i basically stated set the scaling of the enemy according to the 1-100 with 100 being endgame level. also i stated so that weapons, warframes, and what else would be scaled. 

Fair point, but...the amount of work to essentially redefine what "Level 1 enemy" and "Level 100 enemy" is feels like infinitely more work, as well as not solving the problem at the core, than say...putting more power in weaker players' hands by making Rivens more available and reworking how they're cycled.

Things would balance out quicker and easier, and you wouldn't need to redefine scaling by calling it "1-100" instead of "1-9999."

[trst]

While I'm not against such an idea I don't think such a solution would be remotely feasible. It would require the removal/hard-capping of all sources of scaling damage, reevaluating all sources of our damage to be in line, potentially making endless modes no longer endless, and regular balancing changes (yes, nerfs) to fix anything new or discovered that falls out of line.

And even if it all would be a better long term change for the health of the game I don't think the game would survive such changes to begin with. Too many people are attached to excessive damage and endless runs.

 

But really I feel the specific issue isn't necessarily enemy scaling but that over the years DE has added in and allowed tools to remain that deal with said scaling. All while nothing has been done to address the discrepancy between the minuscule fraction of the game that is endless modes which also hold a considerable amount of the game's progression and rewards compared to the entire rest of the game.

Endless modes and endless enemy scaling at this point is almost a necessity to deal with the tools we've been given to deal with said scaling. But hopefully the melee changes will be a step in addressing that but I won't be holding my breath until we see anything finalized.

Edited October 22, 2019 by trst