we need a level cap for enemies.

[Oreades]

An enemy level cap would honestly be a great place to start because that literally gives the devteam a place to start from. Instead of just sorta guessing where on the massive curve they should be scaling. 

If DE can cap the level and then bring players in line with that power curve (ostensibly through "buffing" enemies" because anything that is percieved as a nerf will cause people to lose their #^!@#^! and at the end of the day an enemy buff is the same as a player nerf it's just semantics). 

Then they might even finally be able to work on enemy scaling in a way that feels good tho they definitely run the risk of it feeling super samey if it's done wrong. Players would still feel powerful but they wouldn't be watching youtube while toggling a few buttons powerful. 

[Kuestenjung]

vor 39 Minuten schrieb MartianGHunter:

 

I think you guys missed OP's point level cap is so that DE has something to balance the game around.

Point is, DE already has level to balance around and that is 80 - 100 , since they introduced Sorties.

Another point is, DE doesn´t know how to balance the game anymore and I can´t blame them for that. The game is just to big with to many frames and weapons and enemy types to be properly balanced.

[Zelmen]

51 minutes ago, MartianGHunter said:

I think you guys missed OP's point level cap is so that DE has something to balance the game around. Exp and all that will obviously get changed including enemy EHP and DPS to match a fixed scale that Devs can set a baseline for what difficulty or late game enemies should be.

Nope. My point was xp focused. There is no good spots to have a relaxing XP farm. Weapons get a break with ESO but Frames are SOL. You can do stealth kills but I don't always want to put that much effort in. If they can come up with something to OP content that works for everyone. Sure. But capping at 100 and playing with armor and other stats might make XP even more of a nightmare. That is purely on the fact that we have been asking for harder content. Half the group wants it because of Epen, and others because harder mobs have better xp. Scaling down the current system to fit into 100 levels does fix the issue that they don't let us jump into content at X degree of difficultly. I think that is there main issue to fix. Make a hardcore mode that start at 2x the difficulty.

[Oreades]

3 minutes ago, Zelmen said:

Make a hardcore mode that start at 2x the difficulty.

See the problem there is twofold, 

1) it divides the playerbase which is something you never want to do if you can avoid it. 

2) the second they add a "hardcore" mode the goalpost is going to shift right to "we should be getting better rewards" and if they do that then you have taken a soft divide which is already bad enough and turned it into a hard divide because anything that isn't playing hardcore mode will be seen as a waste of time. 

Which will in all probability kick off a domino effect where most of the seasoned players stick to hardcore mode and most of the newbs stick to normal "we don't have access to that yet mode" which will turn "we don't have access to that mode" into a veritable ghost town because everyone who can will be playing something else. 

Now that doesn't outright sound like a problem but here's the thing and the crux that makes F2P games work and why all those non paying scrubs are absolutely key to your games survival. No one want's to play an empty MMO, so you're going to see a drop in new player retention and as the grizzled old farts vets drop off one by one, there won't be nearly the numbers there where previously to replace them. At which point the whole F2P ecosystem crumbles. 

congratulations you just murdered Warframe ❤️

[DOOMPATRIOT]

Finish at lvl 100?

We want it to start at that lvl, WTF?

Shout out to the endurance/ endgame community.

[(NSW)Katsuro]

make it lv 200 and let DE start balancing from there and add higher mr weapons that can go beyond that lv in seasonal raids for railjack 😃

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

A level cap would be terrible as it means oh you can 1 hit these lv 100 too bad that's all we have screw your thirst to face tougher and tougher enemies.  It like in borderlands if all enemies stay at lv 20 and never scaled with you but you keep getting skill points and weapons drop at higher levels boring

[MartianGHunter]

44 minutes ago, Zelmen said:

Nope. My point was xp focused. There is no good spots to have a relaxing XP farm. Weapons get a break with ESO but Frames are SOL. You can do stealth kills but I don't always want to put that much effort in. If they can come up with something to OP content that works for everyone. Sure. But capping at 100 and playing with armor and other stats might make XP even more of a nightmare. That is purely on the fact that we have been asking for harder content. Half the group wants it because of Epen, and others because harder mobs have better xp. Scaling down the current system to fit into 100 levels does fix the issue that they don't let us jump into content at X degree of difficultly. I think that is there main issue to fix. Make a hardcore mode that start at 2x the difficulty.

Kinda have to disagree you can level frames in public fairly easily on Sedna defence (which is how I level new frames) in about 20 rounds (booster on obviously) and these are level 50ish enemies.

This hardcore mode (fantasy) won't fix the issue because if you read my comment you would have understood that balancing enemies and player power changes what we will perceive as difficult. The issue at the moment is that this current system is basically a numbers game with players having a ludicrous amount of firepower that if you go on any EHP calculator for enemy health enemies at level 200 have millions of EHP each and of we can 2 - 3 shot said enemies there is an issue with power your players have which is my point.

It's clear the game was never designed(key word here) to cater that kind of gameplay because above that level enemies literally one shot players heck endurance runners will be the first to admit that they either hide in a corner spam abilities deleting enemies before they even have line of sight or use some or other cheese mechanic to get that far. And I am sure majority of players will 100% agree that never have we seen fun and engaging gameplay at that level because it was never meant to be played at that level.

But DE and they are 100% at fault for this gave us way to much power when honestly we didn't need it and now they can't give us difficult and engaging content cause they messed up the balance.

[maddragonmaster]

2 hours ago, peterc3 said:

DE has made it abundantly clear they aren't in the endurance run game. It's a fun "feature" for many people but it will never be a design goal for the game.

There is no level cap, and associated enemy stats at that cap, that would not be completely solved by the existing frames and equipment we have. The endless scaling is the only reason those endless modes are allowed to be endless.

then why have a level cap of 9999? it's kind of pointless having the levels reach that high when hardly anyone would be bothered to even try.

[maddragonmaster]

besides i'll let you in with a little joke. 

monster hunter series is able to make you sweat with 1 to a handful of monsters while warframe needs a hoard of level 200+ mobs to even attempt to make someone sweat. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by maddragonmaster

[maddragonmaster]

sorry for that bit. but what i am saying is that monster hunter series doesn't need to have a level system. yet they have challenging monsters and the only lock those monsters behind a hunter rank system. no levels for the hunter or monster and no benifits that fallow that. the only thing that has a level system is the palicos.

so in other words. you don't need to have level 1-9,999 enemies to even challenge you if the system is well balanced. if the game was balanced around 1-100 leveled enemies or even 1-200 level enemies you would still get a form of challenge at the end leveled enemies.

[spirit_of_76]

2 hours ago, Kuestenjung said:

Another point is, DE doesn´t know how to balance the game anymore and I can´t blame them for that. The game is just to big with to many frames and weapons and enemy types to be properly balanced.

the bigger problem is where to balance the game and how bad the math is in the some of the core aspects (part of the issue you stated).  grineer health scales as a function of ax^4 not ax^2 like all other enemies CO, stealth Gas, bane 2x slash/gas scaling... a lot of things needs to be fixed to balance the game and if they did so the change would be to the foundation requiring the rest of the game to be changed at once the task could take years to do and they don't have that many man hours to spare.  then there is who to pander to the power fantasy or the min max grinder?... all of this combined makes the game all but impossible to balance.  

there are ways to start fixing the game one is change the accuracy and damage equations so that they are more logarithmic this make the one shot threshold a much higher level but still keeps the difficulty at lower levels relatively the same (also helping frames like Oberon who suffer from builds being effective with in narrow level ranges requiring multiple and often conflicting builds to maintain effectiveness)

[TentownsRaid]

Having a level cap would be a nice idea for balance. Sadly due to a certain side of the community they want "Challenge."Another issue is there is so many algorithms when it comes to the simplest thing that those need to be redone before a level cap can be even started to be developed. You would also need something to stop meta builds from farming so mutaters after a certain time would be needed.

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

No thanks, basically with a level cap some people will be able to easily just stay in a mission forever and based on what the devs think is "hard", to them is just trivial to a lot of us.

Also staying any longer in an endless mission will be pointless as it will never get harder and the rewards don't change either. As well as no longer be able to test your limits, thus making the game extremely boring and unfulfilling.

 

 

[bibmobello]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

No thanks, basically with a level cap some people will be able to easily just stay in a mission forever and based on what the devs think is "hard", to them is just trivial to a lot of us.

Also staying any longer in an endless mission will be pointless as it will never get harder and the rewards don't change either. As well as no longer be able to test your limits, thus making the game extremely boring and unfulfilling.

 

 

Some people stay indefinitely on some (old)survival missions but i don't think it's possible on the new ones with hundred of toxic auras, energy leechers and bubbles nullifiers.

Edited October 23, 2019 by bibmobello

[-CdG-Zilchy]

6 hours ago, Alcatraz said:

There is a level cap though. I've seen them and it's 9999. You can't go higher unless you get a fluke.

Actually Eximus go to 10099.

[Nichivo]

8 hours ago, maddragonmaster said:

actually no they wouldn't. it would be more about endurance, and how far you can go without making mistake more then anything. 

 

6 hours ago, maddragonmaster said:

you don't need to have level 1-9,999 enemies to even challenge you if the system is well balanced. if the game was balanced around 1-100 leveled enemies or even 1-200 level enemies you would still get a form of challenge at the end leveled enemies.

 It would be no different than solo Endless Mot survival is currently. How long can I play without falling asleep? The only difference is at level 100 if you make a mistake you are less likely to instantly die, which would be even more sleep inducing. 

 I enjoyed day 1 release Orb Vallis.  I would pick a spot and just sit for hours, and farm toroids. Then it was nerfed to the point I could watch a movie while farming roids, while others still complain it's hard.

The only thing this will do is make the endless challenge seekers find something else, and others even less likely to ever seek a challenge.

The new age of gamer is causing modern games to become soft, no struggle, no desire to improve, gimme success now.  I would donate quarters just to watch Today's gamers play Contra from 92, or even Dragons Lair from 83.I expect nerf Kuva Lich threads to be rampant after they get released.

Hard content at the end of the day is still content for everyone, just that some will have to work harder, and put in more effort to get there, but once there you get the sense of accomplishment. Why can't games have a sense of Accomplishment anymore? 

[-Equi-]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb maddragonmaster:

ok lets address the elephant in the room that has been here for years. warframes enemy level scaling has always been the main reason of why players react to positive or negatively to any reworks or chances to any given weapons with some people being quick to call them either over powered or trash. 

so my suggestion is ditch the endless level scaling since it is an obvious a mess and a set in enemy level cap of 1-100. and then DE can determine how the enemies armor, health, shields, and damage is determined by this and then set weapons, frames, ect. according to the  enemies new scaling. 

that way DE can have an easier method of balancing weapons, warframes, archwings, and what ever else they feel like adding. 

anyways everyone is free to say my idea is terrible or not. i am just bluntly stating the point whether or not it has been stated before. 

as for the difficulty method, i don't really care as long as it not going too much to the point where i feel like i am getting nothing done. as long as there is enough chance of wining if i play right then i am fine. if the difficulty is too aggressive then it is not something i would enjoy.

WaRfRaMe iS tOo dIfFiCuLt.

No, stop, let the vets do their things in Highlevel and don´t steal the reason from lot of people to play this game.

[-Equi-]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Zilchy:

Actually Eximus go to 10099.

Nope they fixed it. Everything goes up to 9999.

[HugintheCrow]

13 hours ago, maddragonmaster said:

set in enemy level cap of 1-100.

The game already has an enemy level cap at 100. But it's not a hard cap, it's a soft cap.

Have you ever seen a mission with higher level than that? Exactly.

Any reasonable person will never face enemies higher than level 100. If you do, you know it's time to hit the extraction.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

6 minutes ago, -VS-Equi said:

Nope they fixed it. Everything goes up to 9999.

When did they fix that? During the event I saw them at that level.

[-Equi-]

Gerade eben schrieb Zilchy:

When did they fix that? During the event I saw them at that level.

Puhh dont know the date but I think it was after the last event.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just now, -VS-Equi said:

Puhh dont know the date but I think it was after the last event.

Ah ok, cheers for the info.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

100.....are you high? How about being logical and meeting in the middle? 

You would at least be taken more seriously if you said 1000.

[maddragonmaster]

11 hours ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

100.....are you high? How about being logical and meeting in the middle? 

You would at least be taken more seriously if you said 1000.

because 1000 is too much to manage without something breaking. 100-200 is for easier way to manage. so why take your insults and desire for far too much challenge that could be sensibly offered habit and get out of here.

i am ok with people saying no. but when someone starts throwing insults is where i draw the line. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by maddragonmaster