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maddragonmaster

we need a level cap for enemies.

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14 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

Seriously. To be perfectly honest, no real change is going to happen anyways, cause the people trying to fight OP or misunderstand him are the majority at this point.

And those are the same people that complain that there is no challenge aswell.

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5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And those are the same people that complain that there is no challenge aswell.

the irony is entertaining. they say "we want challenge!" but then they fight tooth and nail when a change happens. 

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The really funny part people fail to realize is enemy level is just a line of code and could be any number. DE could put the enemy levels in 32nds and 32/32nds would be the same as 9999 because its an arbitrary number with no real meaning.

Edited by (XB1)BlueDually
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16 hours ago, toafarmer said:

Short answer: no.

Long answer: no, we don't.

 

guess the you guys don't need things like hard missions, and difficult and challenging content. guess your fine with mission requirements that require you to kill already easy mobs faster like that Halloween lantern event thats going on. 

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A level cap for enemies doesn't facilitate better balancing or makes it any easier. If they wanted to make lv100 properly challenging they could do so, the fact that enemies above lv 100 exist doesn't change that. A much greater hurdle is enemy scaling and also player scaling. Fixing that comes WAY before any arbitrary limitations to how strong an enemy can get.

If we eventually reach the point where endless missions were severely limited in how far it was possible to go because enemies past lv100 are nigh impossible to deal with, then you can think about in limiting how high a level an enemy can get, but its like the very last step of a LONG process of changes and the least improtant one when creating challenging content. It might not even be needed depending on how the game would end up after a huge numbers pass. Starting with a level cap would at best backfire as it might not be necessary or helpful at all.

 

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3 minutes ago, Raikh said:

A level cap for enemies doesn't facilitate better balancing or makes it any easier. If they wanted to make lv100 properly challenging they could do so, the fact that enemies above lv 100 exist doesn't change that. A much greater hurdle is enemy scaling and also player scaling. Fixing that comes WAY before any arbitrary limitations to how strong an enemy can get.

If we eventually reach the point where endless missions were severely limited in how far it was possible to go because enemies past lv100 are nigh impossible to deal with, then you can think about in limiting how high a level an enemy can get, but its like the very last step of a LONG process of changes and the least improtant one when creating challenging content. It might not even be needed depending on how the game would end up after a huge numbers pass. Starting with a level cap would at best backfire as it might not be necessary or helpful at all.

 

well to be honest my thoughts on a level cap was to primarily is to have there be a clear defined limit of all of our gear. and i can't really see that happening if DE keeps the level ceiling as high as it is. there is allways going to be a player that tries to squeeze in a reason why this weapon or warframe should be this strong so as to reach levels beyond level 100 because they are gluttons for difficulty and challenging content. even if the levels 1-100 where fixed to where they offered a proper challenge there will always be the players that want to go further into the levels going beyond 101+ till they can't and then they whine and complain when their favorite weapons and warframe can't take them further.

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1 minute ago, SilverRook said:

remove base damage mods ....... *sip* 

difficulty UP !

and then players find more better ways to cheese the content. and then difficulty goes back down.

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vor 1 Minute schrieb maddragonmaster:

well to be honest my thoughts on a level cap was to primarily is to have there be a clear defined limit of all of our gear. and i can't really see that happening if DE keeps the level ceiling as high as it is. there is allways going to be a player that tries to squeeze in a reason why this weapon or warframe should be this strong so as to reach levels beyond level 100 because they are gluttons for difficulty and challenging content. even if the levels 1-100 where fixed to where they offered a proper challenge there will always be the players that want to go further into the levels going beyond 101+ till they can't and then they whine and complain when their favorite weapons and warframe can't take them further.

The thing is perfect balance is preeetty much unachievable. And from a mathematicla standpoint you will never really come to a point where you can defeat a lv 100 enemy but can't defeat a 101 enemy unless there was an arbritrary jump in difficulty where its just not possible in a reasonable amount fo time or possible to live long enough to kill said enemy. And as long as you have power discrepancy between frames, which you will always have, people will quite obviously want to push past 100 if 100 is balanced to be killable by all, because some frames will have it way easier to do so and minmaxers will want to find the limit for a specific frame.

Obviously people will always complain about why their frame isn't stronger, sometimes even when they are already top tier. Trying to artifically limit the discrepancy of power to quench that isn't healthy for the game imo.

If you however have balance around lv100 where your playground is, where your rewards for endgame are and where people come prepared and minmaxed, then ti doesn't really matter if a very storng frame cna push to 150, while you average reaches its limits at 120, thats just a speedrunner's sport then effectively and a personal challenge unbound from rewards and if people really wanted that to be compettive you can categorize the success by frames. So an Ember beating 120s isn't directly compared to a Mesa killing 150s. Monster Hunter sppedruns work like that for instance.

I think it boils down to closing the gap between what is rewarding and accessible and what is possible. Its not like the design is fundamentally flawed, its just what the gap between player power and the intended playground for the players to use that power are too far apart. Some players will always try to push beyond and I think they should be able to do so, its just that the sheer power of the players shouldn't be magnitudes above the content they are aligned to, so it is truly trivial.

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12 minutes ago, Raikh said:

The thing is perfect balance is preeetty much unachievable. And from a mathematicla standpoint you will never really come to a point where you can defeat a lv 100 enemy but can't defeat a 101 enemy unless there was an arbritrary jump in difficulty where its just not possible in a reasonable amount fo time or possible to live long enough to kill said enemy. And as long as you have power discrepancy between frames, which you will always have, people will quite obviously want to push past 100 if 100 is balanced to be killable by all, because some frames will have it way easier to do so and minmaxers will want to find the limit for a specific frame.

Obviously people will always complain about why their frame isn't stronger, sometimes even when they are already top tier. Trying to artifically limit the discrepancy of power to quench that isn't healthy for the game imo.

If you however have balance around lv100 where your playground is, where your rewards for endgame are and where people come prepared and minmaxed, then ti doesn't really matter if a very storng frame cna push to 150, while you average reaches its limits at 120, thats just a speedrunner's sport then effectively and a personal challenge unbound from rewards and if people really wanted that to be compettive you can categorize the success by frames. So an Ember beating 120s isn't directly compared to a Mesa killing 150s. Monster Hunter sppedruns work like that for instance.

I think it boils down to closing the gap between what is rewarding and accessible and what is possible. Its not like the design is fundamentally flawed, its just what the gap between player power and the intended playground for the players to use that power are too far apart. Some players will always try to push beyond and I think they should be able to do so, its just that the sheer power of the players shouldn't be magnitudes above the content they are aligned to, so it is truly trivial.

fair enough. i can see that my problems is flawed. i just feel 101+ levels as a distraction so my idea was to get ride of the distraction. but if there is a better idea that can effectively work then it is fine by me. this is one of the examples i was looking for when saying that people where free to tell me that my idea had flaws in it. its a shame that only a few people listen to it. 

though. i guess i might of not been clear on it. not sure. i always stress when i feel like i didn't successfully explained what i was getting across.

Edited by maddragonmaster
spelling error

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vor 18 Minuten schrieb maddragonmaster:

fair enough. i can see that my problems is flawed. i just feel 101+ levels as a distraction so my idea was to get ride of the distraction. but if there is a better idea that can effectively work then it is fine by me. this is one of the examples i was looking for when saying that people where free to tell me that my idea had flaws in it. its a shame that only a few people listen to it. 

though. i guess i might of not been clear on it. not sure. i always stress when i feel like i didn't successfully explained what i was getting across.

From a player perspective it could be a distraction, from a dev perspective not so much. The Dev just needs to set a standard somewhere and then let players figure out the rest. Some players would certainly ask "but what about 101 and 102..?." and so on but just the same other swould ask "why can I not go past 100 even if just for fun?".

It is an infinite grind afterall. And somewhere rewards have to end, somewhere player power has to end. Good Endgame is from my experience defined by a sweetspot between the possible and the accessible. Players should feel engaged and rewarded for minmaxing gear and being skillful in play. However the rewards should not top out at the limits of possibility because only super few players will be that skilled with thet perfect gear suited for the task. On the other hand it shouldn't be too easy (like it is now) because progression becomes irrelevant and people don't know what to do with all the stuff they've got and the game becomes stale and boring.

Most issues are with the numbers and some broken interactions. But since there is not much competition going on in WF the public theorycrafting is in shambles and your average player is horrible undereducated what the games mechanics are concerned. There are very knowledgable and skilled players out there, but the information isn't readily available.
Since the game is also so all over the place that it draws in a lot of different players. Some players see this more as a "normal" shooter, others as Space Dynasty Warriors and thus their feedback and desires are drastically different.
A lot of dedicated WF players also lack experience from other endgame based games to see the notable differences that make it so hard for WF currently to implement a strong endgame (or even what that is).

And the issue with a lack of knowledge is always, that even if people notice that something is wrong, its hard to figure out what exactly and how to fix it.

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On 2019-10-26 at 4:43 PM, maddragonmaster said:

guess the you guys don't need things like hard missions, and difficult and challenging content. guess your fine with mission requirements that require you to kill already easy mobs faster like that Halloween lantern event thats going on. 

Guess you lack English skills. Also the Halloween event is crap.

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idk why you got so many laugh reactions. that’s how the game should have been designed in the first place. To be frank, the endless scaling was a case of shortsightedness on DE’s part. But a very select group of players decided to run with it, and DE had an excuse not to fix it. It’s of course only enabled by rampant power creep, but everyone ignores that when they complain that the game is too easy. They want to be overpowered while somehow also being challenged at the same time. When you suggest squashing the scale down so there isn’t such a ridiculous chasm between new player and “end game,” they are too arrogant to see that you are suggesting they be given exactly what they want, just with a different and more sustainable coat of paint.

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OP, your idea is not terrible at all, it's basically how any other game I've ever played works. Of course it's just a thought thrown to discuss, implementing it would be a completly different beast, but it would be a solid foundation.

Seriously, from the top of my head, I've never played a game that had any sort of balance that didn't use such structure. 

What is terrible is coming here, reading all the posts in response and realizing how selective some user's reading skills are.

Admitedly, I've only read some posts of the first page, but for f* sake if it was enough. 

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I agree with the idea, if the scale is fixed, I think developers could play more around the enemy encounters and construct a good difficulty curve, without relying on simply slowly increasing their hp, armor and damage numbers. I think obviously the new level 100 enemies shoud be harder than current lvl 100 enemies, but hopefully not through pure stats, but maybe extra abilities and mutators. However, OP, you should also consider than doing this properly requires A TON of work.

Moreover, warframe has this innate problem with difficulty which can't really be fixed without serusly toning down of the fun factor of the game - different waframe combos. I mean, a team of 4 rhinos stacking rhino roar buffs on each other is already enough to stomp (no pun intended) everything in their way due to absurd damage. Frames like trinity can make the entire team essentially immortal and have unlimited energy, as long as the player doesn't forget to press the ability buttons. These are just a few examples, and I don't really see a good counterplay from the enemies. Developers can nerf all the powerful abilites, but then they will make the game much less fun and enjoyable for most players.

On an unrelated note, I love how everytime I go to the forums, there are a ton of "tough guys" saying how "easy" level 100 and 200 enemies are, yet when I am actually playing the game, I see players getting bodied on a regular basis in arbitrations and even sorties (regardless of MR), where enemy levels are barely around the 100 level mark...

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DE already does that. They balanced everything around sortie, arbitration 40 waves / 40 mins or ESO 8 waves.
Because that is the popular cap that most players will attain try to attain, max reward for smallest effort.

Anything else is up to you.

I used to do 2 hour survivals but I have stop partaking that as my play time has gotten lower.
But I would really prefer not to deprive the fun of other players by adding a level cap.

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Am 22.10.2019 um 19:45 schrieb maddragonmaster:

ok lets address the elephant in the room that has been here for years. warframes enemy level scaling has always been the main reason of why players react to positive or negatively to any reworks or chances to any given weapons with some people being quick to call them either over powered or trash. 

so my suggestion is ditch the endless level scaling since it is an obvious a mess and a set in enemy level cap of 1-100. and then DE can determine how the enemies armor, health, shields, and damage is determined by this and then set weapons, frames, ect. according to the  enemies new scaling. 

that way DE can have an easier method of balancing weapons, warframes, archwings, and what ever else they feel like adding. 

anyways everyone is free to say my idea is terrible or not. i am just bluntly stating the point whether or not it has been stated before. 

as for the difficulty method, i don't really care as long as it not going too much to the point where i feel like i am getting nothing done. as long as there is enough chance of wining if i play right then i am fine. if the difficulty is too aggressive then it is not something i would enjoy.

The only thing I really enjoy is to fight lv 300 - 1000 enemies, you casuals can stay in your sorties but leave my endgame alone. It's not fun oneshoting enemies all the time and that is exactly what I do till lv 300

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Am 23.10.2019 um 21:11 schrieb maddragonmaster:

because 1000 is too much to manage without something breaking. 100-200 is for easier way to manage. so why take your insults and desire for far too much challenge that could be sensibly offered habit and get out of here.

i am ok with people saying no. but when someone starts throwing insults is where i draw the line. 

What breaking just because you cant handle high lv doesn't mean the rest of us can't! With some of my setups I can actually one shot lv 1000! That's not a challange

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7 hours ago, C104 said:

What breaking just because you cant handle high lv doesn't mean the rest of us can't! With some of my setups I can actually one shot lv 1000! That's not a challange

besides you are setting up for a meta build that shouldn't be realistically doing that in game, that's whats killing the game. cheesy meta with cheese strategies. you are shooting yourself in the fricking foot for over meta'izing your dang builds. what i stated was the idea of simplifying the amount of levels so that there is a domino effect that causes everything to fall into place. because setting a proper limit to how far a person goes while set the limit of how strong a given warframe, weapons, companions, and archwing is so that there less of a frustrating balancing act. half of the reason why new content is talking for ever to come out is because of this balancing act DE has to do. as i said before those high numbers are distractions and should be gone so to have realistic sense of challenge and difficulty. 

if you can't accept that the scaling of enemies, and over concentration of meta is part of the problem in general then you might as well not deserve any form of challenge or difficulty at all.

besides if you where paying attention to the thread besides looking at what sets you off the most then you should of realized that i was open to other interesting ideas.

if power creep is a problem then create a ceiling and create a floor to prevent a power creep or a drop in power. it is just common sense.

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and if that doesn't satisfy anyone craving for difficulty then we can have like the old difficulty scale method that was in plenty of video games. where we have the base 100 for normal difficulty and 200 for hard difficulty, and 300 for hard core. with the only thing that players get out of 200 and 300 difficulty just being satisfaction of overcoming it. the idea was started from remembering monster hunter worlds tempered and arch tempered but after remembering how some games had a difficulty setting i just went with that. 

besides why not have a difficulty setting that both sets the scaling of mobs to be harder and filter out hardcore players and regular players its not like they enjoy each others company. and the reason i don't use vet anymore is because referring to the players that demand the loudest for challenging content just feels wrong now. considering i have been around this game for 2 or 3 years now and that i have a moderate amount of knowledge of warframe i am aprouching vet status.

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vor 13 Stunden schrieb maddragonmaster:

besides you are setting up for a meta build that shouldn't be realistically doing that in game, that's whats killing the game. cheesy meta with cheese strategies. you are shooting yourself in the fricking foot for over meta'izing your dang builds. what i stated was the idea of simplifying the amount of levels so that there is a domino effect that causes everything to fall into place. because setting a proper limit to how far a person goes while set the limit of how strong a given warframe, weapons, companions, and archwing is so that there less of a frustrating balancing act. half of the reason why new content is talking for ever to come out is because of this balancing act DE has to do. as i said before those high numbers are distractions and should be gone so to have realistic sense of challenge and difficulty. 

if you can't accept that the scaling of enemies, and over concentration of meta is part of the problem in general then you might as well not deserve any form of challenge or difficulty at all.

besides if you where paying attention to the thread besides looking at what sets you off the most then you should of realized that i was open to other interesting ideas.

if power creep is a problem then create a ceiling and create a floor to prevent a power creep or a drop in power. it is just common sense.

I am using a frame only 5% of the player base uses (Gara), I use the least popular sniper rifle Vulkar wraith. 

Or I use mirage with the underused zarr the admittedly kinda meta pox and the glaive prime.

These are not meta weapons nor meta frames.

I simply got gud and invested heavily with rivens combinations and around 100+ forma. In this game there exists no real meta and everything can work if you know what you are doing

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A lvl cap huh?

I don't see much reason for it. It would only effect endless missions and that's it.

Every mission is maximum lvl 30-40. For endless missions you have to stay in for a long time to reach the 100s. Only sorties start at lvl 100 and even then that's only the 3rd mission.

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Infinite level scaling has been a crutch that DE has been leaning on way too much to cover the complete lack of balance and rampant powercreep this game has. But, you can't really balance an infinite scale, and you can't have an endgame if there is no end. So, ideally, a strict level cap is exactly what this game needs. But practically, its not really feasible anymore. They would have to rework pretty much the entire game to make it work, which would take way too long. If they had actually bothered to do something like this from the start, and stuck to it, it would have been great. But now its too late.

Realistically, I think the best thing they could do is to redo the level scaling throughout most of the game. The level range of the star chart is one of the many old parts of the game desperately in need of an update. Currently, it only goes from level 1 to about level 40. This means you can outlevel the biggest chunk of content in the game very quickly. If they redid the scale, and bumped the max up to level 100 or so, it would be really help. And you wouldn't have to spend hours in an endless mission just to fight properly leveled enemies anymore.

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